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[Proposal] Virtanen for Toffoli


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Pearson and Toffoli made a strong line in LA...they also were a top line in the "A"...they've played with each other a lot and have chemistry together...Pearson, Horvat, and Toffoli on the second line

Edited by Pete M
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3 minutes ago, Pete M said:

Pearson and Tiffoli made a strong line in LA...they also were a top line in the "A"...they've played with each other a lot and have chemistry together...Pearson, Horvat, and Toffoli on the second line

I don’t mind the idea, except that we are rebuilding.  Toffolli doesn’t fit into that plan, IMO.  I’d rather move Jake for a younger D man, like Ristolainen.  

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4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I don’t mind the idea, except that we are rebuilding.  Toffolli doesn’t fit into that plan, IMO.  I’d rather move Jake for a younger D man, like Ristolainen.  

UFA Dman, Tryamkin, OJ, Hughes, Woo...they're coming...team needs to get more consistency from their top players...Toffoli will fit well with Pearson now and for years to come when this team will compete in two years. Virtanen has assets but he is very inconsistent...he has been since the Hitman days (doesn't seem things will change); whereas Toffoli and Pearson together will bring big bodies and consistency..add Horvat...this would be a power line that could wear other teams top lines down and score.

 

"D" take longer to develop because they need to transition from boy strength to man strength...JB needs to add an elite dman through UFA to compliment this team's young dmen in two years when they will be competing.

 

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2 minutes ago, Pete M said:

UFA Dman, Tryamkin, OJ, Hughes, Woo...they're coming...team needs to get more consistency from their top players...Toffoli will fit well with Pearson now and for years to come when this team will compete in two years. Virtanen has assets but he is very inconsistent...he has been since the Hitman days (doesn't seem things will change); whereas Toffoli and Pearson together will bring big bodies and consistency..add Horvat...this would be a power line that could wear other teams top lines down and score.

 

"D" take longer to develop because they need to transition from boy strength to man strength...JB needs to add an elite dman through UFA to compliment this team's young dmen in two years when they will be competing.

 

You make some good points, especially about how D develop.  Tofolli is going to be near 30 when we are really getting good though.  I just think he’s a bit too old to fit in with this current young core. 

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22 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I don’t mind the idea, except that we are rebuilding.  Toffolli doesn’t fit into that plan, IMO.  I’d rather move Jake for a younger D man, like Ristolainen.  

Toffoli is 27. It’d speed up the timeline without hurting our prospect depth. Organization seems like it sees Jake as a 3rd liner at best. They’d probably jump all over moving him for a legit top 6 forward. He had a down year playing on a team that wins all it’s games on defense. Buying low here. Give him young, mobile linemates, he could have a massive resurgence point wise. 

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10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

You make some good points, especially about how D develop.  Tofolli is going to be near 30 when we are really getting good though.  I just think he’s a bit too old to fit in with this current young core. 

JB is always of the mind set that teams need vet players to compete...he is 26 years old this year and will grow with this team...give him 4 to 5 years and he will be 31 years old...in his prime. Look at his +/- in his first three years playing with Pearson....can see them rekindling that dominance with Bo

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Edited by Pete M
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1 minute ago, N7Nucks said:

Toffoli is 27. It’d speed up the timeline without hurting our prospect depth. Organization seems like it sees Jake as a 3rd liner at best. They’d probably jump all over moving him for a legit top 6 forward. He had a down year playing on a team that wins all it’s games on defense. Buying low here. Give him young, mobile linemates, he could have a massive resurgence point wise. 

I just don’t think we should be trading for guys in their late 20’s during the rebuilding phase.  Yes, Tofolli is an upgrade on Jake, but I think he’s too old for us right now.  

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20 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I just don’t think we should be trading for guys in their late 20’s during the rebuilding phase.  Yes, Tofolli is an upgrade on Jake, but I think he’s too old for us right now.  

He's 26.  Same age as Sven, one year older than project Goldobin, Ben Hutton and Leivo, same age as Pearson.  I think your view of him is slightly skewed given how long he's been around for, but the fact that he's still young (doubt anyone calls any of the guys listed above "old"), cost controlled ($4.6 million/ year for one year after this), and he's already proven makes him a quality buy-low choice, a.k.a. a Benning type of trade.  Doubt there's a better time to try and poach someone like him.  In fact I'd be down to trade either Goldie or Jake, let them have their pick (personally I might want to keep Jake since he can probably battle better than Goldie in a bottom 6 role).

Edited by Phil_314
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I don't think LA does it. Toffoli is certainly good for at least 30 points and has shown that he can hit 40-50 in the past as well. Virtanen hasn't shown ability for anything more than 30 points thus far. The only two big edges Virtanen has is that he's quite a bit younger and much more physical.

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25 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I just don’t think we should be trading for guys in their late 20’s during the rebuilding phase.  Yes, Tofolli is an upgrade on Jake, but I think he’s too old for us right now.  

This is a faulty way of thinking and why I'll never understand you team tankers. It's okay to have some veteran guys on your team. And since when did 27 become too old? Guy has a cup ring under his belt, in his prime still, has chemistry with another top 6 player on our team. Makes no sense to not want to trade a 3rd liner for a top 6 player in his prime. He'll likely be 30/31 when we start making serious playoff runs, which is roughly the same age that Oshie is for Washington. Team's generally win the cup with older players. Not many teams are winning with a team entirely comprised of 20-25 year olds. I dunno, get all the 20 year old players i guess. Worked wonders for Edmonton.

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3 minutes ago, N7Nucks said:

This is a faulty way of thinking and why I'll never understand you team tankers. It's okay to have some veteran guys on your team. And since when did 27 become too old? Guy has a cup ring under his belt, in his prime still, has chemistry with another top 6 player on our team. Makes no sense to not want to trade a 3rd liner for a top 6 player in his prime. He'll likely be 30/31 when we start making serious playoff runs, which is roughly the same age that Oshie is for Washington. Team's generally win the cup with older players. Not many teams are winning with a team entirely comprised of 20-25 year olds. I dunno, get all the 20 year old players i guess. Worked wonders for Edmonton.

I don’t think I’m in the tank.  I might walk behind or something like that.

we already have guys in that 25 to 27 range though.  I don’t see adding another one, at the expense of a younger guy as a good move right now.  I’d rather keep Jake, and have him continue to grow his game with us, or trade him for a guy like Risto.  I like Tofolli, but don’t like where he is in his career.  

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1 hour ago, -AJ- said:

I don't think LA does it. Toffoli is certainly good for at least 30 points and has shown that he can hit 40-50 in the past as well. Virtanen hasn't shown ability for anything more than 30 points thus far. The only two big edges Virtanen has is that he's quite a bit younger and much more physical.

LA might like the idea of a future Vilardi - Virtanen line.

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Toffoli's vice is that his skating is awful and he's a streaky scorer. He was able to get away with it with the Kings in their peak because they played a slow, possession-heavy game which favoured his skillset. But the game has transitioned so much towards speed that he's been somewhat left behind. It especially does not make sense because the Canucks are primarily a North - South team, we would not be a good fit for him.

 

I would rather keep investing in Jake.

Edited by Mathew Barzal
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2 hours ago, Pete M said:

UFA Dman, Tryamkin, OJ, Hughes, Woo...they're coming...team needs to get more consistency from their top players...Toffoli will fit well with Pearson now and for years to come when this team will compete in two years. Virtanen has assets but he is very inconsistent...he has been since the Hitman days (doesn't seem things will change); whereas Toffoli and Pearson together will bring big bodies and consistency..add Horvat...this would be a power line that could wear other teams top lines down and score.

 

"D" take longer to develop because they need to transition from boy strength to man strength...JB needs to add an elite dman through UFA to compliment this team's young dmen in two years when they will be competing.

 

We just don’t know how any of those guys are going to work out.  Tryamkin might not come back until we don’t own his rights.  Woo and Juolevi may never make the league or be better than 3rd pairing guys 

 

I am more onboard with the Ristolainen idea too.

 

The worst thing that happens is you end up with a surplus of good young D, and that is easy to resolve.  You can always trade a D for good value relative to a similar forward.

 

Hoping magic happens with Toffoli isn’t a very safe bet.  If he costs to Goldobin sure, Virtanen is a trade chip we have to maximize as we don’t have many.

Edited by Provost
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4 hours ago, Pete M said:

Pearson and Toffoli made a strong line in LA...they also were a top line in the "A"...they've played with each other a lot and have chemistry together...Pearson, Horvat, and Toffoli on the second line

Pearson is doing just fine with out any of his former buddy's

 

Virtanen's production is comparable to tafolli's for much cheaper 

 

Based on that it's a pass

 

 

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Well, here is my 2 bits worth...

 

The difference between Toffoli and Virtanen are many......absolutely 2 different types of players, with 2 absolutely IQ's

 

Toffoli got his point playing first line on a aging team, with players that are declining, Toffoli is a cerebral player, who plays a 200 ft. game

 

Virtanen is a jet engine with no IQ, that will ceiling out well below Toffoli, but with age in his favor...……….

 

My question is more of how much will Toffolli going to cost to re-sign? Personally, he would look great with Pearson and Horvat......to me it is a sign and trade

 

I am not against the idea......

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7 hours ago, Pete M said:

Pearson and Toffoli made a strong line in LA...they also were a top line in the "A"...they've played with each other a lot and have chemistry together...Pearson, Horvat, and Toffoli on the second line

plus Toffoli is a nuck killer so better to have on our team ;)

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Okay, here's my problem with bringing in Toffoli.....

 

It sounds to me that we'd be bringing him in due to past chemistry. This is a recipe for disaster waiting to happen. We brought in Eriksson due to to past chemistry with the Sedins. It worked out horribly. We had Vey and Etem due to past chemistry in the WHL. Neither played well for us. Richards and Carter were brought in by LA. Richards couldn't even hold his job (although Carter at least worked out there).

 

Chemistry comes and goes and if there is anything we should be learning about chemistry is is does not translate from one team to another, at least not usually.

 

Why may this be? Because chemistry is about momentum. Therefore, if you've just joined a new team, do you have chemistry? Even if you've played with someone before, everything else is different: different faces, different environment. You have to rebuild the chemistry from the ground up each and every time. And this is even harder to do if there is expected chemistry between you and another guy. Now, if you don't have chemistry (especially in a Canadian market), you are thrown at the firing squad and are a terrible signing. Gotta love pressure!

 

You don't build a team based on past chemistry. You add pieces that you think will work with the team in general. Adding pieces based on 1 person is a horrible idea. If they have chemistry, the why did Pearson and Toffoli both have poor starts to the season?

Edited by The Lock
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  • -SN- changed the title to [Proposal] Virtanen for Toffoli

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