Time for Tankers to face the TRUTH.

[hearditall]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I agree with you CC.  I just see the higher the pick (and more of them too) the more likely we will have players, given the right environment, develop into elite ones.  If we have middle of the road prospects, then even given the best development, we end up with an average team.  

High end players come from all over the draft. Some never drafted...

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, hearditall said:

High end players come from all over the draft. Some never drafted...

Agreed.  That's why it's important to have extra picks.  Our chances are better of finding the top players, even if from later in the rounds.  

[DSVII]

8 minutes ago, hearditall said:

High end players come from all over the draft. Some never drafted...

 that mindset is operating under the assumption that a datsyuk, lundquist, gaudreau exists in every draft year AND that they'll fall to us 

 

With all do respect. It isn't a given. In fact. It's gambling on a bigger lottery ticket w worse odds against than the draft lottery imo

 

[Crabcakes]

4 minutes ago, DSVII said:

Imo. You're taking it for granted that a datsyuk, lundquist, gaudreau exists in every draft. AND that they'll fall to us 

 

With all do respect. It isn't a given. It's gambling on a bigger lottery ticket w more odds against than the draft lottery imo

I agree.  The thing is, you don't know where these hidden gems are or if they even exist in a given year.  FWIW Datsuyk was drafted 171st and Lidstrom was 53rd (Horvats' #)

 

You certainly can't count on them.  Just like your retirement plan can't rely on lottery tickets.

 

All you can do is set things up in a way that guys in your system have the best chance of becoming NHLers.  I'm not talking about stars.  Guys like Alex Burrows come out of the woodwork every year.  They just need the opportunity.  149 OA Adam Gaudette made Buttons' top 50 players outside of the NHL list.  Let's give this guy the best opportunity to be the next Hansen (287 OA)

[Riviera82]

40 minutes ago, Crabcakes said:

Picks are good Alf.  And I'm a competer......kind of.....

 

What the argument really is is Drafting vs Development.

 

Drafting = Tankers = more and better picks

 

Development = Competing = better experience makes the players you have already improve

 

Drafting means getting 1 or 2 or 3 more players who are good at 17 years old

 

Developing means helping all 23 roster players get better.

 

It's clearly complicated and better to do both things well.  This is really where I sit fwiw.  Competing isn't the only thing that makes your team develop.  Culture, mentorship and other things help too

 

Mike Babcock really wants his Leafs to make the playoffs because, he says, the experience will do his kids a world of good.  Duh!!

Mike Babcock is right. But what's good for Toronto right now isn't necessarily good for Vancouver. 

 

Toronto already has a lot of top talent on their roster whereas the Canucks dont. We've got some pretty good younger players over here but nobody that could really be considered a cornerstone, aside from Horvat. The way I see it is we've got a good crop of complimentary players at the moment but no actual stars, again aside from Horvat.

 

i believe our team should really start competing when it's the young guys who are driving the bus, like Toronto. Once the Sedins and maybe a few others are gone then that will start to happen.

[Crabcakes]

1 hour ago, Riviera82 said:

Mike Babcock is right. But what's good for Toronto right now isn't necessarily good for Vancouver. 

 

Toronto already has a lot of top talent on their roster whereas the Canucks dont. We've got some pretty good younger players over here but nobody that could really be considered a cornerstone, aside from Horvat. The way I see it is we've got a good crop of complimentary players at the moment but no actual stars, again aside from Horvat.

 

i believe our team should really start competing when it's the young guys who are driving the bus, like Toronto. Once the Sedins and maybe a few others are gone then that will start to happen.

I knew this was coming Riviera82 .  So good on you.  You are right.  The Leafs have some real nice core pieces.  Obviously Matthews.  But Nylander, Marner, Reilly and others.  The Canucks have better pieces than they are given credit though.  Horvat is the main guy in the NHL right now.  But there is also Stecher, Tryamkin, Hutton, Granlund, and Baertschi.....we'll see how these guys come along.

 

We'll be seeing how all these boys and the Sedins etc bring along Boeser, Juolevi, Virtanen who are the stars of the future.  None of this is 100% but there really is quality on the way.  There are many championship teams without generational talents like have been drafted recently.

[CanadianRugby]

2 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

Picks are good Alf.  And I'm a competer......kind of.....

 

What the argument really is is Drafting vs Development.

 

Drafting = Tankers = more and better picks

 

Development = Competing = better experience makes the players you have already improve

 

Drafting means getting 1 or 2 or 3 more players who are good at 17 years old

 

Developing means helping all 23 roster players get better.  (and your AHL and ECHL affiliated players too if you set up things right)

 

It's clearly complicated and better to do both things well.  This is really where I sit fwiw.  Competing isn't the only thing that makes your team develop.  Culture, mentorship and other things help too

 

Mike Babcock really wants his Leafs to make the playoffs because, he says, the experience will do his kids a world of good.  Duh!!

 

 

They have a franchise player.  Canucks don't

They have 6 players in top 20 rookie scoring.  Canucks don't. 

Their team is full of rookies and is already better than Vancouver who is full of vets. 

Different teams.  Different skill level.  Different stages of rebuild. 

Toronto's aim from this season forward is to win as much as possible, end of story.  Vancouver is still using AHL level players on their #1 PP.  There's no point comparing them wanting to get playoff experience for their franchise player and top scoring rookies, to Vancouver's average youngsters. 

Canucks #1 goal should be getting the type of players that Toronto already has, it shouldn't be making the playoffs. 

[appleboy]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

They have a franchise player.  Canucks don't

They have 6 players in top 20 rookie scoring.  Canucks don't. 

Their team is full of rookies and is already better than Vancouver who is full of vets. 

Different teams.  Different skill level.  Different stages of rebuild. 

Toronto's aim from this season forward is to win as much as possible, end of story.  Vancouver is still using AHL level players on their #1 PP.  There's no point comparing them wanting to get playoff experience for their franchise player and top scoring rookies, to Vancouver's average youngsters. 

Canucks #1 goal should be getting the type of players that Toronto already has, it shouldn't be making the playoffs. 

Fans need to understand that it is rebuild time. It should now be all about the future.

[flickyoursedin]

Where did Toronto get all the majority of their top producing youth? Matthews 1rst overall, Marner 4th overall, Nylander 8th overall, Kadri 7th overall, Rielly 5th overall, and JVR 2nd overall. They've hit on a lot of their top picks and their management has done an adequate job at supporting this young talent with a decent supporting cast. Something Edmonton failed to do for so long but finally starting to do as well. We already have the foundation of a good supporting roster with our young core but aside from Bo and Boeser we need future elite talent for that top 6.

[Riviera82]

7 hours ago, Crabcakes said:

I knew this was coming Riviera82 .  So good on you.  You are right.  The Leafs have some real nice core pieces.  Obviously Matthews.  But Nylander, Marner, Reilly and others.  The Canucks have better pieces than they are given credit though.  Horvat is the main guy in the NHL right now.  But there is also Stecher, Tryamkin, Hutton, Granlund, and Baertschi.....we'll see how these guys come along.

 

We'll be seeing how all these boys and the Sedins etc bring along Boeser, Juolevi, Virtanen who are the stars of the future.  None of this is 100% but there really is quality on the way.  There are many championship teams without generational talents like have been drafted recently.

You make a fine point, Crab. Like I said before though, once it's the young guys driving the bus (like in Toronto), if we're truly competitive then, then that means the Canucks are ready. As of right now though this is still the "Sedin era" to an extent and we still lack a gamebreaker. You're right though that time will tell.

[JustRich]

I'm not a pro-intentional-tanker but i came across this today so..

 

[Crabcakes]

9 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

They have a franchise player.  Canucks don't

They have 6 players in top 20 rookie scoring.  Canucks don't. 

Their team is full of rookies and is already better than Vancouver who is full of vets. 

Different teams.  Different skill level.  Different stages of rebuild. 

Toronto's aim from this season forward is to win as much as possible, end of story.  Vancouver is still using AHL level players on their #1 PP.  There's no point comparing them wanting to get playoff experience for their franchise player and top scoring rookies, to Vancouver's average youngsters. 

Canucks #1 goal should be getting the type of players that Toronto already has, it shouldn't be making the playoffs. 

Typical how my actual point gets ignored (minimized) and a throw in supporting comment is the talking point.

 

Babcock says that competion helps development.  It's ironic that Benning said that too.  In the minimized part, I list lots of players who will benefit from playing meaningful games.

 

Bottom line, tanking ignores the damage that it does to players already on the roster.  Have you ever played on a team who got the crap kicked out of them week in week out?  I have and it's brutal.  It's soul destroying.  A team always has to try their best, some success and growth is important.

 

But if the players on the team right now don't matter.  Then tank away.

 

Here's my throw in line.....the Canucks will get a top 10 pick this year despite trying their best and being a hard working team and showing improvements mainly on the back end but players like Horvat, Baertschi and especially Granlund are coming along and all 3 look like they will be bona fide top 6 players.

[oldnews]

10 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

They have a franchise player.  Canucks don't

They have 6 players in top 20 rookie scoring.  Canucks don't. 

Their team is full of rookies and is already better than Vancouver who is full of vets. 

Different teams.  Different skill level.  Different stages of rebuild. 

Toronto's aim from this season forward is to win as much as possible, end of story.  Vancouver is still using AHL level players on their #1 PP.  There's no point comparing them wanting to get playoff experience for their franchise player and top scoring rookies, to Vancouver's average youngsters. 

Canucks #1 goal should be getting the type of players that Toronto already has, it shouldn't be making the playoffs. 

Thanks for the Laff.

I always enjoy the perspectives of Leafs fans.

Some things never change - shiny forwards make hockey teams.  The rebuildzdone!

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Thanks for the Laff.

I always enjoy the perspectives of Leafs fans.

Some things never change - shiny forwards make hockey teams.  The rebuildzdone!

Hate the friggin Leafs, but (of course) we know a lot about them, considering they are on TV every Saturday night, and we hear about them on TSN too.  They do have really good young talent.  Our Sedin led time is passed.  We need to do a full on, tear it back to the foundation, rebuild.  On our team, who do you see as part of our next core: Bo, Stecher, Tryamkin???

[oldnews]

11 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Hate the friggin Leafs, but (of course) we know a lot about them, considering they are on TV every Saturday night, and we hear about them on TSN too.  They do have really good young talent.  Our Sedin led time is passed.  We need to do a full on, tear it back to the foundation, rebuild.  On our team, who do you see as part of our next core: Bo, Stecher, Tryamkin???

I see a Leafs team that has it's shiny forwards already in their lineup.

What I'm curious about - that their tire-pumpers don't seem to realize - is how good the rest of their prospect pool is.  Because, you see, they've got their smurfy skilled forwards already in their lineup.  I like Kapanen but where is the rest of the push going to come from?  All those 4th round picks?  

Here's the irony as I see it - the rumours that they're shopping their Nylander to try to find someone that can play defense.  And the other irony - dump all the vets like Toronto!!!  But Polak is as old as Edler, Hunwick is older, and Robidas was 39.   And they're claiming waiver D again to patchwork their blueline.  Kidz love to focus on the shiny smurfs - but there's more to a hockey team and a 'rebuild' than collecting a couple Marners and Nylanders - or thinking that getting lucky in the lottery is a stroke of genius.  No, it's a horseshoe up the ass is what it is.

People here like to poopoo the Canucks as if they have nothing in their prospect pool - but forget that the majority of our young talent actually remains on the way.

I'd take Juolevi, Boeser, Demko, Gaudette over what the Leafs have on the way - any and every time.  And that's ignoring the fact that we just vetted half our blueline - Tryamkin, Stecher, Hutton = rookies and a sophomore.

"Core" talk is irrelevent.  It's semantics - like 'elite', or 'franchise player' or 'superstar' - it doesn't mean alien crap.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I see a Leafs team that has it's shiny forwards already in their lineup.

What I'm curious about - that their tire-pumpers don't seem to realize - is how good the rest of their prospect pool is.  Because, you see, they've got their smurfy skilled forwards already in their lineup.  I like Kapanen but where is the rest of the push going to come from?  All those 4th round picks?   People here like to poopoo the Canucks as if they have nothing in their prospect pool - but forget that the majority of our young talent actually remains on the way.

I'd take Juolevi, Boeser, Demko, Gaudette over what the Leafs have on the way - any and every time.  And that's ignoring the fact that we just vetted half our blueline - Tryamkin, Stecher, Hutton = rookies and a sophomore.

"Core" talk is irrelevent.  It's semantics - like 'elite', or 'franchise player' or 'superstar' - it doesn't mean alien crap.

I don't disagree that the Laughs smell.  They do have shiny bobbles currently playing in the NHL, and we don't.  I think that's a fact.  On our current roster, we have Bo, Stecher, Hutton, and Tryamkin.  Other than that, we are looking at guys, who have not played in the NHL, so are not proven.  I really believe we need some top picks or home runs.  Sure, maybe Boeser, Gaudette, Juiolevi, and Lockwood, might be great.  I'm hoping they will be. 

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I don't disagree that the Laughs smell.  They do have shiny bobbles currently playing in the NHL, and we don't.  I think that's a fact.  On our current roster, we have Bo, Stecher, Hutton, and Tryamkin.  Other than that, we are looking at guys, who have not played in the NHL, so are not proven.  I really believe we need some top picks or home runs.  Sure, maybe Boeser, Gaudette, Juiolevi, and Lockwood, might be great.  I'm hoping they will be. 

Meh.  And they're hoping their waiver wire backup goaltender is an improvement on the guy they paid through the nose for and then paid 5 x 5 million.

And they're hoping another waiver wire defenseman can be an upgrade on Frank Corrado.  They have their own problems - and have scarcely dealt with an injury all year.  I'd love to see that team if they lost merely one of their top 4 D.  

They're lucky they have Babcock, that's the last thing I'm going to say on the matter, because without him their fans would be in the usual uproar at this time of year, as those kids start to fade, and hockey shifts towards playoff mode, where I'm not sure you can win much with a patchy backend - and that's them when healthy.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

Meh.  And they're hoping their waiver wire backup goaltender is an improvement on the guy they paid through the nose for and then paid 5 x 5 million.

And they're hoping another waiver wire defenseman can be an upgrade on Frank Corrado.  They have their own problems - and have scarcely dealt with an injury all year.  I'd love to see that team if they lost merely one of their top 4 D.  

They're lucky they have Babcock, that's the last thing I'm going to say on the matter, because without him their fans would be in the usual uproar at this time of year, as those kids start to fade, and hockey shifts towards playoff mode, where I'm not sure you can win much with a patchy backend - and that's them when healthy.

I love watching the Leaf's lose.  Excepting this season, these past 10 years Saturday nights have been glorious.  

I don't think we need to intentionally tank.  Our team will finish bottom five without management's help.  What we need is to have some friggin luck at the draft lotto!

[oldnews]

Just now, Alflives said:

I love watching the Leaf's lose.  Excepting this season, these past 10 years Saturday nights have been glorious.  

I don't think we need to intentionally tank.  Our team will finish bottom five without management's help.  What we need is to have some friggin luck at the draft lotto!

I don't think people realize how much young blueline talent this team has in the system - and I'm not talking simply about Tryamkin, Stecher or Juolevi.

I also remember all the panic over having no defense prospects - for years - all the way up to about 18 months ago.

Now I'm not sure people have any idea how talented guys like Boeser or Gaudette are.

This team doesn't need handfuls of draft picks - it just needs a couple of it's young forwards to emerge as scorers at the NHL level.  People will just have to have a bit of patience regardless - but like I said - I'd take our top 5 prospects over what the Leafs have outside the NHL any and every time - not even close.

[thrago]

I don't consider myself a tanker although a lot here might.  What I believe is that the team needs really good asset management, where the team sits now.  By that I mean we need to trade older players especially expiring contracts for futures.  This could be Picks, prospects or younger less developed players.  If this means we do worse in the standings thats OK with me as our picks will get better.  I don't think we need to trade all our Vets as they help in development, however I do think that for the next couple years 2-3 should be traded each year.

 

I don't think we should intentionally try to lose although I don't think any player would do that anyways.  Signings like Eriksson don't bother me as they can be used to help the players develop as long as you aren't taking spots from prospects that are ready to make the jump. Bieksa is the only Vet I can remember us trading who didn't ask to be moved in the last 5 years or more.  It seems to me that if you have played on this team for 5 or more years you don't need a NTC as this organization has given you a job for life.  Your job security is better on the Canucks then in most unions. 

 

I think a lot of people on here that get labelled tankers are just like me.  They don't necessarily want the team to try to lose they just want to get the new core in place.