[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[BI3KSA-]

We definitely gave up a fair bit to get Miller but I think it was the right move and the type of move I wanted to see. This team doesnt need another late first round pick that statistically isnt guaranteed to ever be an impact player, and likely even if it pans out as a impact player isnt one for years to come. What we need is to fill out our top 6 and give the young stars we have now the support to actually make the playoffs. We did that by adding a 26 year old player on a good 4 year contract that has second line offensive output and also is a great fit as far as size, style of play, defensive capability and PP position and production goes. 

We need good players that can play now, not late first round picks that statistically dont have a good chance of ever becoming as good as Miller. (obviously if this ends up being a lottery pick we sh*t the bed)

[StanleyCupOneDay]

12 hours ago, Talon71 said:

Agreed.   With luck he'll be a good influence on Virtanen 

 

And Goldy.

[BPA]

Stop with all the worrying. 

[BPA]

5 hours ago, Dazzle said:

We are not gonna do bad enough to get Lafreniere

Well.  If Nucks actually do miss the playoffs, they technically still have a chance to win the 1st OVA.

 

If they do win 1st, trade it to MTL for a kings ransom.   LOL. 

[coryberg]

5 hours ago, Dazzle said:

We are not gonna do bad enough to get Lafreniere

I think he is upset that we aren't tanking for Lafreniere and feels we should be trading our talent for lottery tickets.

[BO_Scorvat]

12 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

I can see Pearson, he’s scored over 20 goals before, but Spooner for $4 mill?  SMH.  

Why are you talking about Spooner? 

Also hate to be that guy but there's a way higher chance Spooner scores 20ish goals than Ganger sooooo

[coryberg]

12 hours ago, Pure961089 said:

I can see Pearson, he’s scored over 20 goals before, but Spooner for $4 mill?  SMH.  

Wrong! We are only on the hook for 3.1mill.

 

Would you rather have Gagner pouting or Spooner doing whatever is asked of him and keeping his mouth shut?

[Amebushi]

14 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

Is it worth it if we make the playoffs next year, get bounced in 5 games and lose the 16th overall pick in the deepest draft since 2015/03?

And if that 16th overall pick is a Steve Bernier bust?  Every draft is the deepest since 2015/03. Fans can play the what if game forever. I didn’t even say this was a sure win, I said time will tell. I feel JT Miller is a solid pickup and makes our team better now. The price we have paid to get him is yet to be determined. The condition on the pick lessens the blow, but to answer your question I still think it’s worth it. If JT gets us to the playoffs and gives our young stars 5 games in the playoffs to learn how hard it is and shows management where we need need to fill in to really compete for the cup I will wager (please note, still admitting it’s a gamble) that it’s worth the 16th overall pick. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Amebushi
Can’t spell bust

[PhillipBlunt]

12 minutes ago, coryberg said:

Wrong! We are only on the hook for 3.1mill.

 

Would you rather have Gagner pouting or Spooner doing whatever is asked of him and keeping his mouth shut?

Rather have neither anywhere near the roster.

[Gaudette Celly]

12 minutes ago, coryberg said:

Wrong! We are only on the hook for 3.1mill.

 

Would you rather have Gagner pouting or Spooner doing whatever is asked of him and keeping his mouth shut?

Not even that, with the Rangers retaining.  Buying him out would be $1mil for the next two years, but we could just as easily send him to Utica.  He was a PPG guy there, would be a big boost, and won't make a difference cap-wise.

[Gaudette Celly]

While "pundits" like Ray Ferraro are "perplexed" (i.e. clueless), those that actually played the game and understand it see it very clearly, not just value-wise but the reason it was done in light of where the team is at.

 

 

[Whorvat]

 

7 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

While "pundits" like Ray Ferraro are "perplexed" (i.e. clueless), those that actually played the game and understand it see it very clearly, not just value-wise but the reason it was done in light of where the team is at.

 

 

I am definitely for this trade, but Ray Ferraro played 1258 games in the NHL

[WeneedLumme]

Sure see a lot of mindless angst in this thread. Like the posters who are whining about the Canucks not taking any Dmen in this draft.

 

One claims the team has demonstrated a consistent pattern of not drafting Dmen, and chooses to repeatedly ignore the factual evidence to the contrary.

 

Another poster dumps a huge wall of text here claiming that JB is stupid to believe that it is possible to find Tanev quality Dmen among the undrafted college UFAs, conveniently ignoring the fact that Tanev was one of them.

 

And then there are the same dozen posters repeating over and over ad nauseam their delusions about how JB should have been able to steal this extremely desireable young power forward (since apparently all the NHL GMs are completely brain dead).

 

And of of course the mathematically challenged posters who rant on about how the one percent chance that the (future, conditional) first round pick we paid for this young top-6 power forward turns into a superstar means JB threw away a superstar. Cuz ya never know, d'uh.

Edited June 26, 2019 by WeneedLumme

[ynwa]

The trade has been made and we can only hope that it turns out to be a good one, obviously that's something that time will tell. However I do think that trading one's only first round pick is not a good move, no matter how low down the order you may be—who knows you may end up picking 23rd and just get lucky

[coryberg]

26 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Rather have neither anywhere near the roster.

Sadly that wasn't the option. We definitely got the lesser of 2 evils though.

[Gaudette Celly]

16 minutes ago, Whorvat said:

 

I am definitely for this trade, but Ray Ferraro played 1258 games in the NHL

To clarify:

 

"those that actually played the game and understand it (i.e. not just the game but the business) see it very clearly"

 

Not the first time he's thrown up his hands in bewilderment around what's happening here.  The problem is he apparently cannot think beyond one dimension, and why again, I hope he never takes a decision-making management seat in this organization.

[CaptainLinden16]

23 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

You’re doing that ass u me thing again by guessing at my intentions, even those of Yost now. I don’t think you even realize it, so I’m not going to stay on that. 

 

For your comments though, I get what you are saying, but I am convinced that there is another reason why you can’t concede the point about Tampa having a vastly superior record to the Canucks, for drafting past the second round, which has entirely been my point.

 

I think the article is much more than a simple conversational piece and addition to the convo, as you’ve put it. 

 

As I’ve said, THN Draft Edition has a separate breakdown on this topic and the Canucks are still awful, at 29th OA. Because that one is done since 2000, I think that gives enough time for each club to have, as I’ve said, go through multiple boom and bust roster phases, or rebuilds. 

 

Your point is that having a Hedman and Stamkos skews the data and the results are a lie. I disagree.

 

There are enough Top Canuck picks to balance out Yost’s Article, at least slightly. For THN’s, it’s all after the 2nd round... and the results are basically the same. I don’t think your argument is valid, hence this final note. 

 

Looking from multiple angles, the Canucks - not JB as you seem to always think the point is - are terrible at drafting past the 2nd round, and worse when using Yost’s “lies”. This is not a subjective agenda or narrative. 

 

Stats can be used to spin a narrative for sure, no doubt about it. We see it all the time in the Mainstream Media. Normally, I’d agree, but there is no bias in play here. Arguing that it’s too early to judge goes both ways and you can bet that in 5 or 10 years Tampa will be complaining about their poor representation in such a moving comparison, as they will surely be in rebuild mode by then.

 

Subjectively, I very much doubt that in that time the Canucks will move into the top 5-10 in these stats. 

I just dont really understand the need to evaluate any professional sports franchise on something over 20 years.  Too many variables.  Everything gets reflected into the context of now, so you can't blame me for assuming the anti-Jim bias; but as you said lets drop that...

 

The data that this author posted is awful and I stand by that.  It only takes into account home runs.  Walks, Singles and Doubles are meaningless in this data as they are not represented.  Home Runs are a lot easier to hit in the top 10 picks.  Vancouver's rating on these rankings is almost directly correlated to their league position as it is for most teams.  Boston and Winnipeg are far more impressive as they have had better teams over the last 4 seasons.  Tampa has super charged their team primarily by being terrible for stretches. 

 

That all being said, I believe Mike Gills was a very solid GM for his role with the franchise at the time.  I liked that he traded picks and prospects to acquire solid veteran players for playoff runs.  He made a lot of good acquisitions.    The value of a late 1st round pick or even a 2nd round pick isn't very high as far as expected performance.

 

If you showed the exact same table adjusted for expectations (either games player or total points) by draft position then we can have a substantial conversation about competency when it comes to drafting.  Drafting is predominantly a crap shoot because of the age of the players.  If they were 21 instead of 18 then the value of draft picks would go through the roof, but there are far too many variables with the different leagues (CHL, SHL, KHL, USHL) and the 18 year old 150 pound bodies.

 

Drafting success is largely perception.  Optically it looks amazing to draft Kucherov in the 2nd round.  Now you are king of the draft.  Do realize this also means the team that drafted him passed up on him once.  They never expected him to be MVP caliber.  There is a fair bit of fortune in that.  I think they drafted Namestikov ahead of him.  A direct comparable.  In their own minds they thought he was going to be a better player than Kucherov. 

 

I think development of young players is far more valuable and drafting ability.  There is always room to improve there.

 

Lastly, the worse the Canucks perform over the next 5-10 years the better they will look in these standings.  There is a reason Edmonton, Colorado and the New York Islanders are up there.  So you are essentially saying that the Canucks will be a better team in the future, good to hear!

[Gaudette Celly]

7 minutes ago, ynwa said:

The trade has been made and we can only hope that it turns out to be a good one, obviously that's something that time will tell. However I do think that trading one's only first round pick is not a good move, no matter how low down the order you may be—who knows you may end up picking 23rd and just get lucky

Didn't realize we only got one.

[PhillipBlunt]

7 minutes ago, coryberg said:

Sadly that wasn't the option. We definitely got the lesser of 2 evils though.

I don't see Spooner here by the beginning of the season.

[coryberg]

1 minute ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I don't see Spooner here by the beginning of the season.

That's a given, we have way too many forwards. He can light up the AHL and help our prospects get rolling.