[Trade] Canucks trade Jonathan Dahlen to Sharks for Linus Karlsson

[Alflives]

11 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I wouldn't say Dahlen was never going to be in our top 6 considering how weak we are on left wing. I think realistic expectations would have him reach at least a Baertschi level of production if he kept working on his game.

 

As for Karlsson he's just not putting up the numbers you would hope for as a 19 year old in that league. Players with that kind of production are a dime a dozen. And from the sounds of it he doesn't really have any qualities that make him stand out right now.

I guess JB felt that Dahlen was falling into the "Dime a dozen" category.  I liked Dahlen's game with the puck, while below the dots.  I didn't see much else there.  I don't think his offence would ever cover for his poor Defense.  As for the new guy, he's younger, and can still mature.  

[Dazzle]

1 minute ago, DeNiro said:

Of course he could come out of nowhere and surprise. (I hope he does).

 

The point is a player like Dahlen, who after last years heroics, his draft position, and his solid first stint in the AHL, should have more value than a relative unknown who is putting up underwhelming numbers in a tier 2 league.

 

I'm willing to trust Brackett and Gradin on this one, but I would have felt a little better getting a more known asset in a trade like this. Maybe a D prospect?

I saw your other posts. I can understand your lukewarm reaction to this trade - and so was I. I couldn't believe they traded away Dahlen, despite the fact that Pettersson and him were supposed to be BFFFFFFS.

 

There's going to be all kinds of speculation about what went down behind the scenes. I'd like to think that him/his agent requesting a trade out is a short-sighted, blunder, but maybe he genuinely feels like Utica wasn't representing his interests and/or he could truly flourish under a different environment.

 

Baertschi was certainly in this category where Calgary "mismanaged" him and we traded away an unknown (Shinkaruk) who ended up being... unknown relatively speaking.

 

It could very well happen that Dahlen = Baertschi.

 

Yet at the same time, Shinkaruk is not equivalent to Karlsson. Karlsson is playing against men. Shinkaruk was playing against kids/AHL, where his game did not translate into the NHL. Shinkaruk has many more years in. Karlsson is just starting.

 

MAYBEEEE we should re-evaluate the trade a little later to get a better idea of how good/bad this trade is?

[Phat Fingers]

4 hours ago, Timråfan said:

Well, if Dahlen is fine playing with the Barracudaz he's not the diva some fans try to portait it. 

Besides, his father is an old NHL veteran and knows exactly how fans react to players in different situations. So it must be something in this mess no one wants to talk about. Hence Benning saving face... 

It looks more like a bad situation at Utica.

Believe what you need too...  since your convinced, care to share why... MacEwan, Demko, Brisbiois, Gaudette, Lind, Gads, Saunter and Biega are all proof that Utica is toxic.... 

 

Guess they all must be begging for a trade.  

[Dazzle]

Just now, Phat Fingers said:

Believe what you need too...  since your convinced, care to share why... MacEwan, Demko, Brisbiois, Gaudette, Lind, Gads, Saunter and Biega are all proof that Utica is toxic.... 

 

Guess they all must be begging for a trade.  

I'd also like to add that not every player is going to be "happy" with their situation. It's very subjective of an experience. Someone like Horvat (if he had been in the AHL), could've very well thrived in there, but someone like Jasek might not.

 

I really don't think there is one solution for everything.

[DeNiro]

18 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Context is everything.

 

- He's been playing on a demoted, "bad" team that doesn't score very much. (Dahlen's team demoted them, no doubt they saw everything)

- Canuck scouting in Sweden is very prominent; Benning/scouts mentioned that Karlsson was someone they wanted.

- This is a 19 year old kid playing against MEN, so he's adapting to the style of game that Pettersson had been going through.

- Potentially a mentor in Pettersson.

 

What's NOT to be excited about this kid?

 

Also, projections for a player may or may not be accurate. We've seen plenty of pre-draft projections of Pettersson that were flat out wrong or overlooked his other characteristics? Patience is key.

 

But I do think they ran out of patience for Dahlen too quickly. There must have been something else going on that prompted them to make this trade so fast, despite being Pettersson's buddy.

So the question is, if he's on such a poor team, one that's even struggling to compete in Allsvenskan, shouldn't there be lots of room for opportunities there?

 

Not trying to knock him, but you would think he could rise to a top 6 role against a bunch of average second tier players no?

[Dazzle]

Just now, DeNiro said:

So the question is, if he's on such a poor team, one that's even struggling to compete in Allsvenskan, shouldn't there be lots of room for opportunities there?

 

Not trying to knock him, but you would think he could rise to a top 6 role against a bunch of average second tier players no?

That's not quite how it works in Europe.

 

From what I understand, the senior players get the bulk of ice time = means you have less of an opportunity to make an impact. Still, it is valuable development time that can be argued as being more important than dominating against Juniors.

 

I think there's a different set of philosophies on how to develop. I don't think dominating in Juniors is necessarily the best way to develop, especially if you are an overager. You might develop all kinds of bad habits or be ill-prepared for future competition that doesn't make the same silly kinds of mistakes you'd see in junior. You might be stronger and faster than everyone there, but at the men's league, it is completely different. You could look like a bust by comparison. And these guys are not even that good.

[Phat Fingers]

1 hour ago, DeNiro said:

It's funny because the stigma is typically that Russian players are the ones that pull these things, and that you're safer drafting Swedes because they're humble and low maintenance. 

 

Yet Goldobin has done nothing but put in the work, bide his time in the AHL, and now up and down in the NHL. And Dahlen goes to his agent and asks for a trade the first chance he sees some adversity.

 

Just interesting to see that stigma broken a little bit IMO.

32 minutes ago, DeNiro said:

I wouldn't say Dahlen was never going to be in our top 6 considering how weak we are on left wing. I think realistic expectations would have him reach at least a Baertschi level of production if he kept working on his game.

 

As for Karlsson he's just not putting up the numbers you would hope for as a 19 year old in that league. Players with that kind of production are a dime a dozen. And from the sounds of it he doesn't really have any qualities that make him stand out right now.

Karlsson seems to be stuck in a Jasek type situation.  The team was relegated last year and is deeper than many in the league.  Karlsson is able to cross the pond and has 2 years to develop to catch up with Dahlen.  

 

If he can be a Sami Pahlson type of center in 2-3 years  that would be a good move.  Hard to say at the moment.  

 

His draft year numbers in the Super Elit were eye catching.  He may have un tapped offensive abilities.  

 

After Gaudette, Madden and EP40, this club has had a knack at finding amature centers with upside.  Not so much with LW...  

 

 

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, Phat Fingers said:

Karlsson seems to be stuck in a Jasek type situation.  The team was relegated last year and is deeper than many in the league.  Karlsson is able to cross the pond and has 2 years to develop to catch up with Dahlen.  

 

If he can be a Sami Pahlson type of center in 2-3 years  that would be a good move.  Hard to say at the moment.  

 

His draft year numbers in the Super Elit were eye catching.  He may have un tapped offensive abilities.  

 

After Gaudette, Madden and EP40, this club has had a knack at finding amature centers with upside.  Not so much with LW...  

 

 

I believe the Canucks' scouting philosophy is to emphasize/focus on the center position as opposed to the wingers, which they might feel are "inferior" or "easier positions". With a Center, they can be both and thus more versatile in case they suck at being a center.

 

If they're just picking wingers, it is literally boom or bust. Worst ones would be the tweener wingers where if they're not good enough to produce in the top six but not good enough bottom six. That's a wasted pick right there.

 

If so, the Canucks are doing a marvellous job in the center position as demonstrated by your list of players.

[Phat Fingers]

23 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

I'd also like to add that not every player is going to be "happy" with their situation. It's very subjective of an experience. Someone like Horvat (if he had been in the AHL), could've very well thrived in there, but someone like Jasek might not.

 

I really don't think there is one solution for everything.

Exactly.... 

 

JP Barry already admitted that he asked for a trade...

 

Dahlen's agent, yet Dahlen denied this.  So the issue isnt on the nucks.  If your JB and looking long term, do you want a rookie's agent coming to you asking for a trade.  Sure Dahlen has skill, he has also not the best skater and lacks size.  Is he NHL ready now, not really.  One or two more years, yeah he could be.   Baer and Granlund come to mind.  

 

Was there a problem.... yes, was it Dahlen or his agent.  Most likely his agent, JP Barry has stirred up issues before in Vancouver.  Too bad, Dahlen has a good rep and this looks like entitlement. 

 

Goldy is a similar player skill wise but has Larionov as his agent.  He has the right motivation and shows that it takes time to get there, same with Granlund and Baer.  

 

Maybe Dahlen should get a new agent.  

  

[Dazzle]

Just now, Phat Fingers said:

Exactly.... 

 

JP Barry already admitted that he asked for a trade...

 

Dahlen's agent, yet Dahlen denied this.  So the issue isnt on the nucks.  If your JB and looking long term, do you want a rookie's agent coming to you asking for a trade.  Sure Dahlen has skill, he has also not the best skater and lacks size.  Is he NHL ready now, not really.  One or two more years, yeah he could be.   Baer and Granlund come to mind.  

 

Was there a problem.... yes, was it Dahlen or his agent.  Most likely his agent, JP Barry has stirred up issues before in Vancouver.  Too bad, Dahlen has a good rep and this looks like entitlement. 

 

Goldy is a similar player skill wise but has Larionov as his agent.  He has the right motivation and shows that it takes time to get there, same with Granlund and Baer.  

 

Maybe Dahlen should get a new agent.  

  

JP Barry isn't exactly small potatoes. I'd have to wonder if someone as famous as him would really care all that much about a B+ prospect in Dahlen when he has other high-end clientele to deal with.

 

I agree. Dahlen should get a new agent. In the meantime, Dahlen can figure out the hard way that he made a mistake asking for a trade. Really serious blunder IMO.

[Connor comet]

We will never know. Dahlen was improving, but had little to no interest in physical play. He basically stayed away from the tough areas and played on the perimiter. He was at his best on the PP.  Bottom line was the kid had a total of 8 points at even strength in 50 games.  Not exactly Earth moving #s.....

[Noble 6]

The Canucks should really look into creating a trade to get him into the SHL next year. 

[kurtis]

Really sucks this trade happened. Why didn't they just wait until the summer ??? 

[coryberg]

A couple gems I found while scouting Karlsson on the internet (both random sources)

[Canuck Surfer]

2 hours ago, DeNiro said:

As for Karlsson he's just not putting up the numbers you would hope for as a 19 year old in that league. Players with that kind of production are a dime a dozen. And from the sounds of it he doesn't really have any qualities that make him stand out right now.

Thats harsher than it really is DeNiro?

 

Yes it proves he's not likely to be a scoring sensation. But playing any pro league at 19 is an accomplishment. See Gadjovich at age 20? We could argue he is actually ahead of Jonah almost a year younger. And Karlsson is a checking centre with good skills.

 

Last year he had excellent junior numbers. And played 13 games in the SHL at age 18. In some regards a better league than the AHL. In some regards not. But that speaks volumes. 

 

Like any 3rd round prospect, we have to check back 3 years after his draft. Not a year and a few months. If he can develop some speed, he will be an NHL player is my un professional estimation. 

[DrJockitch]

3 hours ago, DeNiro said:

So the question is, if he's on such a poor team, one that's even struggling to compete in Allsvenskan, shouldn't there be lots of room for opportunities there?

 

Not trying to knock him, but you would think he could rise to a top 6 role against a bunch of average second tier players no?

Actually what I read was as a 19 year old he was started on fourth line but played well enough through the first half of the season that the team traded their number one centre and he moved up into the two slot.  Since then his scoring rate has gone up significantly.

[Dazzle]

8 hours ago, kurtis said:

Really sucks this trade happened. Why didn't they just wait until the summer ??? 

And this is a blunder he's going to regret big time. Dahlen that is.

He had maybe 2 months of this season left of no Canucks hockey. This summer, he would (should be) working his ass off and show up in prime condition for the training camp. Then he'll make it on the Canucks because of his merits.

 

The fact that he requested a trade THIS year and so late of the year means he'll almost never get a chance to play on an NHL team because everyone is busy trying to get points. The only teams that could play him are the bad ones that don't have anyone better.

 

HUGE mistake by the kid, or at least the agents representing him. Don't want to play for the Canucks? K cya.

[UTICANUCK]

A final word on Dahlen.   In 2017 Dahlen left the Utica Comets during preseason and from an insider it was more from being homesick than n illness recovery issue.  This is from the Utica Newspaper from September 2018 camp (a year later)

  

About this time last year, Dahlen was trying to overcome a bout of mononucleosis. He spent time with the Comets in preseason before a decision was made to return to Sweden. He said he wants to play in North America this season to work toward an NHL call-up.

“I want to develop there,” Dahlen said. “Everyone wants to get to the top level. I think this is a good place for me right now to play. I don’t see myself going back to Sweden.”

 

If the insider information is correct (he left Comets camp because he was homesick in 2017) - maybe its' more of a maturity issue than a "Blame the Comets Coach" Issue and maybe he'll feel much better in San Jose for whatever reason.  Maybe he needs to be spoon fed and stroked.

 

 

[Mo Grit]

6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

And this is a blunder he's going to regret big time. Dahlen that is.

He had maybe 2 months of this season left of no Canucks hockey. This summer, he would (should be) working his ass off and show up in prime condition for the training camp. Then he'll make it on the Canucks because of his merits.

 

The fact that he requested a trade THIS year and so late of the year means he'll almost never get a chance to play on an NHL team because everyone is busy trying to get points. The only teams that could play him are the bad ones that don't have anyone better.

 

HUGE mistake by the kid, or at least the agents representing him. Don't want to play for the Canucks? K cya.

Dahlen's made his reaching the NHL a longer route than it already was.  But if he does make it then his suggested self-entitlement might come to be viewed as swagger. 

 

On trading Burrows, Benning claimed "Dahlen is a player we've had our eye on.  He's a goal-scorer, he's good around the net, he's sure-handed, he's got a good nose for the net and he'll pay the price to get there."  H'mmm, where's hindsight when ya need it? 

 

Burrows by then had already cleared waivers but Gambler Jim has turned Alex into an intriguing 3rd round pick.  He would have taken that at the time I'm sure for he's quoted as having considered drafting Karlsson in 2018, but instead used our own 3rd pick on Madden. A truly inspired choice as its turning out.

 

Karlsson is a gamble like most draft picks, but at the least gets Benning off the hook for his Dahlen misjudgement.  Maybe Jim'll see him as his boy, not a foster kid foisted upon him to show value for trading away Burrows.  Consider that we drafted such notables as Mallet, Myron and Beattie in 2012, we're in a much happier place today.

  

[The Lock]

25 minutes ago, Mo Grit said:

Dahlen's made his reaching the NHL a longer route than it already was.  But if he does make it then his suggested self-entitlement might come to be viewed as swagger. 

 

On trading Burrows, Benning claimed "Dahlen is a player we've had our eye on.  He's a goal-scorer, he's good around the net, he's sure-handed, he's got a good nose for the net and he'll pay the price to get there."  H'mmm, where's hindsight when ya need it? 

 

Burrows by then had already cleared waivers but Gambler Jim has turned Alex into an intriguing 3rd round pick.  He would have taken that at the time I'm sure for he's quoted as having considered drafting Karlsson in 2018, but instead used our own 3rd pick on Madden. A truly inspired choice as its turning out.

 

Karlsson is a gamble like most draft picks, but at the least gets Benning off the hook for his Dahlen misjudgement.  Maybe Jim'll see him as his boy, not a foster kid foisted upon him to show value for trading away Burrows.  Consider that we drafted such notables as Mallet, Myron and Beattie in 2012, we're in a much happier place today.

  

Even with Mallet, we got Pedan (who could have become something if not for being forced to play at forward for whatever reason). With Pedan and a later pick we picked up Poutliot, a former top 10 pick.

 

While this clearly hasn't amounted to much, each trade could have. If something doesn't work, try something else. Low risk means it doesn't matter if there's a low reward or not, but if there becomes a high reward then JB looks like a genious. These trades are not costly at all yet people hound on them like they are worth the sun and the moon and the stars! lol