[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[kingofsurrey]

6 minutes ago, Pears said:

You know you can’t use the “worst team over the last four years” card forever right?

Who used the term worst team in 4 years....    ?

 

My point is the Canucks have been a crappy team the last 4 years... but clearly not the worst..

 

Yet our GM propped up the club by selling future assets for mediocre borderline NHL players in attempt to maintain 25th overall.....

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, kingofsurrey said:

Who used the term worst team in 4 years....    ?

 

My point is the Canucks have been a crappy team the last 4 years... but clearly not the worst..

 

Yet our GM propped up the club by selling future assets for mediocre borderline NHL players in attempt to maintain 25th overall.....

First off, there is a steady progression in points.

 

second JT Miller is FAR from a borderline NHLer... 

[kingofsurrey]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

First off, there is a steady progression in points.

 

second JT Miller is FAR from a borderline NHLer... 

Agree on Miller, i think he is clearly talented and plays the game the right way...

 

[Smashian Kassian]

On 6/25/2019 at 8:20 AM, Baggins said:

When that first is delivered we may well be a playoff team.

We may & we may not. 

 

I'm sure Buffalo felt they were just about to make that step when they drafted Eichel, traded for ROR, traded for Lehner, had Reinhart/Risto, exc.

 

I'm sure EDM thought they were on the road to cup contending after making the playoffs & going to the second round.

 

I'm not saying we won't be a playoff team, I'd expect us to be by 2021 now, but you never know what can happen.

 

I think it'll come down to improving the defense ultimately, we have the forward group to atleast get a wildcard spot.

 

Quote

So as a GM you would pass on a player, you would love to have, and let another GM have him for less than actual value because the team trading him needs to move cap? That would make you a fool. As owner I'd be asking why you let another team get that player you need for peanuts. It's not like we overpaid on this deal, which is often the case when a team isn't under any pressure to move a player that you want.

 

No, I never said any of this. 

 

I was saying I thought Tampa Bay did a great job in this deal. 

 

Quote

The only way Tampa gets better than fair value is by waiting two years to get it. It's a possible, unlikely imo, reward in exchange for waiting.

Yeah but there's no way Tampa is going to get less than fair value when you consider the circumstances. Like I said, worse case for them its merely a fair deal.

 

And like I said before this is an asset they can move in the meanwhile, its not necessarily 'exchange for waiting', this pick will hold value for them up until the pick is made.

 

(And that point isn't 'pointless', yes we can move JT Miller too if we want. I'm not talking about him right now, just the pick)

Edited June 27, 2019 by Smashian Kassian

[Pears]

36 minutes ago, kingofsurrey said:

Who used the term worst team in 4 years....    ?

 

My point is the Canucks have been a crappy team the last 4 years... but clearly not the worst..

 

Yet our GM propped up the club by selling future assets for mediocre borderline NHL players in attempt to maintain 25th overall.....

Yea, calling J.T. Miller a borderline NHL player is a pretty good way to get people to not take you seriously. So much wrong in this post. 

[Silver Ghost]

6 minutes ago, Smashian Kassian said:

We may & we may not. 

 

I'm sure Buffalo felt they were just about to make that step when they drafted Eichel, traded for ROR, traded for Lehner, had Reinhart/Risto, exc.

 

I'm sure EDM thought they were on the road to cup contending after making the playoffs & going to the second round.

 

I'm not saying we won't be a playoff team, I'd expect us to be by 2021 now, but you never know what can happen.

 

I think it'll come down to improving the defense ultimately, we have the forward group to atleast get a wildcard spot.

 

 

No, I never said any of this. 

 

I was saying I thought Tampa Bay did a great job in this deal. 

 

Yeah but there's no way Tampa is going to get less than fair value when you consider the circumstances. Like I said, worse case for them its merely a fair deal.

 

And like I said before this is an asset they can move in the meanwhile, its not necessarily 'exchange for waiting', this pick will hold value for them up until the pick is made.

 

(And that point isn't 'pointless', yes we can move JT Miller too if we want. I'm not talking about him right now, just the pick)

The way the deal is structured though Tampa does not have the pick until the Canucks surrender it. So its not a current asset they could conceivably use between now and whatever draft they get the pick for. Thats not an insignificant detail here. They will be waiting for that asset in whatever form they then choose to use it. 

 

Even if it ends up a lottery pick that is not a guarantee the Canucks lose this trade. What Miller does has a say in that as well. And also who tb ultimately gets with that pick. Still too many variables.

 

This was as good a trade for both teams as I have seen in awhile. They both won imo.

[Silver Ghost]

As an aside to the above, i dont know of a single case where a team traded a right to a conditional pick before they actually received the pick. Correct me if I am wrong. 

[Smashian Kassian]

Just now, Silver Ghost said:

The way the deal is structured though Tampa does not have the pick until the Canucks surrender it. So its not a current asset they could conceivably use between now and whatever draft they get the pick for. Thats not an insignificant detail here. They will be waiting for that asset in whatever form they then choose to use it. 

 

Even if it ends up a lottery pick that is not a guarantee the Canucks lose this trade. What Miller does has a say in that as well. And also who tb ultimately gets with that pick. Still too many variables.

 

This was as good a trade for both teams as I have seen in awhile. They both won imo.

 

Right, my bad. So basically it'll take 1 year for TB to actually have the pick. Basically once we clinch playoffs or are mathematically eliminated then the pick is decided. So they do have wait 1 year, my bad. Still an asset for them in year 2.

 

I didn't like the deal at first, but upon reflection I agree its a fair deal if things play out like we expect, basically barring disaster. I agree with alot of your saying.

 

I do think its going to be a valuable asset for them no matter what, when I consider where they're at contending wise. Just as JT Miller is going to be a valuable asset for us for years to come. 

 

To me you can separate Tampa's end from our end of it, & just say 'I think they did good'. Which is where I was coming from. TBH I just didn't wanna ghost Baggins cause he's a respected poster in my eyes, but this whole debate has gotten exhausting, kinda tired of it.

 

I think we've kinda reached a middle ground anyways, in a general sense. Now we can all just be excited about JT & hope this team can the playoffs.

[Smashian Kassian]

11 minutes ago, Silver Ghost said:

As an aside to the above, i dont know of a single case where a team traded a right to a conditional pick before they actually received the pick. Correct me if I am wrong. 

Yeah I none come to the top of my head either, I'd have to think about that. 

[theo5789]

8 hours ago, Silver Ghost said:

The way the deal is structured though Tampa does not have the pick until the Canucks surrender it. So its not a current asset they could conceivably use between now and whatever draft they get the pick for. Thats not an insignificant detail here. They will be waiting for that asset in whatever form they then choose to use it. 

 

Even if it ends up a lottery pick that is not a guarantee the Canucks lose this trade. What Miller does has a say in that as well. And also who tb ultimately gets with that pick. Still too many variables.

 

This was as good a trade for both teams as I have seen in awhile. They both won imo.

Well said. In today's world, it's more about hockey trades rather than just trying to rip the other team off.

 

I think the ones that think this is a bad deal automatically assume the worst case scenario. They bring up Ottawa for example and they did indeed lose a very good pick, but it was a gong show there. Yet somehow they ignore that St Louis gave a potential lottery pick and half way through the season, it looked like a surefire top pick. We all know what happened. Before anyone gets in a huff for comparing to Ryan O'Reilly, Buffalo got way more in the deal too, but the point is they gave up an unprotected 1st in the deal who many view as gold here.

[Silver Ghost]

45 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

Well said. In today's world, it's more about hockey trades rather than just trying to rip the other team off.

 

I think the ones that think this is a bad deal automatically assume the worst case scenario. They bring up Ottawa for example and they did indeed lose a very good pick, but it was a gong show there. Yet somehow they ignore that St Louis gave a potential lottery pick and half way through the season, it looked like a surefire top pick. We all know what happened. Before anyone gets in a huff for comparing to Ryan O'Reilly, Buffalo got way more in the deal too, but the point is they gave up an unprotected 1st in the deal who many view as gold here.

Thats the thing. No one should be saying there is no risk, as there is. All trades have risk. But its definitely a calculated risk and that's what you want from a GM. 

[CaptainLinden16]

12 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I am curious what JB will do for the D. 

All I can say is that LS better be chained to QH, maybe an elastic one because Quinn can really fly. 

I don't think there are a lot of options now.  Now the hope is the Hughes and Joulevi make a significant difference.

[Kanukfanatic]

12 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

Who used the term worst team in 4 years....    ?

 

My point is the Canucks have been a crappy team the last 4 years... but clearly not the worst..

 

Yet our GM propped up the club by selling future assets for mediocre borderline NHL players in attempt to maintain 25th overall.....

Ok bub. JT Miller is a mediocre borderline player eh???

 

Haha...please tell us more.  

[coryberg]

11 hours ago, Silver Ghost said:

The way the deal is structured though Tampa does not have the pick until the Canucks surrender it. So its not a current asset they could conceivably use between now and whatever draft they get the pick for. Thats not an insignificant detail here. They will be waiting for that asset in whatever form they then choose to use it. 

Actually Tampa could trade that conditional pick tomorrow if they want. It would be the same pick under the same conditions.

 

3 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Before anyone gets in a huff for comparing to Ryan O'Reilly, Buffalo got way more in the deal too, but the point is they gave up an unprotected 1st in the deal who many view as gold here.

The pick was top 10 protected.

 

[theo5789]

Just now, coryberg said:

Actually Tampa could trade that conditional pick tomorrow if they want. It would be the same pick under the same conditions.

 

The pick was top 10 protected.

 

So same conditions as our pick. Either way for those who view the worst case scenario, the following year would be unprotected and at risk of being a lottery pick.

 

More reason for people to support this team and pushing our pick as low as possible rather than hoping that we end up with a horrible trade only so they can continue their Benning sucks tirade.

[Silver Ghost]

2 minutes ago, coryberg said:

Actually Tampa could trade that conditional pick tomorrow if they want. It would be the same pick under the same conditions.

 

The pick was top 10 protected.

 

Theoretically they could. But when was the last time you saw that happen?

 

There is a very small likelihood that either St Louis or an acquiring team would do so as there is so much uncertainty around the pick. Figuring out value on trading it would be a very difficult thing and either team would likely get less value from it than St Louis would get from keeping it. 

[Smashian Kassian]

14 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

 

More reason for people to support this team and pushing our pick as low as possible rather than hoping that we end up with a horrible trade only so they can continue their Benning sucks tirade.

Everyone wants the team to do well. 

 

Just cause your critical of some moves & arent card carrying memebers of the Jim Benning fan club doesnt mean you dont support the team.

 

Everyone would rather see a Stanley Cup parade than see Jim Benning fired.

 

[coryberg]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

So same conditions as our pick.

Close but not the same. The St Louis pick was top 10 protected. Our pick is lottery protected (top 15). 

[Gaudette Celly]

1 hour ago, Smashian Kassian said:

Everyone wants the team to do well. 

 

Just cause your critical of some moves & arent card carrying memebers of the Jim Benning fan club doesnt mean you dont support the team.

 

Everyone would rather see a Stanley Cup parade than see Jim Benning fired.

 

Sadly, you are wrong.  One yesterday was even laughing and cheering the recapture penalty.  The same one goes "team tank" before last season even started.

[Smashian Kassian]

9 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said:

Sadly, you are wrong.  One yesterday was even laughing and cheering the recapture penalty.  The same one goes "team tank" before last season even started.

 

Ahhh. Well in that case I speak for myself then.  srry Theo!