Can the Canucks afford to let Chris Tanev walk away?

[RogersTowell]

Of our three big contracts that need signing, I'd say Toffoli is the one that would be easiest to pass on if we're too tight on cash.

[vannuck59]

9 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

So you want to replace our best shutdown guy with a defensive liability?  Our D would be almost as bad as Toronto's if we did that.

RR would be a lot better on this team 

[King Heffy]

2 minutes ago, vannuck59 said:

RR would be a lot better on this team 

No he wouldn't.  He can't play defense at all. 

[Googlie]

8 hours ago, King Heffy said:

We can use Stecher's spot to work in some youth without throwing them in the deep end.

I don't get the rush to dump Stecher.  He is young, versatile (can play anywhere from first pair to 3rd), hits (like Motte, doesn't deliver crushing body blows, but lets the oppo know he is there), is mobile and has a decent shot. And wants to play here, so home town discount applies.

 

"Pass it to bulis" sums it up ...

 

http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/troy-stecher-s-closest-comparable-as-he-heads-to-arbitration-is-in-jim-benning-s-family-1.23368244

[IBatch]

40 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

So you want to replace our best shutdown guy with a defensive liability?  Our D would be almost as bad as Toronto's if we did that.

Our team defense is already bad if anyone hasn’t noticed.  It’s ranked around 9 worst overall.  Of course the forwards also have some responsibility in that which makes it even worse given the vets we have to help with that - shouldn’t we do better... oh yeah this teams built for the playoffs I forgot.    Markstrom and Tanev are must haves next year IMO... how did the team do with TT in the lineup and Markstrom not?  Demko didn’t do well during that stretch - maybe the pressure was too much - regardless the team won’t get in the playoffs next year without both those guys in the lineup.   It’s ok if he doesn’t play a full season too as it gives us a look at Rafferty or whomever... maybe Rafferty gets a full time job and Stetcher is gone who knows.  This team won’t compete and have the luxury to make mistakes without Markstrom and Tanev in the lineup.  Why is 30 the new 35?  Ageism only the NHL is a real issue right now as a result of the cap.   A lot of defenseman have their best seasons in their 30’s including Edler’s best year in a long time.      
 

IMO the UFA musts are Markstrom then Tanev - TT could back-fire just as easily as work out ... Tanev on a flat cap one year deal makes a lot of sense for both parties.  He’s not even listed in the top 20 best UFAs this year by SN.   He won’t get a 3/4 year deal by anyone - and he knows it.  Best he can hope for is working with our team in a descending scale of one or two year deals until he’s done.    And fortunately for him and us it works as our r side is barren almost. 
 

So yes I agree on hard pass for Risto. Rather keep our picks and prospects and play a better defensive player then do that any day. 

Edited July 21, 2020 by IBatch

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, Googlie said:

I don't get the rush to dump Stecher.  He is young, versatile (can play anywhere from first pair to 3rd), hits (like Motte, doesn't deliver crushing body blows, but lets the oppo know he is there), is mobile and has a decent shot. And wants to play here, so home town discount applies.

 

"Pass it to bulis" sums it up ...

 

http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/troy-stecher-s-closest-comparable-as-he-heads-to-arbitration-is-in-jim-benning-s-family-1.23368244

Stetcher will get a raise the team can’t afford.  Well who knows really.   That said Rafferty is the heir apparent and he won’t cost nearly as much.   Or maybe we sign another cheaper option like Benn or Fatenburg last season.   Agree he’s not so bad - but cost savings / Hutton treatment is all it’s about.   And giving the guys like Rafferty a chance when the time comes. 

[IBatch]

36 minutes ago, vannuck59 said:

RR would be a lot better on this team 

Not likely.  

[IBatch]

41 minutes ago, RogersTowell said:

Of our three big contracts that need signing, I'd say Toffoli is the one that would be easiest to pass on if we're too tight on cash.

Yep.   Cut our losses and move on.   And hope this playoffs are worth it.  JVs PPM were comparable.  Just go with the devil we know on a much shorter term and less costly contract.  The days of making this a UFA has been club are all but over (with the exception of the RHD - that’s where the money will need to be spent - but not quite yet). 

Edited July 21, 2020 by IBatch

[vannuck59]

1 hour ago, King Heffy said:

No he wouldn't.  He can't play defense at all. 

You dont know paired with Edler he would be a great edition.

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, vannuck59 said:

I say go all out and target Rasmus Ristolainen in a trade swapping Virtanen, Stecher and a First.  Sign TT and  JM to 6 mil deals 4 years Send Benn  and LE to the minors. Trade SB and a Third to Detroit with a 7th coming back.  Dont sign Tanev.  

Unlike others, I'm for acquiring Risto. I don't think that package gets it done though. Stecher has little value as an RFA that we can't afford to re-sign. I believe they have an abundance of RD so Stecher doesn't hold much value to them in that sense either. So it's really Virtanen and a 1st for their top minute all situations dman.

 

With that said, I don't think we can afford him, JM and TT. Moving Sven isn't enough. The amount we save on sending Benn and LE down would be mostly negated to the fact that we have to bring up players to replace them. We only save just over a million by sending them down and at best replace them with a minimum wager (or don't go with a 23 man roster) which only really saves us a total of 500k between them.

[Rindiculous]

Just saying you all have to take into consideration the flat cap.  Players like Tanev, Stecher, Toffoli, and even Markstrom for that matter would not be able to get much this year on the open market.  A player like Stecher could see less interest than Ben Hutton last year.  So before we say that all these guys are getting raises, you’ve gotta consider the macroeconomics of the entire league.  If I was Benning I would see this and try to play hardball because of this.  You want to try UFA?  Good luck, you’re gonna need it if you want a job next year.

[IBatch]

37 minutes ago, Rindiculous said:

Just saying you all have to take into consideration the flat cap.  Players like Tanev, Stecher, Toffoli, and even Markstrom for that matter would not be able to get much this year on the open market.  A player like Stecher could see less interest than Ben Hutton last year.  So before we say that all these guys are getting raises, you’ve gotta consider the macroeconomics of the entire league.  If I was Benning I would see this and try to play hardball because of this.  You want to try UFA?  Good luck, you’re gonna need it if you want a job next year.

What a ridinculous idea ha ha.  Yes that’s true to a degree.  The top UFAs will still likely garner a lot of interest and get their pay-days - unfortunately for us Markstrom is one of them ... fortunately TT and definitely Tanev are not.  It should help overall but it won’t help enough to sign all of them without quite a lot of movement.   Do a spreadsheet if need be.   Even if Markstrom and TT and Tanev all sign for 3 million collectively combined for less then expected it’s just a start.  Best case IMO is Tanev signs a one year contract at flat cap.   And TT agrees to a 4.5 x 4 deal also basically flat.  Markstrom 5 x 4 (and a NMC).    We are still short by a fair amount and haven’t done Stecher, JV, AG yet.   Stecher can be replaced.    JV cap will go up around 1 million almost the same with AG.   Benn and Stecher both have to go, as does another 3-4 million to pay for the rest.   IMO Pearson is the likely casualty IF we sign TT.  If not no big deal we still have Pearson.    Would be a x-mas miracle if all it cost was Roussel, Leivo, Stetcher and Benn to fit the rest in.   Don’t forget the bonuses and Spooner.    

[theo5789]

18 minutes ago, IBatch said:

What a ridinculous idea ha ha.  Yes that’s true to a degree.  The top UFAs will still likely garner a lot of interest and get their pay-days - unfortunately for us Markstrom is one of them ... fortunately TT and definitely Tanev are not.  It should help overall but it won’t help enough to sign all of them without quite a lot of movement.   Do a spreadsheet if need be.   Even if Markstrom and TT and Tanev all sign for 3 million collectively combined for less then expected it’s just a start.  Best case IMO is Tanev signs a one year contract at flat cap.   And TT agrees to a 4.5 x 4 deal also basically flat.  Markstrom 5 x 4 (and a NMC).    We are still short by a fair amount and haven’t done Stecher, JV, AG yet.   Stecher can be replaced.    JV cap will go up around 1 million almost the same with AG.   Benn and Stecher both have to go, as does another 3-4 million to pay for the rest.   IMO Pearson is the likely casualty IF we sign TT.  If not no big deal we still have Pearson.    Would be a x-mas miracle if all it cost was Roussel, Leivo, Stetcher and Benn to fit the rest in.   Don’t forget the bonuses and Spooner.    

Current RD UFAs (in order IMO) are Pietrangelo (we'll see if he even makes it to UFA), then Barrie (although his season has been underwhelming, but no other offensive options available bumps his value up), then it comes down to Tanev, Ceci and Hamonic. Ceci and Hamonic are going to be about the same price range as Tanev. So I'd argue that he's within the top 3 available in his position.

 

Aside from Hall and Hoffman, Toffoli is certainly within the upper regions of best available forward UFAs with Dadonov and maybe Namestikov. It drops off to Mikael Granlund, Craig Smith, Jesper Fast and maybe Simmonds and Galchenyuk. I might be missing a name or two, but it just shows that Toffoli is also a relatively highly ranked UFA.

 

Luckily we have the team factor of Marky and Tanev that may give us discounts. Not sure about Toffoli yet, but I imagine he's limiting himself to want to stay out West.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, theo5789 said:

Current RD UFAs (in order IMO) are Pietrangelo (we'll see if he even makes it to UFA), then Barrie (although his season has been underwhelming, but no other offensive options available bumps his value up), then it comes down to Tanev, Ceci and Hamonic. Ceci and Hamonic are going to be about the same price range as Tanev. So I'd argue that he's within the top 3 available in his position.

 

Aside from Hall and Hoffman, Toffoli is certainly within the upper regions of best available forward UFAs with Dadonov and maybe Namestikov. It drops off to Mikael Granlund, Craig Smith, Jesper Fast and maybe Simmonds and Galchenyuk. I might be missing a name or two, but it just shows that Toffoli is also a relatively highly ranked UFA.

 

Luckily we have the team factor of Marky and Tanev that may give us discounts. Not sure about Toffoli yet, but I imagine he's limiting himself to want to stay out West.

RW Hoffman and Dadanov are a tier above TT as far as the rest of the league is concerned with this years crop of available forwards - enough to likely command a bit better money although I guess that’s subjective.   Also TT age is good for a longer term deal then Dadanov but he’s definitely proved his value.  Three seasons in a row close to 30 goals over a full season  and 60-70  - a lot better then TT has managed over his career.   That said as far a dollars goes they are all in for a bit of a reality check.   Tanev was listed as an honourable mention in this class of top 20 UFAs by SN, TT 10 and Markstrom 6.    Of the three partial to Hoffman having watched him the most but would be stoked if we could afford the luxury to add any of them.  Alex P is probably not going anywhere ... what a coup though if we did get him.   Don’t have any interest in Barrie - would prefer to stick with Tanev and sign JV for likely the same money. 

[theo5789]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

RW Hoffman and Dadanov are a tier above TT as far as the rest of the league is concerned with this years crop of available forwards - enough to likely command a bit better money although I guess that’s subjective.   Also TT age is good for a longer term deal then Dadanov but he’s definitely proved his value.  Three seasons in a row close to 30 goals over a full season  and 60-70  - a lot better then TT has managed over his career.   That said as far a dollars goes they are all in for a bit of a reality check.   Tanev was listed as an honourable mention in this class of top 20 UFAs by SN, TT 10 and Markstrom 6.    Of the three partial to Hoffman having watched him the most but would be stoked if we could afford the luxury to add any of them.  Alex P is probably not going anywhere ... what a coup though if we did get him.   Don’t have any interest in Barrie - would prefer to stick with Tanev and sign JV for likely the same money. 

Well I did mention Hoffman and Hall in the top tier. Dadonov has good career numbers so far, but as you mentioned, he's older and Toffoli has a better two way game IMO as he's been on the PK with LA. So it depends if you want more of an all out offensive player or a two way guy, so all things being equal, I put them around the same secondary tier.

 

Smart defensive players are always underrated. They have Dustin Byfuglien on the list for his name despite him missing an entire season out of shape and battling an injury. There are a few forwards on the list that I wouldn't put above Tanev. Barrie, I just find very overrated. I'd say Tanev is very similar to Hamonic (Hamonic is more physical, but I think Tanev has better IQ) in their defensive roles and both have injury issues, yet SN has Hamonic at 12.

 

I think the point is they are indeed near the top of their UFA class, so they do have leverage. The only thing bringing them down is the market.

[Chris12345]

8 hours ago, Googlie said:

I don't get the rush to dump Stecher.  He is young, versatile (can play anywhere from first pair to 3rd), hits (like Motte, doesn't deliver crushing body blows, but lets the oppo know he is there), is mobile and has a decent shot. And wants to play here, so home town discount applies.

 

"Pass it to bulis" sums it up ...

 

http://www.vancourier.com/pass-it-to-bulis/troy-stecher-s-closest-comparable-as-he-heads-to-arbitration-is-in-jim-benning-s-family-1.23368244

I'm not a Stecher fan. Sure he works hard but I only want one smurf on the blue line and Hughes isn't leaving.

 

I can't imagine Myers getting hurt and Edler getting a penalty. Every d pairing on the pk would have a smurf. If I was a forward I'd be licking my chops.

 

His shot terrible and his first pass average at best. 

 

 

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

I'm not a Stecher fan. Sure he works hard but I only want one smurf on the blue line and Hughes isn't leaving.

 

I can't imagine Myers getting hurt and Edler getting a penalty. Every d pairing on the pk would have a smurf. If I was a forward I'd be licking my chops.

 

His shot terrible and his first pass average at best. 

 

 

Hate to have to agree to this because at least he has a lion heart - but when it comes to size - Burke is correct in thinking it does matter for defenseman.   It’s ok to go with the current trend of fast excellent skating small PMDs, unfortunately for Stetcher he doesn’t offer much offensively and I don’t think it would be too hard to replace Stecher with a one year pro deal like JB did with Fatenburg last year.   Save us a couple million and by signing Tanev as well for a year you know Rafferty will get some games too ... plus it forces Rafferty to beat out the new signing and not get gifted a spot like what happens in TO these days just to save on cap.    Rafferty is 6’2”......

[IBatch]

12 hours ago, theo5789 said:

Well I did mention Hoffman and Hall in the top tier. Dadonov has good career numbers so far, but as you mentioned, he's older and Toffoli has a better two way game IMO as he's been on the PK with LA. So it depends if you want more of an all out offensive player or a two way guy, so all things being equal, I put them around the same secondary tier.

 

Smart defensive players are always underrated. They have Dustin Byfuglien on the list for his name despite him missing an entire season out of shape and battling an injury. There are a few forwards on the list that I wouldn't put above Tanev. Barrie, I just find very overrated. I'd say Tanev is very similar to Hamonic (Hamonic is more physical, but I think Tanev has better IQ) in their defensive roles and both have injury issues, yet SN has Hamonic at 12.

 

I think the point is they are indeed near the top of their UFA class, so they do have leverage. The only thing bringing them down is the market.

I’d also prefer TT to Dadanov, the extra cap it will likely cost doesn’t seem worth it but for sure he’s a more established first line  player, where as TT is an established middle six guy.   That said I’m not sure he’s anything more then a rental...I hope JB can swing it but not if it costs us any of the 7 guys and picks etc.   The cost seems too steep when we can wait a year and do it for nothing added.   Ideally the money we can save can be used to help our defense.  BB is on a mission and looks like he’s come to camp possessed - TG says he looks better then he has so far - better then this and last year for sure.    The best I can figure is we swap out Pearson for TT , trade Roussel and Benn don’t sign Stetcher or Leivo and that should be enough as they won’t be getting as much as they might have had the cap went up.  JV could be moved to L wing or Ferland and Bear could co-manage the L side ... pays for spooner and bonus overages too.  
 

Oh and I agree Hominic/Tanev are good comparables.  Ceci ... well he’s ok too.   Really really wonder what they’d get on the one market though.   Remember last year it was either Myers or what’s his name in TO that ended up signing in CAR for a lot less then folks thought as the best D (Myers was better for sure even if they both played RHD) around 4 million?  Wouldn’t be surprised at all if all three of these guys in the market would get deals in the 3-4 range for 2-3 years and that’s it including Tanev.   At least with us he has history - I see it as a flat cap one year deal. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by IBatch

[theo5789]

17 minutes ago, IBatch said:

I’d also prefer TT to Dadanov, the extra cap it will likely cost doesn’t seem worth it but for sure he’s a more established first line  player, where as TT is an established middle six guy.   That said I’m not sure he’s anything more then a rental...I hope JB can swing it but not if it costs us any of the 7 guys and picks etc.   The cost seems too steep when we can wait a year and do it for nothing added.   Ideally the money we can save can be used to help our defense.  BB is on a mission and looks like he’s come to camp possessed - TG says he looks better then he has so far - better then this and last year for sure.    The best I can figure is we swap out Pearson for TT , trade Roussel and Benn don’t sign Stetcher or Leivo and that should be enough as they won’t be getting as much as they might have had the cap went up.  JV could be moved to L wing or Ferland and Bear could co-manage the L side ... pays for spooner and bonus overages too.  

The only issue I have with moving Pearson is his chemistry with Bo. I had thought about moving Pearson last offseason, but to have someone that costs under 4 million producing 2nd line numbers isn't too shabby in a cap world. Bo was starting to be one of those guys that had rotating wingers, which he managed, but I bet he was glad to have a regular. The silver lining though is that Roussel also had put up good numbers with Bo as well. If we move out Pearson, we have him, Jake can go on LW, Ferland, and even Hoglander would get looks there, so there are still options.

 

Not my top trade option, but could be a viable one given that he has value. But in your suggestion we also trade Roussel, which eliminates another option there. Benn, I find it difficult to find a trade partner given the season he had. And even with all this, I think it'd be very tight to try and fit Toffoli in still.

 

We could buyout Sutter which would save 2.3 million next season (and add a million the next). We could buyout Baertschi, but that only saves about 500k (and adds 800k the next season) as opposed to sending him down, so trading him even at 50% retention is ideal, but don't see many takers.

 

Whatever the case, I think our UFAs are in a good bargaining position if they want to use that in negotiations.

 

I would said Dadonov is a low level 1st liner to top 2nd liner (I believe he was a 2nd liner in Florida), where Toffoli is more of an established 2nd liner that can compliment the 1st line.

Edited July 22, 2020 by theo5789

[Gurn]

Stecher 5'10" 186 lbs   4inches shorter than average, 23 pounds less than average

Hughes 5'10" 170 lbs

 

https://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2010/10/15/1751273/sizing-up-the-nhl-by-height-weight-and-age

 

And how the players stack up

• The average NHLer is 73.33" (6' 1 1/3") tall, weighs 204.42 lbs, and is 27.36 years old.
• The average forward is 72.93" (6' 1") tall, weighs 202.4 lbs, and is 27.1 years old.
• The average defenseman is 73.87" (6' 1 7/8") tall, weighs 209.66 lbs, and is 27.49 years old.
• The average goalie is 73.94" (6' 2") tall, weighs, 198.39 lbs, and is 28.54 years old.

 

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Changing league, size will matter less.