Warhippy Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 6 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: Alberta would also lose about 5 billion per year they get in federal health transfer money. They would also have to pay higher salaries to attract out of province employees, since they are no longer in Canada health costs would be high and not universally covered for out of province citizens. So when it was all said and done, Alberta may break even if oil prices stay high. Until they don't stay high. Couple that with the fact that wages in the US are 2/3rds or less than that of the average Canadian and it gets almost comical Imagine going from $85k a year as a high school educated person on the rigs to $45k maybe $50k LOL Alberta wages http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labr69j-eng.htm Texas wages http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/48 $30+ an hour down to about $18 an hour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Just now, ForsbergTheGreat said: Alberta Benefits from our resources and because we benefit was pay more to the other provinces. If that money DIDN'T have to leave Alberta it would be put to better use within the province. Engineers can come from all over the world, if their not coming from canada, people from other countries will follow the money. It's doesn't have to be linked together. I could care less about joining the US. Alberta on their own with Ocean access is a wealthy country Yes money "leaves" Alberta but it also comes back to you in the form of our national social net and other federal programs. At current oil prices Alberta is projected to put in about 7 billion per year, but it also receives close to 5 billion back in federal transfer payments for healthcare (that never seems to get covered in Alberta news papers). So, lets say Alberta leaves, it initially may be a bit ahead financially. But, you also have to figure out how to deal with no more federal money for infrastructure, defence, etc. All of that will be going to the US now and they don't have equalization there. Oh and the additional charges out of the Port of Vancouver to move goods. There simply will be no appetite in BC to join up with this US initiative. Now imagine an Alberta in a world flooded with even cheaper oil prices and less consumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 4 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Until they don't stay high. Couple that with the fact that wages in the US are 2/3rds or less than that of the average Canadian and it gets almost comical Imagine going from $85k a year as a high school educated person on the rigs to $45k maybe $50k LOL Alberta wages http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labr69j-eng.htm Texas wages http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/48 $30+ an hour down to about $18 an hour Yah its an idea designed to increase the wealth gap and make Alberta itself a poorer place economical and socially. It would be nice if Alberta could recognize that they are not hard done by because they have tons of oil money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 8 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: Yes money "leaves" Alberta but it also comes back to you in the form of our national social net and other federal programs. At current oil prices Alberta is projected to put in about 7 billion per year, but it also receives close to 5 billion back in federal transfer payments for healthcare (that never seems to get covered in Alberta news papers). The health care in canada isn't all it's made out to be and a ton of money is completely wasted on paperwork rather than employing good doctors. Most albertans go to states and pay out of pocket rather than waiting on a 14 month waiting list. It would be an opportunity to make health care much more efficient in alberta. Quote So, lets say Alberta leaves, it initially may be a bit ahead financially. But, you also have to figure out how to deal with no more federal money for infrastructure, defence, etc. All of that will be going to the US now and they don't have equalization there. Oh and the additional charges out of the Port of Vancouver to move goods. There simply will be no appetite in BC to join up with this US initiative. I could care less about being part of the US. What I said was all tongue in cheek anyways, This petition is about as meaning full as the keep eddie lack one a few year ago. Quote Now imagine an Alberta in a world flooded with even cheaper oil prices and less consumption. In that world canada is screwed with or without Alberta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurn Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Other than oil I'd think beef is the next biggest seller from Alberta? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 13 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: The health care in canada isn't all it's made out to be and a ton of money is completely wasted on paperwork rather than employing good doctors. Most albertans go to states and pay out of pocket rather than waiting on a 14 month waiting list. It would be an opportunity to make health care much more efficient in alberta. This is why I had to stop consulting in Calgary, too many discussions like this. Only a privileged few get to pay out of pocket, all those who can't afford it get poorer care, and I really don't think thats the kind of place you want to live in. Also, about 2% of people who do go to the US get severe complications, and Canada has to pay for that, and it can be lifelong chronic problems thanks to mistakes made in a US hospital. What seems to always be missed in all this is the fact that someone paying high federal taxes in Newfoundland or Quebec or BC pays as an individual just as much into Canada as an Albertan paying the same taxes. No individual Albertan does more for Canada than any other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: This is why I had to stop consulting in Calgary, too many discussions like this. Only a privileged few get to pay out of pocket, all those who can't afford it get poorer care, and I really don't think thats the kind of place you want to live in. Also, about 2% of people who do go to the US get severe complications, and Canada has to pay for that, and it can be lifelong chronic problems thanks to mistakes made in a US hospital. And this is why it's pointless to argue with BC homers. Out of the point that canada's health care has major issues that needs to be fixed all you take out of it is that canada ends up paying for the 2% of complications. Do you believe Canada's health care system is top notch? It's not, it's not efficient and it could use a major makeover. Alberta shouldn't need 5 billion in healthcare, there's opportunity and would be enough money to invest into an approved system. 3 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: What seems to always be missed in all this is the fact that someone paying high federal taxes in Newfoundland or Quebec or BC pays as an individual just as much into Canada as an Albertan paying the same taxes. No individual Albertan does more for Canada than any other person. What is hard for you to understand is that Alberta has more outgoing money that incoming money. Alberta's contributions to the program have exceeded the amounts transferred back since the 1960s, whereas other provinces have received more than they put in. Sorry for being selfish but that money could be better spent, and it if wasn't forced to going out, it could go toward benefiting ourselves. IT's really simple to understand. If you make a 100k a year but are forced to send 25k to your lazy cousins, sure your family overall might benefit but do you as an individual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantomex Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Double Post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantomex Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 10 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: What seems to always be missed in all this is the fact that someone paying high federal taxes in Newfoundland or Quebec or BC pays as an individual just as much into Canada as an Albertan paying the same taxes. No individual Albertan does more for Canada than any other person. Wait, what? We all pay equal taxes based on our income? No WAI.. /Sarcasm This is exactly it. Alberta "pays more" because of the influx of out of province workers that make a paycheck there. Most of the money made from the men and women who relocate temporarily for work doesn't stay in the province anyways. They take their profits back east, and their taxes goes into the pot. Alberta's oil and gas industry couldn't have maintained their astronomical pace without the rest of Canada. So many of the workers in the industry weren't even from Alberta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Zamboni Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 i thought Alberta had a NMC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: And this is why it's pointless to argue with BC homers. Out of the point that canada's health care has major issues that needs to be fixed all you take out of it is that canada ends up paying for the 2% of complications. Do you believe Canada's health care system is top notch? It's not, it's not efficient and it could use a major makeover. Alberta shouldn't need 5 billion in healthcare, there's opportunity and would be enough money to invest into an approved system. What is hard for you to understand is that Alberta has more outgoing money that incoming money. Alberta's contributions to the program have exceeded the amounts transferred back since the 1960s, whereas other provinces have received more than they put in. Sorry for being selfish but that money could be better spent, and it if wasn't forced to going out, it could go toward benefiting ourselves. IT's really simple to understand. If you make a 100k a year but are forced to send 25k to your lazy cousins, sure your family overall might benefit but do you as an individual? Those 2% cost anywhere between 10 to 100X the original cost of the surgery. I've worked in health for over 20 years, if you think you can come up with a better system being apart from Canada, good luck to you. And there it is "lazy". Right, Albertans invented oil. Many Albertans are arrogant and like keeping the myth alive, thinking that you do more for Canada than its other citizens. Its crap, and for as much as I'd like to see guys like that learn their lesson, I wouldn't want to see the suffering over others that would have to happen. Respectfully bud, you really have no idea what you are talking about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 3 minutes ago, Fantomex said: Wait, what? We all pay equal taxes based on our income? No WAI.. /Sarcasm This is exactly it. Alberta "pays more" because of the influx of out of province workers that make a paycheck there. Most of the money made from the men and women who relocate temporarily for work doesn't stay in the province anyways. They take their profits back east, and their taxes goes into the pot. Alberta's oil and gas industry couldn't have maintained their astronomical pace without the rest of Canada. So many of the workers in the industry weren't even from Alberta. tell @ForsbergTheGreat he's under the impression its all done by home-grown Albertans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 Just now, S'all Good Man said: Those 2% cost anywhere between 10 to 100X the original cost of the surgery. Most people go to the us for surgery because that's where there Canadian doctor recomended them to go to. Just now, S'all Good Man said: I've worked in health for over 20 years, if you think you can come up with a better system being apart from Canada, good luck to you. It really wouldn't be very hard. Just now, S'all Good Man said: And there it is "lazy". Right, Albertans invented oil. Many Albertans are arrogant and like keeping the myth alive, thinking that you do more for Canada than its other citizens. Its crap, and for as much as I'd like to see guys like that learn their lesson, I wouldn't want to see the suffering over others that would have to happen. Respectfully bud, you really have no idea what you are talking about here. That's your opinion. I feel the opposite. Alberta and Saskatchewan for that matter are the engines that canadas quality of life benefits from and instead of getting support most other provinces would rather provide road blocks than to support there most important industry. People these days just doesn't understand economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violator Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Warhippy said: Until they don't stay high. Couple that with the fact that wages in the US are 2/3rds or less than that of the average Canadian and it gets almost comical Imagine going from $85k a year as a high school educated person on the rigs to $45k maybe $50k LOL Alberta wages http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/labr69j-eng.htm Texas wages http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/48 $30+ an hour down to about $18 an hour I'd be fine with that everything is cheaper by at least 30% in the states.you would also get a house that's twice the size and a third of the price of vancouver Median price of a home in Calgary is 420,000 Median price in Dallas is 160,000 https://www.zillow.com/dallas-tx/home-values/ Those pay scales already seem to be on track with Vancouver if not more on most cases in dallas.if I owned a business I would definitely move it to Vancouver cheapest workforce possible. http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Vancouver-British-Columbia/Salary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 10 hours ago, Pears said: Ignorant Alberta rednecks who are Trump supporters? Let em join. They'd fit right in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Most people go to the us for surgery because that's where there Canadian doctor recomended them to go to. It really wouldn't be very hard. That's your opinion. I feel the opposite. Alberta and Saskatchewan for that matter are the engines that canadas quality of life benefits from and instead of getting support most other provinces would rather provide road blocks than to support there most important industry. People these days just doesn't understand economics. OK, if its not hard, tell me why Alberta hasn't fixed it then? Health delivery is under provincial jurisdiction. And no "most" people don't go to the US. And its not a feeling, red tape is part of this issue but not enough to be the difference. There are so many things you're brushing over like physician training, demographics, infrastructure, etc. I really don't want to fight or argue with you over this, all I can recommend is for you to think about the possibility that you've been fed a bit of a myth on Alberta's place in Canada. Yes of course its awesome to have oil dough but its taken decades of work on all levels to get it to where it is, from federal, provincial and foreign investment sources. Alberta benefits greatly from being in Canada, and you can look that up for yourself if you want to. Or not. But don't expect the rest of the country to appreciate being called ingrates when its quite the opposite. SK also took transfer payments for about 40 years.... maybe paying a little back is the right thing to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 1 hour ago, Violator said: I'd be fine with that everything is cheaper by at least 30% in the states.you would also get a house that's twice the size and a third of the price of vancouver Median price of a home in Calgary is 420,000 Median price in Dallas is 160,000 https://www.zillow.com/dallas-tx/home-values/ Those pay scales already seem to be on track with Vancouver if not more on most cases in dallas.if I owned a business I would definitely move it to Vancouver cheapest workforce possible. http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Location=Vancouver-British-Columbia/Salary Now that WOULD be nice. But supply and demand dictate otherwise. Home prices wouldn't drop like one would think, wages wouldn't necessarily either and what that would do is drive tens of if not hundreds of thousands of people to Alberta overnight looking for well paying jobs in the new america. The amount of increase at that point would bankrupt the system in that new state If Alberta wants to leave, there's the door. But man....it sure as hell isn't much better over there. And if you think transfer payments to a nice country like Canada is bad, wait until the state and fed demand their share for a country of over 300 million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 They can have any Albertan who signs, people are more than free to leave the country if they wish. But they sure as hell can't have Canadian land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 29 minutes ago, Coconuts said: They can have any Albertan who signs, people are more than free to leave the country if they wish. But they sure as hell can't have Canadian land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius Posted February 16, 2017 Share Posted February 16, 2017 My Inlaws are Albertan - please let them join the states and make it harder for me to visit there. All I hear about is how cheap their gas is, then I ask them how much does it cost to heat their house in the Tundra - oh 500 bucks a month you say? Yeah, ill take my buck 50 gas...and over taxed bottle of wine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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