JB has thrown away far too many assets - needs to be replaced as GM

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Funny i get to have hockey discussions all the time with people actually involved in the NHL. From head scouts to head coaches to players and ex players and they all never seem to have that issue. Like i said early. There’s only the select few on this forum that believe they are able to decipher the plan of Vancouver and everyone else is “too stupid” to understand. Someday maybe you will be able to take off the glasses and think logically. Doubt it though. 

 

anyways as always when you get backed into a corner and can’t come up with a way to spin things you waive the white flag in hopes to get a few pluses. 

I have plenty I could respond with. Can't be bothered to counter all that straw and nonsense 

Edited March 20, 2019 by aGENT

[Shirotashi]

On 3/16/2019 at 4:15 PM, Generational.EP40 said:

1.) not saying to get ride of him entirely, just at the managerial level as he undoubtably has restocked the prospect cupboard for us which can’t be denied

 

2.) should retain some sort of position, preferably something like president or VP of hockey operations to overlook things and continue sharing his expertise when it comes to drafting/prospects

 

3.) so why should he step down / be replaced as GM? Let’s look:

 

 

That’s shocking. We have almost nothing of significance to show for over JB 5 year tenure.

 

 

 

...it’s no surprise we hired a newbie GM at the time. This critical transition phase the organization is in, we can’t be allowing this much trial&error with the scarce assets we have to work with in the first place. 

 

On top of the asset inefficiency, his inexperience as manager has been evident with the signings as well. Overpaying & giving extended years to questionable players, just unnecessary. All it’s done is become dead weight which can’t be moved and will anchor the roster in the years ahead.

 

That manager inexperience? To continue, he hasn’t been able to commit to a plan or vision since day1. A rebuild was clear as day but the R word was never uttered until Linden became president. Prior to that he dodged it like the plague and would never admit it. Thought he could fast track by trading picks in the beginning when those picks could’ve been paying dividends for us right now. Too much flip flopping between ideologies. Remember “meat & potatoes”? That died shortly but then he couldn’t fully let it go either as evident by drafting Virtanen coming off a major surgery...he just couldn’t help himself. Even now, we struck gold with EP. Rebuild was endorsed but now that we got lucky and EP has fast forwarded that timeline, he thinks we can fight for a playoff(WC) spot. The man can’t help himself and begins jumping the gun too easily, can’t stay focused on the mission. 

 

Just far too much indecisiveness and it’s fair to say we’ve seen enough. Let’s get a proven GM who can be relied on to stay the course, not get ahead of himself, and let the nature of the rebuild take place organically while JB overlooks the draft aspect. I think that would be best for all parties. Stack up on maximum assets, get a cap structure going, get rid of bad contracts in this vital transition phase when we will shortly but surely be on the rise. Hypothetically, targeting an Yzerman or someone along those lines as GM+President would be ideal. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

EDIT

summed up:

 

> JB pro: drafting

> JB cons: everything else about GMing (trades, signings, vision, commitment) 

> get someone who is better than Jimbo at the cons 

> keep Jimbo for the pro(prospects), just in a different/special role AKA I’m not saying cut him loose entirely

I love ballzy posts like this and the research and presentation are impeccable well done ill thumbs up you just for those two. Hard to say wether or not I agree with you. Im actually waiting to see what happens with Tryamkin in general and Pettersson in the playoffs to make my decision. On one hand Jim Benning has been great with the drafting but on the other hand he has traded for players that just dont gel well with the rest of the team or cannot buy into our system. 

To me it comes down to:

A. Tryamkin needs to make the team and be an impact player.

B. Pettersson needs to show he can maintain mental discipline in the Playoffs and always be a threat. Needs to show he cannot be shelved because 1 player on the other team is a Byfuglien or a Marchant type. Once his playoff "metal" has been tested we will know what we have but not until then.

 

So really time will tell. 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Shirotashi

[Gurn]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Naslund and Bert had already produced in The NHL. There was some reliability in there play and better yet neither cost us a draft pick. 

 

Iirc they were traded for players that had been previously drafted.

[Honky Cat]

Good discussion here..Obviously GMJB has repeatedly crapped the bed on pro scouting, and making very poor moves in his first 24 months on the job..I like his drafting (at this juncture of the franchise, it has to be the' imperative'),and most of his moves since 2017 are consistent with the plan.

 

I would say he deserves one more year to get it right..You can only expect the fanbase to be so patient.

 

 

[Toews]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

Ranked third in THN's 'Futurewatch'....clearly time to fire the guy in charge 

I am guessing Arizona, Buffalo, Edmonton have all been ranked quite highly in such rankings in the past. When you finish at the bottom of the standings you have higher picks not just in the 1st round but the rest of the draft as well. 

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, Toews said:

I am guessing Arizona, Buffalo, Edmonton have all been ranked quite highly in such rankings in the past. When you finish at the bottom of the standings you have higher picks not just in the 1st round but the rest of the draft as well. 

 

[Toews]

11 minutes ago, aGENT said:

 

I know. I was shocked as well. It's almost like finishing 3rd in THN's future doesn't portend success. 

 

Does it indicate that we have some talented young players? Sure but it isn't enough, we need to be able to develop them in an environment that is conducive to growth and I have doubts about the Comets.

Edited March 21, 2019 by Toews

[Battlemonger]

Nah. I'm liking the team and the prospect pool..

[awalk]

Rough list, but the outbound players on the left side should be categorized just like the inbound players on the right side.  

 

 

[SingleThorn]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

Iirc they were traded for players that had been previously drafted.

Traded for a #2 overall pick and #7 overall pick. Hardly worth mentioning and didn't suit his agenda.

[Mo Grit]

“I know he's a good general, but is he lucky?” - Napoleon Bonaparte.

"I am a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work, the more I have of it" -Thomas Jefferson

 

From 2010 entry draft:

Erik Gudbranson      3rd overall

Patrick McNally      115th overall  (our first pick)

Michael Ferland    131st overall

Mark Stone           178th overall

 

Jim's been way more lucky than not, and way, way better than his predecessors.

[CanadianRugby]

1 hour ago, Honky Cat said:

Good discussion here..Obviously GMJB has repeatedly crapped the bed on pro scouting, and making very poor moves in his first 24 months on the job..I like his drafting (at this juncture of the franchise, it has to be the' imperative'),and most of his moves since 2017 are consistent with the plan.

 

I would say he deserves one more year to get it right..You can only expect the fanbase to be so patient.

What to you would mean, "get it right" next season?  

[kanucks25]

5 hours ago, aGENT said:

Ranked third in THN's 'Futurewatch'....clearly time to fire the guy in charge 

Unfortunately there's a lot more to being a successful GM than icing a tire-fire and choosing at the top of the draft every year because of it.

 

5 hours ago, aGENT said:

Not moving anything. It's the same point I've been making all along. Depth and role players are certainly valuable but the backbone of any rebuild relies on top players, predominately from the top of the top round. There's no getting around it.

 

They're called core players for a reason.

 

Anyone still arguing it, either still doesn't understand the point, or is only here to argue.

You can't win without both together. One is nothing without the other so why does it even matter?

 

The reason Edmonton failed is because they didn't draft well enough outside their top picks to help supplement said top picks. When you don't do that, you're forced to trade for / sign players from the outside that are usually either not very good and/or overpaid. Sound familiar?

 

4 hours ago, HerrDrFunk said:

How many 23 year olds who are more than point per game in the AHL do you know of who you can pick up in free agency or waivers? Because that's what Vey was when he was traded for. 

 

It was a good idea for a trade but it didn't work out. Vey's extreme family issues probably played a part in that.

Vey was a very flawed player despite his production, go back and read articles or even posts from Kings fans on HF Boards.

 

The most obvious red flag is that the team that knows him best, the Kings, gave up on him quite easily. No team in their right mind, especially in the salary cap era, just gives away a 23 year-old like that if they're confident he's going to produce in the NHL. It makes absolutely no sense, it would be like us right now trading away Gaudette for a 2nd.

 

PPG at 23 in the AHL isn't amazing. It's good, but it doesn't indicate a high chance of success in the NHL. Dal Colle is currently 23 and PPG in the AHL, do many people have faith in him becoming something substantial?

Edited March 21, 2019 by kanucks25

[ForsbergTheGreat]

1 hour ago, gurn said:

Iirc they were traded for players that had been previously drafted.

Exactly players we drafted with our picks... not other reclamation prospects we traded for.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, aGENT said:

I have plenty I could respond with. Can't be bothered to counter all that straw and nonsense 

 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

36 minutes ago, SingleThorn said:

Traded for a #2 overall pick and #7 overall pick. Hardly worth mentioning and didn't suit his agenda.

umm.... it proves my point.  You don't get those types of players without canucks actually making a selection at the draft floor, the exact thing I wish JB did more of...not less of..

[HerrDrFunk]

15 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Vey was a very flawed player despite his production, go back and read articles or even posts from Kings fans on HF Boards.

 

The most obvious red flag is that the team that knows him best, the Kings, gave up on him quite easily. No team in their right mind, especially in the salary cap era, just gives away a 23 year-old like that if they're confident he's going to produce in the NHL. It makes absolutely no sense, it would be like us right now trading away Gaudette for a 2nd.

 

PPG at 23 in the AHL isn't amazing. It's good, but it doesn't indicate a high chance of success in the NHL. Dal Colle is currently 23 and PPG in the AHL, do many people have faith in him becoming something substantial?

Context: the King’s were a stacked team fresh off their second cup win and didn’t have room for Vey in the lineup. 

 

I dont think anyone in management envisioned Vey becoming the face of the franchise but he was a young player (by comparison to the rest of the roster) who looked ready to make the jump to the NHL and contribute offensively. 

 

This an awful lot of grief for a 2nd round pick that was traded 5 years ago.

 

 

[kanucks25]

29 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Context: the King’s were a stacked team fresh off their second cup win and didn’t have room for Vey in the lineup. 

Context: Stoll, Nolan and Dowd Shore all played significant minutes for the Kings the year after Vey was traded (not to mention Pearson who played with Vey in the AHL the year prior). Vey could have competed with any of these guys for a spot if the Kings actually believed in him.

 

So I say again, nobody gives away a 23 year-old on a cheap contract if they believe he's going to be a good contributor on their NHL team. Teams make room for these kinds of players. It's not like the Kings traded him for a "now" piece that would help them stretch out their Cup window.

 

29 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

This an awful lot of grief for a 2nd round pick that was traded 5 years ago.

If Vey was Benning's only mistake nobody would care. Unfortunately that's not close to being the case. And it's not about one particular player, it's just that Vey is maybe the poster boy of Benning's failed "age-gap" plan (him or Sbisa, I guess... or maybe Gudbranson).

Edited March 21, 2019 by kanucks25

[kanucks25]

The Lightning are 3rd in NHL rookie scoring while utterly dominating the league.

 

Cirelli - 3rd round pick

Joseph - 4th round pick

Erne - 2nd round pick

Cernak - 2nd round pick

 

 

 

The Canucks currently have one non-1st rounder contributing in the NHL (Gaudette, 5th round pick, 12 points).

[HerrDrFunk]

20 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Context: Stoll, Nolan and Dowd all played significant minutes for the Kings the year after Vey was traded (not to mention Pearson who played with Vey in the AHL the year prior). Vey could have competed with any of these guys for a spot if the Kings actually believed in him.

Dowd didn't play for the Kings that year. Here's their roster from 2014-15: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000402015.html. Pretty stacked (at the time), no?

 

20 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

So I say again, nobody gives away a 23 year-old on a cheap contract if they believe he's going to be a good contributor on their NHL team. Teams make room for these kinds of players. It's not like the Kings traded him for a "now" piece that would help them stretch out their Cup window.

If the Kings gave Vey away, why are you complaining? Could it be because they didn't give him away but actually traded him for an early pick? You can't have it both ways: either the Kings gave Vey away or the Canucks paid too high a price for him.

 

Not to mention, this "team's don't move players they think will contribute" is patently untrue. Because you see, sometimes on stacked teams, management will move out players who are talented, but there isn't room for, to avoid losing them for nothing down the road. How do you think the Canucks wound up with Leivo? Did JB fleece the Leafs?

3 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

The Lightning are 3rd in NHL rookie scoring while utterly dominating the league.

 

Cirelli - 3rd round pick

Joseph - 4th round pick

Erne - 2nd round pick

Cernak - 2nd round pick

 

 

 

The Canucks currently have one non-1st rounder contributing in the NHL (Gaudette, 5th round pick, 12 points).

Could it possibly have something to do with the fact that the Lightning are an utterly stacked team at the moment and it trickles down? 

Edited March 21, 2019 by HerrDrFunk