Jim Benning

[Darius]

Just now, The 5th Line said:

13 years who cares how long it takes, as long as it gets done.  You don't think those 2006-2008 picks helped St Louis with there success  through the 2010's?  They were a favorite for many of years actually and with the proper moves easily could of won the cup.

 

Pittsburgh 03 had first overall and 2 extra 3rds.  In 04 they had two extra 2nds and two extra 3rd.  In 05 they won a lottery for the best player since Mario Lemieux so isn't it fair they said screw the draft picks?  Or are you one of those who thinks Petey is a genrational talent as well..?  YOu said Pittsburgh has two generational talents?  See, no they have one, Crosby.  

 

I understand there is more than one way, you need to be good at all aspects.  But what team has had successful long term success and has won a cup?  Im giving you names of tons of team who at one point during their rebuild, hoarded picks like crazy.  You haven't given me anything.  

What you are not getting is that pick hoarding is a byproduct of most teams that go through a trajectory.  They sell off their vets and start again.   The biggest factor that wins cups is the top tier talent you get, usually at to top of the draft.  Buffalo has hoarded picks, as an example, for how long now...how is that working?

 

You still fail to answer the question.  What was the biggest factor in Pittsburgh's cup wins...the FOUR times they picked in the top TWO...or the 4 or 5 picks they got in the 3rd and 7th rounds in 3 years?  Come one be honest.

 

Arguing if Malkin is a generational talent or not is a moot point in this discussion. Fact is he was picked  SECOND overall and the IMPACT of that player TRUMPS anything pittsburgh did in the 3rd and 7th rounds like you are impying.

 

 

[the grinder]

3 hours ago, VegasCanuck said:

Here's the changes I think this team goes through over the summer;

 

Forward:

Out:

Eriksson - Retire after bonus paid. I think he knows that he's in Utica next season if he doesn't, and that's too far from where he's settled his family. I don't believe that he's a buyout option this summer, we would save more by sending him to Utica for a season and then buying him out next summer. Would actually work out better for us on the Cap. I think we have all the pressure for him to just call it a career and maybe pickup a position with the team.

Sutter - I think he's actually still effective when healthy, but I think Benning will look to move him out and make more room

Leivo - Like the guy, but I think they will opt for other guys from within at a cheaper cap hit.

Baertschi - He'll either be packed in a trade or bought out. 

 

In:

Toffoli - I think we resign him for about 6 million per season. He's looked good out there.

MacEwan - I think he's on this team out of camp unless he really screws up in camp.

 

Defense: - I think Benning wants to complete his makeover 

Out:

Tanev - I think signs in Toronto. Could be wrong here, but I think if we haven't made a major move to sign him by now, the team is looking at other options

Stecher - Would be sorry to see him leave, but I think he gets traded at the draft. Something along the lines of From Canucks: Stecher, 5th rounder, To Canucks 2nd Round pick. He's solid defense, but I think Benning wants to upgrade size and make us harder to play against in our own zone.

Benn - Either flipped or sent to Utica in camp. We actually save slightly more in cap space by sending him to Utica for a season.

 

In:

Tyson Barrie - I think he wants to be in Vancouver, and I think Benning has tried to acquire him a few times. I think he signs here for somewhere around 6 - 6.5 million per. Benning wants more horsepower on defense and this would help provide it.

Tryamkin - I think he signs here as soon as his season in Russia ends. He's the upgrade to Stecher, will help to cut down shots in the slot and make us much more intimidating to play against. I believe that Benning will chase him hard this month and bring him back.

Juolevi - I believe that he will be on this team next year. I think they want him to finish in Utica and have one more summer of training, but I think he's going to round out our third pairing next season.

 

Note: Fantenberg - I think we sign him back for around 1 million per, he's a good sound 7th D. He's probably peaked in capability, I think they will use him in the pressbox and on hand for injuries, and leave the kids (Rafferty, Woo, Rathbone, possibly Utinen) down in Utica to play bigger minutes and gain more experience. I think Rafferty is first call up.

 

Goal - I think both Markstrom and Demko are back in net next season.

 

With an estimate of 1 million increase in cap, I think we'll be able to do this, resign the guys that we need to and still have a little wiggle room. Although I hope I'm wrong, I think Ferland spends the rest of his contract and career on LTIR and then retires.

 

About $15,735,000 out in contracts, should give us roughly 34,000,000 in cap space

 

Contract breakdown

Toffoli - 6 million

Virtanen - 2.5 million

Motte - 1.25 million

Gaudette - 2.25 million

MacEwan - 750k One Way (takes less for 1 way deal)

Barrie - 6.5 million

Tryamkin - 3.5 million (I might be a little high on this)

Juolevi - Already signed, but would be his cap hit of 834k

Fantenberg - 1 million

Markstrom - 6 - 6.5 million

 

Total roughly 30.585, plus returning, we should actually have about 3 million in space if we get the 1 million increase.

 

This is approximately how I see it playing out, will be interested to see how close I am.

6.5 for barrie   for what 7 years   ?   I don't think so   

[Devron]

2 minutes ago, the grinder said:

6.5 for barrie   for what 7 years   ?   I don't think so   

Be nice to see Barrie sign somewhere right on July 1st so we can stop seeing this come up. We need defence not offence. What’s there not to understand here lol

[sassbs]

4 minutes ago, the grinder said:

6.5 for barrie   for what 7 years   ?   I don't think so   

I would do 4 

[VegasCanuck]

4 minutes ago, the grinder said:

6.5 for barrie   for what 7 years   ?   I don't think so   

I'm guessing, but I think 6 - 6.5 is realistically what he would sign for if he wound up coming here. I would guess 4 - 5 year term.

 

Now, the predictions I made, aren't necessarily what I think we should do, its how I think summer will play out.

 

Time will tell if I'm right or not.

 

[Darius]

Just now, The 5th Line said:

Well my argument ties in with other issues like cap structure, players ready and in on entry level deals, having extra pieces to shed to get rid of players like Loui.  Our cap is tight and we will be losing player in the offseason for nothing.  It's not about the players that come from the draft its about assets, surplus etc.  

alright, now you are introducing a bunch of other topics.  I get up at 5am so im hitting the sack.  Maybe we can continue tomorrow...i actually like discussing this with you.

[CanadianRugby]

30 minutes ago, Devron44 said:

Pastrnak is cheating. Practically the whole league passed on him lol

True, same can be said about Boeser though if we're using that argument. 

[canuck73_3]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

True, same can be said about Boeser though if we're using that argument. 

Boeser was picked in the area where he was ranked. Pastrnak was ranked as high as 16th on some scouting reports. 

[CanadianRugby]

21 minutes ago, sassbs said:

You can’t write off OJ just yet.   Thachuk is good but he’s a puke!  We don’t know how OJ will turn out.   And you really want Nylander on this team??  Drafting is a hit in a miss.  It takes a special GM to spot those rare gems.  Yes he missed out on Pasternak  but he also nailed Pettersson and Hughes.  Virtanen Is slowly coming around.  How many years did it take cam Neely to come around? Or Bertuzzi? 

I'm not writing OJ off but we have to go off what we've seen since they were drafted.  One has turned into one of the best young players in the league and the other hasn't made the NHL.  If it was OJ on Calgary and Tkachuk in Vancouver then 100% of people on CDC would be laughing and calling their GM an idiot for passion on Tkachuk. 

 

Nylander started his career with back to back 60 point seasons.  The only thing bad about him is his contract.  

 

Cam Neely had 72 points in his 4th season.  Virtanen has 94 points in 5 seasons put together.  

 

Comparing Virtanen to Cam Neely and still arguing that OJ might be a better pick than Tkachuk is just crazy talk. 

[the grinder]

2 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Well my argument ties in with other issues like cap structure, players ready and in on entry level deals, having extra pieces to shed to get rid of players like Loui.  Our cap is tight and we will be losing player in the offseason for nothing.  It's not about the players that come from the draft its about assets, surplus etc.  

well the canucks do have players on entry level contracts  petey , hughes , gaudette , and big zack  ,  there is 4  on entry level  deals  next year there will 2 to 3 more entry level contracts,  Used an extra piece to get a injury replacement for brock  and , every team loses a few pieces for nothing ,,. So Where do you get assets from ?did pitts just find Malkin Letang Fleury and Crosby on the side of the road?   drafting well gets you assets , because 95% of nhl players are drafted  lol

[the grinder]

2 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

I'm not writing OJ off but we have to go off what we've seen since they were drafted.  One has turned into one of the best young players in the league and the other hasn't made the NHL.  If it was OJ on Calgary and Tkachuk in Vancouver then 100% of people on CDC would be laughing and calling their GM an idiot for passion on Tkachuk. 

 

Nylander started his career with back to back 60 point seasons.  The only thing bad about him is his contract.  

 

Cam Neely had 72 points in his 4th season.  Virtanen has 94 points in 5 seasons put together.  

 

Comparing Virtanen to Cam Neely and still arguing that OJ might be a better pick than Tkachuk is just crazy talk. 

no willies  cornrows were pretty bad too 

[Devron]

Wrong thread

Edited March 3, 2020 by Devron44

[CanadianRugby]

6 minutes ago, the grinder said:

no willies  cornrows were pretty bad too 

Haha.. European fashion is just way ahead of the game lol

[Devron]

37 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

True, same can be said about Boeser though if we're using that argument. 

Fair. That was based on what was missed by JB. So I guess the real question is how many GM’s nail their pick every year. If you look at past history, there are many busts in the first round and if you go through the draft list and start sorting teams practically every team in the leagued missed somewhere and another team made the better pick. There’s no doubt as of in this moment that Petey and Hughes should have went 1st overall in their draft classX that could change slightly in time of course. If Joulevi and Virtanen were the wrong picks and you include Boeser. We nailed 60% Over the past 5 year. Potentially 66% In 6 years if Podz turn out to be the right pick. I would almost bet thats very good 

[theo5789]

6 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

What teams didn't hoard picks and went on to be successful?  

 

I've literally been through all of this in the "Next 5 years and prospects "  thread.  Look it up yourself

 

Kings prior to their cups 

 

2006 - 9 picks

2007- 10 picks

2008 - 9 picks

2009 - 10 picks

2012/2014= 2  cups

 

Blackhawks 

 

2004 - 17 picks

2005 - 12 picks

2006 - 9 picks

2010 = cup

 

2010 - 10 picks

2011 - 11 picks

2012 - 8 picks

2013/2015 = 2 cups

 

In the last 15 years chicago hasn't had less than 7 picks in a draft up until just the last season.  They were asset rich and could shed UFA's, had multiple trade chips to repair and retool.  The model franchise of the cap era.

 

 

Pittsburgh -  They drafted like crazy during the Crosby/Malkin drafts and have been in win now mode ever since legitimately drafting a generational player, a 1st overall goalie, Malkin, Letang and Jordan Staal.  They kept all their top 100 picks from 03-07.  Draft well and draft plenty = 2 cups

 

 

Boston - Is the one team you can look at who has had success without hoarding picks.  Weird, Boston, where GMJB came from?  Same philosophy I guess

Boston model here we come

 

Canucks 

 

2014 - 7 picks

2015 - 7 picks no 2nd 

2016 - 6 picks no 2nd 

2017 - 8 picks

2018 - 6 picks

2019 - 9 picks

 

 

 

It's about having assets to use in trade and negotiating.  Instead of using those assets we should have we just patch holes with expensive UFA signings.  How good is the leadership provided by Beagle, Sutter, Schaller, Gagner, Loui, Roussel, etc if they are countering that by costing us games?  Sutter and Roussel are directly responsible for a brutal collapse.  We are overpaying in free agency and it is killing us.  We are going to lose more FA assets this offseason unless a financial miracle happens and we still don't even know if we're good enough for a wildcard spot, and our injured goalie is now licking his chops because he knows we have to pay up now, so that's cool 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay let's look into this.

 

LA Kings 2006-2009. 38 picks. IMO, 6 impactful players part of this group. Lewis, Simmonds, Martinez, Doughty (2nd overall pick), Voynov (relatively short term because we know what happened here), and Brayden Schenn (more impactful elsewhere). Some in the depth group in Bernier, King, Clifford, Nolan, Dowd. 13 top 100 pick duds which including Vey (personal distractions), Hickey (4th overall pick, made a bit of a career elsewhere), and Teubert (13th overall). 2010 and 2011, they started selling picks and became Cup champions eventually.

 

Chicago Blackhawks 2004-2006. 38 picks. IMO, 5 impactful players. Bolland, Bickell, Brouwer, Hjalmarsson and Toews (3rd overall). Can't even say they got much depth from the rest and this included a dud 3rd overall pick in Barker and 7th overall Skille. Eventually they would nab Kane (1st overall).

 

Blackhawks 2010-2012. 29 picks. IMO, 4 impactful players. Hayes (successful elsewhere), Saad, Shaw, Teravainen (successful elsewhere). 3 depth options in Nordstrom, Danault, and Hinostroza all of which has found their success elsewhere. A couple of 1st round duds.

 

Pittsburgh had a nice run of top 2 picks and have made them count. Without those picks, their draft aside from Letang and Goligoski hasn't amounted to much from 2003-2007.

 

Now the Canucks take on all of this. From the examples above, it didn't seem to be about the volume of picks, but having the right picks to put the team over the top. They've all had lotto winning picks, something we never got the luxury of exasperated by the draft lotto changes in the midst of our poorest rebuild seasons. They had a volume of prospects, but not necessarily quality prospects. Their cup winning teams were also built from acquired/signed players with their core being the drafted high end picks. It is demonstrated that even missing on some 1st rounders didn't phase them so if OJ does bust (as some seem to want to happen so badly for whatever reason), then it's not the end of the world. They've all demonstrated that they could trade away prospects to improve their rosters.

 

So IMO, there isn't much to indicate that the volume of picks is the difference towards them becoming Cup champions. I would say these teams have acquired elite talent through the draft by having at least 2 top 3 picks. And even with that said, it's not even a surefire way to turn a team into a champion as we have seen teams like Edmonton, Buffalo, Toronto, NJ collect top picks and still have struggled for years. So it's also important to surround your quality picks with veteran support. Boston, Washington and St Louis have not accumulated a ton of picks and have won championships as well.

 

I think what we can take from all this is that there is not one way to rebuild and not one way to become a championship team. Hoarding picks doesn't necessarily net you more quality prospects, it just gives you more lottery tickets.

 

At the end of the day, we have not skipped a rebuild and we are still rebuilding as we are still expecting a surge of youth to change the face of our team. Just because we are pushing for the playoffs does not mean we are done and "all in". We are continuing to develop our prospects and playoff hockey is another step in letting the young guys get a taste and to gauge the team. Our team is trending up and the prospect pool is still rich as we are making the picks that we do have count. We will see over time which prospects make the grade, but I have a feeling that our batting average of impactful/depth prospects will be as good or even better than that of the ones brought up.

[spook007]

12 hours ago, Alflives said:

And who in management responsible for these picks?  And he’s moving on.  

You can’t put a gun to his head Alf, if in deed he is moving. 
Do we know for sure he’s leaving? And if so, what is the reason?

Maybe somebody offered him the assistant GM position or even a GM position?

Or maybe family issues etc etc etc...maybe he slept with JB’s wife...

 

I may have missed some info somewhere, but then please enlighten me, cause bashing our GM for something that, A: hasn’t happened yet or B: lack of knowledge, is just being tabloid whiny.... 

[spook007]

10 hours ago, Lazurus said:

I think it was the 3 mil a year for 5 years that helped him decide to just sit pat., Oh you didn't know about that? Okay ditto with Gilman, another few mil paid them to not work. Torts too but the team had to release him from his deal and then he signed an even bigger one and won the Adams didn't he? He left 2 mil a year for 4 mil a year.

Gillis only became available this year and he has been mentioned for the NJD job already.

 

You didn't know this?

Are you suggesting we should have kept Torts here???

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, VegasCanuck said:

Here's the changes I think this team goes through over the summer;

 

Forward:

Out:

Eriksson - Retire after bonus paid. I think he knows that he's in Utica next season if he doesn't, and that's too far from where he's settled his family. I don't believe that he's a buyout option this summer, we would save more by sending him to Utica for a season and then buying him out next summer. Would actually work out better for us on the Cap. I think we have all the pressure for him to just call it a career and maybe pickup a position with the team.

Sutter - I think he's actually still effective when healthy, but I think Benning will look to move him out and make more room

Leivo - Like the guy, but I think they will opt for other guys from within at a cheaper cap hit.

Baertschi - He'll either be packed in a trade or bought out. 

 

In:

Toffoli - I think we resign him for about 6 million per season. He's looked good out there.

MacEwan - I think he's on this team out of camp unless he really screws up in camp.

 

Defense: - I think Benning wants to complete his makeover 

Out:

Tanev - I think signs in Toronto. Could be wrong here, but I think if we haven't made a major move to sign him by now, the team is looking at other options

Stecher - Would be sorry to see him leave, but I think he gets traded at the draft. Something along the lines of From Canucks: Stecher, 5th rounder, To Canucks 2nd Round pick. He's solid defense, but I think Benning wants to upgrade size and make us harder to play against in our own zone.

Benn - Either flipped or sent to Utica in camp. We actually save slightly more in cap space by sending him to Utica for a season.

 

In:

Tyson Barrie - I think he wants to be in Vancouver, and I think Benning has tried to acquire him a few times. I think he signs here for somewhere around 6 - 6.5 million per. Benning wants more horsepower on defense and this would help provide it.

Tryamkin - I think he signs here as soon as his season in Russia ends. He's the upgrade to Stecher, will help to cut down shots in the slot and make us much more intimidating to play against. I believe that Benning will chase him hard this month and bring him back.

Juolevi - I believe that he will be on this team next year. I think they want him to finish in Utica and have one more summer of training, but I think he's going to round out our third pairing next season.

 

Note: Fantenberg - I think we sign him back for around 1 million per, he's a good sound 7th D. He's probably peaked in capability, I think they will use him in the pressbox and on hand for injuries, and leave the kids (Rafferty, Woo, Rathbone, possibly Utinen) down in Utica to play bigger minutes and gain more experience. I think Rafferty is first call up.

 

Goal - I think both Markstrom and Demko are back in net next season.

 

With an estimate of 1 million increase in cap, I think we'll be able to do this, resign the guys that we need to and still have a little wiggle room. Although I hope I'm wrong, I think Ferland spends the rest of his contract and career on LTIR and then retires.

 

About $15,735,000 out in contracts, should give us roughly 34,000,000 in cap space

 

Contract breakdown

Toffoli - 6 million

Virtanen - 2.5 million

Motte - 1.25 million

Gaudette - 2.25 million

MacEwan - 750k One Way (takes less for 1 way deal)

Barrie - 6.5 million

Tryamkin - 3.5 million (I might be a little high on this)

Juolevi - Already signed, but would be his cap hit of 834k

Fantenberg - 1 million

Markstrom - 6 - 6.5 million

 

Total roughly 30.585, plus returning, we should actually have about 3 million in space if we get the 1 million increase.

 

This is approximately how I see it playing out, will be interested to see how close I am.

Doubt LE walks away from 5 million (last two years).   Maybe he will his last year - or maybe then we can do a Marleau type deal (cost would be like Backes next TDL).  Hope he does.  That said where's the money for EP and Hughes coming from if we use it all up like this?  Sutter and Pearson?  Not enough, and they need replacements.  Suppose it's possible.  Getting Tryamkin back could be nice too.  Hurts my head to think about it...hope JBs cap plans work out....QH is playing himself into one boffo deal. 

 

[sassbs]

8 hours ago, CanadianRugby said:

I'm not writing OJ off but we have to go off what we've seen since they were drafted.  One has turned into one of the best young players in the league and the other hasn't made the NHL.  If it was OJ on Calgary and Tkachuk in Vancouver then 100% of people on CDC would be laughing and calling their GM an idiot for passion on Tkachuk. 

 

Nylander started his career with back to back 60 point seasons.  The only thing bad about him is his contract.  

 

Cam Neely had 72 points in his 4th season.  Virtanen has 94 points in 5 seasons put together.  

 

Comparing Virtanen to Cam Neely and still arguing that OJ might be a better pick than Tkachuk is just crazy talk. 

F that!   Even here in Toronto, everyone hates Nylander.   There’s a reason for that.  All this guy does is float and is a perimeter player. come playoff time he is nowhere to be found.  He’s a season stat player.  
 

 

 

[aqua59]

13 hours ago, Baggins said:

Pssst... pretty sure Benning got a two year extension last summer......

lol You are right.  I stand corrected.