Jim Benning is a good GM

[iceman64]

On 8/22/2020 at 10:54 PM, Goat James said:

This has got to stop. Benning has overseen the Canucks during a six year rebuild where we’ve been the worst team in the league. “His drafting is amazing”: well yeah, when you routinely get top 5 picks it usually turns out ok. Plus he’s missed on two top 10 picks (Virtanen and Joulievi). 
 

We just managed to squeeze into the playoffs, and our cap is a total mess. He’s handed out too large too expensive contracts to bottom line players, and this will severely hinder our future (what happens when both Elias and Quinn need ~$10 million contracts in a year?

 

Sure, he hasn’t been all bad but to even suggest that he’s the best GM in our franchise’s history is laughable. (I remember during the fall of Torts’ season where someone hade a thread saying “Torts is the best coach in Canucks history” just ‘cause we’d had a hot start. This is in the same vein.) 

Simply this, Benning was "ok",  I'am, and always will be on the fence about him but I always take into account the *shi_show" this team was when he took over, the whole team was mentally broken and no team identity whatsoever except broken AT best and MG had us locked in for f'n forever and the Luongo fiasco still haunted us until recently, and overpaid contracts as well because this is, well Canada and most have to be overpaid to come here to play in the second tier market opposed to L.A. NYR. etc as top tiered player destinations. 

 And for the record, every GM in Canucks history tried to buy a cup by way of a depthless roster instead of over the long haul actually building a team for once. 

 And so we're not elite, and we never were anything more than a 1 trick pony, then down the tubes again.. 

Fun story hey?  Not so much, but what's new? At least Benning tried, ok so he was far from perfect and made mistakes but as far as trying to keep people in the stands by keeping the Sedins around and others while trying to add players and then go after picks was as much as anyone could do in the same circumstances because, I don't give a F what some folks overlook that no GM can overwrite contract law. 

 Yeah, ok at best, JB could have been worse or better, but in the first place FA should have went after a more experienced GM in the first place... Was so not impressed with that!

[Odd.]

The dark side of the force is a path way to many abilities… some consider to be.. unnatural.

[iinatcc]

I want to ask first ...

 

 

Seriously take a chill pill. You sound like you are going to explode. Or at least tone down the profanity. 

 

Chil.pill. It's only hockey, this is all for fun. 

 

 

4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Whats your definition of a “a period”?? Right up til Demko’s injury is a period and one helluva period. But how about when he went down?? That was another “period”. when your starter goes down, that is a “period” of time where goaltending is going to struggle that you have to get through, that was another “period”. You’re talking about “a” period??? That “period” turned into nearly 3/4 of an entire season.
 

This season Vancouver could not outscore the problem, which was goaltending. We were the 13th highest scoring team and thats without a Matthews, McDavid, multiple 1st OA picks on our roster, or being in our prime or a dynasty. You go look at the teams ahead of us in scoring, the only impressive ones were SEA, DAL and LAK. Most of those teams who outscored us had far more talent on their roster. Not only that, VGK got to freely pick and assemble an entire team, they didnt have to go through the pains of rebuilding a team, they literally “built” a competitive team FOR FREE. They have the benefit of disposable assets, which Vancouver hasnt really had, until way back when Gillis was at the helm.

 

oh and Vegas’s goaltending this season???? Combined for roughly +30GSAA compared our -50GSAA at all strengths. Seems to me like their goalies were making up for some poor defensive breakdowns.

goaltending is literally the difference between elite and competitive. Give them Spencer Martin, see how well they handle it when his GSAA alone washes out the combination of their 3 goalies who all had +GSAA’s.

 

 

 

There's also that 2 to 3 month in that inaugural season where Vegas was on their 3rd string goalie (Malcolm Subban).

Question is if they couldn't outscore their problems or if they were playing a style of hockey that was so wreckless that it would lead to individual efforts and high scoring but poor defesive play? This was a talking point by people int the media. 

But you are right goaltending is important, Demko was elite last season and it's not like the Canucks made the playoffs either.  

 

 

4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

You realize JB made changes to our scouting department right? He let people go and brought in a new set of eyes. You can say all you want there was something wrong in the organization, but what was it? What did JB do that pushed someone to quit? Also there were some clips of Judd Brackett at the draft table not even knowing who Lind was and JB was educating him on who he was and then drafted him.

 

Gillis was anything but short sighted?? How well did his longterm view pan out for our future? What was his impact on the future? Lol Bo “i can tell you that for free” Horvat. He took the Sedins in their very prime and ran it into a dead halt after their prime ended. He did absolutely almost nothing for the future to keep the wheels turning like Boston has managed to do for so long (which is finally coming to an end) or how Detroit and St Louis have done for so long.

 

Gillis did everything for results now, not tomorrow, it was all about today. How’d his analytical approach help retool? His sleep doctors helped put the hopes of a cup to bed for a very long time after the 2011-12 campaign came up short in the 1st round. 3 years after a cup appearance and back to back Presidents trophies, we were left in absolute despair with no hope in sight. Thats in under 6 f***ing years. He literally lasted the prime of the twins and Kesler and after that his impact was zero… which also by the way, his impact was zero when it comes to Kesler, Luongo, the twins, Burrows, Bieksa, Edler, Hansen, Schneider… shall I continue? Or shall we talk of the blunders that he made, Matthias, Booth, Ballard, Garrisson, etc that were all masked by the players mentioned previous to that. His mistakes were easier to cover up than any mistake JB made, because he had to build from scratch, any mistake is automatically amplified because they hole that was trying to be filled didnt pan out and the fact there was a hole meant there was no one in the system to make up for it.

 

Benning overhauled the scouting department and what did that result? 4 players currently in the main roster. Good drafting usually means you are able draft (and develop) players in the later rounds too (look how the Red Wings built their last cup winning core, or Tampa with Point, Kucherov, and Palat. Benning is a better drafting record than Gillis but what is amounted to? A core that hasn't won anything. Plus Judd Brackett walking out of the organization isn't really a good sign. 

 

Gillis had his problems, and he admitted as much, sure but at least he took the team 1 game from winning the cup. His efforts as a front office manager also made him GM of the Year. He also was smarter in structuring contracts to players w/o overpaying most of them (except maybe Luongo). 

 

As for short sightedness Benning gave away so many draft picks and prospects for short term gain so I don't see how he's less short sighted than Gillis. 

 

But none of these really matter big picture. The Big Picture is results.

 

You can list all the mistakes and errs Gillis did but he was one win from winning the cup and, during his time, a 2nd round playoff exit would be considered a failure. Benning, the bubble aside, has never reached the playoffs with he core he built and there was no upward trajectory from where he started the rebuild to when he left. Even now the team is trying to figure things out. 

 

Drafting, trading, and signing is only secondary in how to gauge a GM. And it's results or the tragectory of the team that matters. 

 

Look at Yzerman he flopped so many times in the 1st round picks but made up for it in other areas and basically built a powerhouse elite team. Rangers didn't exactly do well in the draft either but target key players to retool quickly and be an elite team again. 

 

Funny thing is, in terms, of metrics Benning actually did set himself a 2 year timeline for this team to be ready to contend. And right now I don't think they will reach that target next season.

 

 

4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Its not just OEL? So Garland with his 19g 33a 52pts and tied for 8th in the league with 33 penalties drawn, had zero value approaching the deadline? Or at the end of the season?

His near 5mil cap hit was far more detrimental than say someone like Mikheyev who hardly played half a season? Its okay to look at hindsight right? Thats all any of you do and use it to “benefit” your argument which is so bloody bias its not even funny.

Inefficient cap space last year? Why double down on “almost” making the playoffs?? Why invest in Mikheyev who is relatively unproven and already 28. This management groups moves and their fingerprints on this years roster brought worse results than last years untouched roster. Whats up with that? They “improved” the team yet achieved worse results. Their whole motto was it would be a tragedy if we failed to make playoffs. Whelp, with the help of their roster construction, cap additions, they made god damn certain we wouldnt make playoffs if the 20/20 hindsight is how you wanna play.

JT had value

Bo had value

Garland had value

Boeser was moveable

Myers arguably had value after he and OEL were an ELITE shut down pair last season

nope none of them were moved, they doubled down on JT they kept Bo and kept playoffs as their goal for this season, they kept Garland though Hoglander makes him 100% redunant, held onto Boeser. Didnt entertain the idea of possibly trying to move Myers because of how effective he and OEL were together last year.

 

I think I admitted that the current cap problems is also due to this management's decisions. But OEL and Garland has not panned out for this team. Even if you argue they are good Players that's $12 million in the cap and still no playoff appearances since bringing them. So there was no net positive the team had by acquiring them and adding $12 million and giving up a 1st and 2nd round pick.

 

But again I don't know why are you dragging this current management team down, I don't recall praising Rutherford and Allvin either. 

 

4 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

 

Benning hired them and seeked advice and relied on HIS RESOURCES to make a SMART move and didnt RUSH a SELFISH ill-advised move. Thats ACTUALLY being proactive and doing the best to mitigate risk. Did OEL not prove his value last year???? Did he not function as one of the top shutdown pairs in the league last year, he and Myers?? This season you point a finger at him, though his numbers if you really dig deep, are not as bad as you think. Goaltending was the trainwreck that derailed this season and there is no possible way of denying it when 60ish games we played had an attrocious goaltending record.

Wait you said the Sedins pressured ( or heavily influenced) Benning are you saying those two are the only resources Benning had? I would think making decision likes this requires the advice of more experienced people in the hockey management field. 

 

Let's use real life as an example, if you had 25 or so years in your profession would you ask people w/o any prior experience making a critical decision. Because this is what Benning did if he indeed was pushed by the Sedins.  

 

There was an article in the Athletic that values OEL's and Myers' current contract value with heir actual value (actual performance). I think Myers actual cap value is 2 million. I forgot OEL's. anyways 13 Million is probably to steep for a non-elite shutdown pairing especially when the average is probably much lower than that. 

[AnthonyG]

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

I want to ask first ...

 

Seriously take a chill pill. You sound like you are going to explode. Or at least tone down the profanity. 

 

Chil.pill. It's only hockey, this is all for fun. 

 

let me ask you this… do you honestly believe Benning was here for results? 
 

 

 

Bennings only actual trade that had any “negative” impact was the OEL+Garland deal. Even then, Garlands value after last season sky rocketed, this current management group failed to capitalize on it. OEL tied his career high DPS last season, he and Myers were one of the TOP SHUT DOWN PAIRS in the league last season. What happened this season?? Health was an issue and Coaching staff split them up to average out the 3 pairs. You complain about OEL yet in his first season with us he was one of our best all around, especially on the shutdown side,  D players. Alllllll the stats point to him and Myers being an elite pair. Does that sound like a negative impact???

 

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

But you are right goaltending is important, Demko was elite last season and it's not like the Canucks made the playoffs either.  

Demko had a yet another slow start last season, just as he did this season. Not only that, Elias Pettersson was atrocious for the first 44 games of the season. He had I believe 24 pointless games in those first 44 games. Once Demko was dialled in, it helped keep us in close games while Petey was struggling, once he got going the team was rolling and was the hottest team in the league for nearly half a season. We BARELY missed and that was with a slow start to the season which took 18-20 games to get going for Demko and 44 for Pettersson.

3 wins is all we needed to qualify for playoffs after an 8-15-2 start, imagine if Pettersson was playing up to par, not even elite or anything like that, just slightly above average. Or if Demko was a little more sharp, playoffs would have been a sure thing.

You go look at almost every top team in the league, it all stems around consistent goaltending and goalies who are STEALING games, making huge saves and have a high GSAA, all the sh*t teams have inconsistent goaltending and really poor GSAA.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=all&score=all&stdoi=g&rate=n&team=ALL&pos=S&loc=B&toi=0&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

 

Just look at how much of a difference it is between playoff teams and non playoff teams. 
so because Demko played at an elite level the team was sh*t? 
How about Ullmark and Swayman?? They combined for 63GSAA!!!!! Does that mean Boston was carried solely by goaltending and they were actually a sh*t team???? The only reason they made playoffs is ONLY because of goaltending? No its a team game and when star players play to their abilities they give the team a chance to win and when all your star players play to their abilities, it makes for something magic like Boston this season. You NEED goaltending above all, to succeed in this league and if your goalie is not playing up to or above, your chances of success are small, because when the opposition gets there chances…. Which they do every game…. It makes it really hard to win if your goalie isnt pulling his weight and their goalie is.

This team was 100% capable of playoffs the last THREE seasons. 2020-21 a ruthless scheduling with a 1 month pause on the season due to a viral outbreak really hurt our ability to win games, as much as I hate Babcock, even if he were the coach I wouldnt even blame him or put that season down on his resume. 
The 2021-22 season Demko wasnt sharp to start, Pettersson was even worse and for even longer and we merely missed. 3 bloody wins is all we needed.
This season there was no hope in hell after Demko’s poor start and then him going down, that we would ever recover with the way Delia and Martin played between the pipes.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

Benning overhauled the scouting department and what did that result? 4 players currently in the main roster. Good drafting usually means you are able draft (and develop) players in the later rounds too (look how the Red Wings built their last cup winning core, or Tampa with Point, Kucherov, and Palat. Benning is a better drafting record than Gillis but what is amounted to? A core that hasn't won anything. Plus Judd Brackett walking out of the organization isn't really a good sign. 

Highlighted… this is the most unrealistic and bias statement to make. 
That would be like me chirping Guenther for getting sent back to the dub and not even being able to stay on the god damn Arizona Coyotes roster. You think MAYBE he and our core need more time to make an impact? You think MAYBE development is impactful in ones path to success? Or are all 1st round picks supposed to be all-stars, every presidents trophy winner should automatically win the cup every year…. Like seriously?????? This core was formed 6 years ago?? And you’re expecting a cup??????? You’re expecting a contender??? Outside of Demko and Boeser, Pettersson was the first real ground breaking piece for this core, it took Demko some time to develop, but ultimately Pettersson is the face of this franchise and he and Hughes were drafted within the last 6 drafts.

 

Benning had to start sooooooo far behind the rest of league in terms of rebuilding and trying to load up not only the team with fresh blood, he also had to try and build the bloody pipeline too AND build a contender???? In under 8 years???? With no valuable trade chips??

Do you honestly believe Benning was here to try and win a cup? 
You want to talk about Detroit and their 7th consecutive early tee time? Benning at least had 2 playoff appearances while trying to rebuild from below ground zero and likely would have had 3 more playoff appearances if it wasnt for a flat cap, COVID break out, cross border freeze, cap recapture, 2 expansion drafts and star players not performing. But that last part, is understandable, its completely understandable to see young star players struggle and LEARN from experience and BUILD themselves into a true star player, its part of the growing pains of working with such a young inexperienced roster, which is why most of JBs signings or acquisitions were guys of cup winning experience or consistent careers to help shelter development at the NHL level. You all misunderstand the whole point of guys like Beagle, Roussel, Holtby etc. They were targeted to assist in development at the NHL level, they were never intended for a cup winning recipe, we havent even hit Petey and Hughes prime, so why try to rush a cup when they were not ready?

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

Gillis had his problems, and he admitted as much, sure but at least he took the team 1 game from winning the cup. His efforts as a front office manager also made him GM of the Year. He also was smarter in structuring contracts to players w/o overpaying most of them (except maybe Luongo). 

His efforts made him GM of the year when he had disposable assets to move out and freely throw away picks and prospects in order to go all in. Not hard and not risky at all when you already were gifted a cup contending roster. Lets be real here, what was his actual impact on that roster and the future? Almost zero. 
 

JB did a fantastic job on pretty much every RFA and had to work around that lovely cap recapture penalty along with a flat cap AND trying to get guys to take paycuts to play on a rebuilding team… come on man. How hard is it to say “yea I’ll take a pay cut to play on your clear cup contending roster!”

 

If Mike Gillis was so great, how come he NEVER was offered another opportunity elsewhere? Its because he was simply a sh*t GM. Outside of his sleep doctors and crap, he did nothing to prove his worth or truly show his IQ. Lawrence Gillman was his numbers guy was he not?

 

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

As for short sightedness Benning gave away so many draft picks and prospects for short term gain so I don't see how he's less short sighted than Gillis. 

Gave away so many picks?? Can you provide the actual net difference? Because I can assure you it really isnt as dramatic as you make it out to be. How many prospects did he move out? How many did he lose via waivers or the expansion drafts? Did Gillis face any of those obstacles? Nope.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

But none of these really matter big picture. The Big Picture is results.

 

See heres the difference between me and almost all the rest of you. You look at the big picture, I look at the whole picture which is far more telling than what you base your judgement and opinions on. Your big picture does not go over the details, the whole picture does. 
Did we need to rebuild? Yes

can you rebuild in under 5 years? No

was there anything in our system coming up and were there any valuable trade chips to accelerate our desperately needed rebuild? No

did we build a new core and find the major pieces through drafting? Yes

Did we make playoffs? Yes. And just to make it clear because I’m sure you will take the angle of every other person I’ve debated this with, we EARNED a playoff spot by winning a series. Dont come at me with that “well we werent in the playoff picture and we were struggling crap. When tasked with advancing to the playoffs in a best of series, we successfully won AND rolled the defending champs. Sure we lost to VGK, we took it to 7 and saw the brightness of our future ahead. The youth that will form their careers here and will carry us to the promised land once they have become a true professional.

the years we didnt, what happened? COVID one year and growing pains 2 years after that. Nonetheless we were close in 2 of those 3 seasons.

Results may speak, but ultimately how you got those results tell you a lot more. You are all so panicked and pissed off when our core is so god damn young. Think back to when the WCE was coming to an end and the transition to the Sedin era felt seamless. The Sedins had time to prepare and were able to be sheltered and grow into their stardom. Our current core had no other choice but to be thrown into it because we had no one else. Its the reason for struggle. The twins struggled immensely, but the WCE took care of business until they were ready. 
What Benning accomplished is what Burke did, but without the help of the WCE to make for a smooth transition into the new era of Canucks.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

You can list all the mistakes and errs Gillis did but he was one win from winning the cup and, during his time, a 2nd round playoff exit would be considered a failure. Benning, the bubble aside, has never reached the playoffs with he core he built and there was no upward trajectory from where he started the rebuild to when he left. Even now the team is trying to figure things out. 

See heres the part of plain ignorance and deflection that you “fans” are riddled with.

You dismiss ALLLLLL the mistakes Gillis made because “he almost won” yet it had a devastating impact on the future. Thats completely ignorant. Now JB had to deal with the disaster and try to restart and build a contender in an unrealistic timeline by this fan base. You’ve never experienced a rebuild, you dont understand the struggle, the trials and tribulations, how bloody hard it is to rebuild a team from absolute scratch. Just look at how many doormats of the league are still doormats and how many it took 10+ years to break free from the basement. JB never had assets to speed up a rebuild or generational talent to draft. Take a sip of reality and maybe come down from your unrealistic expectations and views.

 

Benning did make playoffs twice with not his drafted core, but mostly guys he added through free agency and trade, he had Brian Burkes draft work to help. Almost None of it was Gillis’s guys. Took “Gillis’s” 23rd overall team and built an 8th place team in one off season using free agency and the Kesler trade.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

Drafting, trading, and signing is only secondary in how to gauge a GM. And it's results or the tragectory of the team that matters. 

 

This team is trending upwards. Scoring is the hardest thing to teach/do. This team can score.

stop the bloody puck, kill a god damn penalty and its a pretty good lookin season. Go look at how close a lot of our games were this season against PLAYOFF teams. I think there were less than 15 games that we lost by 2 or more goals. And Thats with horrendous goaltending. The worst goaltending in the league. And I think we won 17 games by 1 or more goals against top teams. Dont quote me, I did look into it awhile back, but the numbers would definitely shock you.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

Look at Yzerman he flopped so many times in the 1st round picks but made up for it in other areas and basically built a powerhouse elite team. Rangers didn't exactly do well in the draft either but target key players to retool quickly and be an elite team again. 

Okay so lets first of all clear one thing up. Comparing non-tax teams to high tax teams is unfair.

not a single player over 10 mil on TBL. 
Kuch, Stam, Vas, Point… easily 10+ each in any Canadian market or in any normal tax state. Must be nice to save a minimum of 3mil in cap space if they were to be paid just 10 mil each. Or maybe 6-8mil if they were paid their actual value  around the league. They have major cap savings on EVERY single guy on that team because of being in a non-tax state. Without that cap savings, say goodbye to one of them and probably another important piece.

The league needs to address the imbalance in cap situations across the league. All markets should be pro-rated and based off the highest tax market and all working with different cap floors/ceilings. Contracts should, if it is somehow possible, be done by % and not $ so that it is entirely transferrable to any market without any difference in value.

Just for example to make it really simple to explain

 

say the highest tax area is 20%
your cap is 100mil

your star player signs a deal for 10% thats 10mil, minus your 20% taxes it comes to 8mil

 

now you get traded to TBL a no tax state

their cap is 80mil due to no/low taxes

your 10% of 100mil after taxes is still 10% of 80mil in a non-tax state. You can transfer % anywhere and make it work, you cannot transfer $.

 

by the way Yzerman also spent 8 years in TBL and he was handed Stamkos, Killorn and Hedman… pretty nice start to his GM job in rebuilding that team. Probably woulda been canned if he started in ‘08 and had failed as many times as TBL did from 2008-2014. Imagine if he didnt have Hedman and Stamkos to start out with? How good would they have been without those guys? 
 

Also it must be nice to

1) be a hotbed for UFA destinations
2) have valuable trade chips to accelerate any sort of retool needed.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

Funny thing is, in terms, of metrics Benning actually did set himself a 2 year timeline for this team to be ready to contend. And right now I don't think they will reach that target next season.

 

This team needs goaltending to step up and pull their weight, our PK not only relies on a system and personnel, but goaltending is the utmost important part of the PK. Which is why our PK took such a hit. With just that, this team can certainly earn a divisional playoff spot and stand a chance at winning at least one round.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

I think I admitted that the current cap problems is also due to this management's decisions. But OEL and Garland has not panned out for this team. Even if you argue they are good Players that's $12 million in the cap and still no playoff appearances since bringing them. So there was no net positive the team had by acquiring them and adding $12 million and giving up a 1st and 2nd round pick.

 

But again I don't know why are you dragging this current management team down, I don't recall praising Rutherford and Allvin either. 

You say OEL and Garland didnt pan out, based off what? 1 down season?

you ignore OEL having a career year defensively and when paired with everyone elses favourite whipping boy Myers, they were E 1337
Garland also had a career year in his first season with us.

seems like it worked out pretty good if you can look past our slow start that cost us our season. 3 more wins and I’d bet $199939374646373 you’d have a completely different opinion.

 

Theres absolutely no guarantee that 9th overall even pans out to anything. You guys would have given up all hope if he was sent down to the WHL if he was here with us, woulda had bust labeled allllll over him. All because he just isnt/quite ready.

 

You dont understand why I’m ragging on this current management group? Because you all blame the previous management group and are now ignoring what this CURRENT group has botched.

The OEL trade pieces could have most definitely been recouped and more had they

1) not doubled down on JT Miller and moved him

2) capitalized on Garlands value after the season he had

3) not doubled down on Boeser and cut bait and got a late 1st or 2nd for him.

4) not signed a 28 year old PKer for 5 mil

 

They made their own bed to sleep in, they had assets, they instead doubled down on “almost” making the playoffs, just like you are so stuck on Gillis “almost” winning a cup, though his work was minuscule on that roster.

 

I still support this management groups moves and what they did, I fully understand WHY it just didnt work out and it wasnt because of roster construction, it was performance based between the pipes. Everyone else did a fairly good job of contributing and trying to help us win. Our goalies absolutely did not and by the time Demko did, it was a lost cause.

 

On 6/8/2023 at 3:25 PM, iinatcc said:

1) Let's use real life as an example, if you had 25 or so years in your profession would you ask people w/o any prior experience making a critical decision. Because this is what Benning did if he indeed was pushed by the Sedins.  

 

2) There was an article in the Athletic that values OEL's and Myers' current contract value with heir actual value (actual performance). I think Myers actual cap value is 2 million. I forgot OEL's. anyways 13 Million is probably to steep for a non-elite shutdown pairing especially when the average is probably much lower than that. 

I’ll reply to this last quote in 2 parts

1) its funny you mention real life. Let me ask you this, in real life, did Daniel and Henrik Sedin play SEVERAL seasons against OEL? Does their on ice experience count for absolutely nothing? Does playing the game as one of the best duo’s in the game with better chemistry than any other pair of forwards, have zero to offer when making a recommendation and speakin solely of their personal experience playing with AND against OEL and his impact on the ice vs them?

Who do you think would provide the best insight on a potential acquisition, the guys crunching numbers and only looking at numbers, or the guys who had the actual first hand experience playing the game against that player? I’d put my money on the HHOFers who had the experience. Experience has everything to do with critical decisions. He went for absolute reassurance. 
 

2) Why dont you go look up some articles on OEL and Myers effectiveness in 2021-22. They were far better than these numbers you pull from this season where they were hardly paired together. Under 450 mins TOI at 5v5 together. Over 900 mins TOI last season. 

 

[iinatcc]

50 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

let me ask you this… do you honestly believe Benning was here for results? 
 

 

 

Bennings only actual trade that had any “negative” impact was the OEL+Garland deal. Even then, Garlands value after last season sky rocketed, this current management group failed to capitalize on it. OEL tied his career high DPS last season, he and Myers were one of the TOP SHUT DOWN PAIRS in the league last season. What happened this season?? Health was an issue and Coaching staff split them up to average out the 3 pairs. You complain about OEL yet in his first season with us he was one of our best all around, especially on the shutdown side,  D players. Alllllll the stats point to him and Myers being an elite pair. Does that sound like a negative impact???

 

 

Demko had a yet another slow start last season, just as he did this season. Not only that, Elias Pettersson was atrocious for the first 44 games of the season. He had I believe 24 pointless games in those first 44 games. Once Demko was dialled in, it helped keep us in close games while Petey was struggling, once he got going the team was rolling and was the hottest team in the league for nearly half a season. We BARELY missed and that was with a slow start to the season which took 18-20 games to get going for Demko and 44 for Pettersson.

3 wins is all we needed to qualify for playoffs after an 8-15-2 start, imagine if Pettersson was playing up to par, not even elite or anything like that, just slightly above average. Or if Demko was a little more sharp, playoffs would have been a sure thing.

You go look at almost every top team in the league, it all stems around consistent goaltending and goalies who are STEALING games, making huge saves and have a high GSAA, all the sh*t teams have inconsistent goaltending and really poor GSAA.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerteams.php?fromseason=20222023&thruseason=20222023&stype=2&sit=all&score=all&stdoi=g&rate=n&team=ALL&pos=S&loc=B&toi=0&gpfilt=none&fd=&td=&tgp=410&lines=single&draftteam=ALL

 

Just look at how much of a difference it is between playoff teams and non playoff teams. 
so because Demko played at an elite level the team was sh*t? 
How about Ullmark and Swayman?? They combined for 63GSAA!!!!! Does that mean Boston was carried solely by goaltending and they were actually a sh*t team???? The only reason they made playoffs is ONLY because of goaltending? No its a team game and when star players play to their abilities they give the team a chance to win and when all your star players play to their abilities, it makes for something magic like Boston this season. You NEED goaltending above all, to succeed in this league and if your goalie is not playing up to or above, your chances of success are small, because when the opposition gets there chances…. Which they do every game…. It makes it really hard to win if your goalie isnt pulling his weight and their goalie is.

This team was 100% capable of playoffs the last THREE seasons. 2020-21 a ruthless scheduling with a 1 month pause on the season due to a viral outbreak really hurt our ability to win games, as much as I hate Babcock, even if he were the coach I wouldnt even blame him or put that season down on his resume. 
The 2021-22 season Demko wasnt sharp to start, Pettersson was even worse and for even longer and we merely missed. 3 bloody wins is all we needed.
This season there was no hope in hell after Demko’s poor start and then him going down, that we would ever recover with the way Delia and Martin played between the pipes.

 

Highlighted… this is the most unrealistic and bias statement to make. 
That would be like me chirping Guenther for getting sent back to the dub and not even being able to stay on the god damn Arizona Coyotes roster. You think MAYBE he and our core need more time to make an impact? You think MAYBE development is impactful in ones path to success? Or are all 1st round picks supposed to be all-stars, every presidents trophy winner should automatically win the cup every year…. Like seriously?????? This core was formed 6 years ago?? And you’re expecting a cup??????? You’re expecting a contender??? Outside of Demko and Boeser, Pettersson was the first real ground breaking piece for this core, it took Demko some time to develop, but ultimately Pettersson is the face of this franchise and he and Hughes were drafted within the last 6 drafts.

 

Benning had to start sooooooo far behind the rest of league in terms of rebuilding and trying to load up not only the team with fresh blood, he also had to try and build the bloody pipeline too AND build a contender???? In under 8 years???? With no valuable trade chips??

Do you honestly believe Benning was here to try and win a cup? 
You want to talk about Detroit and their 7th consecutive early tee time? Benning at least had 2 playoff appearances while trying to rebuild from below ground zero and likely would have had 3 more playoff appearances if it wasnt for a flat cap, COVID break out, cross border freeze, cap recapture, 2 expansion drafts and star players not performing. But that last part, is understandable, its completely understandable to see young star players struggle and LEARN from experience and BUILD themselves into a true star player, its part of the growing pains of working with such a young inexperienced roster, which is why most of JBs signings or acquisitions were guys of cup winning experience or consistent careers to help shelter development at the NHL level. You all misunderstand the whole point of guys like Beagle, Roussel, Holtby etc. They were targeted to assist in development at the NHL level, they were never intended for a cup winning recipe, we havent even hit Petey and Hughes prime, so why try to rush a cup when they were not ready?

 

His efforts made him GM of the year when he had disposable assets to move out and freely throw away picks and prospects in order to go all in. Not hard and not risky at all when you already were gifted a cup contending roster. Lets be real here, what was his actual impact on that roster and the future? Almost zero. 
 

JB did a fantastic job on pretty much every RFA and had to work around that lovely cap recapture penalty along with a flat cap AND trying to get guys to take paycuts to play on a rebuilding team… come on man. How hard is it to say “yea I’ll take a pay cut to play on your clear cup contending roster!”

 

If Mike Gillis was so great, how come he NEVER was offered another opportunity elsewhere? Its because he was simply a sh*t GM. Outside of his sleep doctors and crap, he did nothing to prove his worth or truly show his IQ. Lawrence Gillman was his numbers guy was he not?

 

 

Gave away so many picks?? Can you provide the actual net difference? Because I can assure you it really isnt as dramatic as you make it out to be. How many prospects did he move out? How many did he lose via waivers or the expansion drafts? Did Gillis face any of those obstacles? Nope.

 

See heres the difference between me and almost all the rest of you. You look at the big picture, I look at the whole picture which is far more telling than what you base your judgement and opinions on. Your big picture does not go over the details, the whole picture does. 
Did we need to rebuild? Yes

can you rebuild in under 5 years? No

was there anything in our system coming up and were there any valuable trade chips to accelerate our desperately needed rebuild? No

did we build a new core and find the major pieces through drafting? Yes

Did we make playoffs? Yes. And just to make it clear because I’m sure you will take the angle of every other person I’ve debated this with, we EARNED a playoff spot by winning a series. Dont come at me with that “well we werent in the playoff picture and we were struggling crap. When tasked with advancing to the playoffs in a best of series, we successfully won AND rolled the defending champs. Sure we lost to VGK, we took it to 7 and saw the brightness of our future ahead. The youth that will form their careers here and will carry us to the promised land once they have become a true professional.

the years we didnt, what happened? COVID one year and growing pains 2 years after that. Nonetheless we were close in 2 of those 3 seasons.

Results may speak, but ultimately how you got those results tell you a lot more. You are all so panicked and pissed off when our core is so god damn young. Think back to when the WCE was coming to an end and the transition to the Sedin era felt seamless. The Sedins had time to prepare and were able to be sheltered and grow into their stardom. Our current core had no other choice but to be thrown into it because we had no one else. Its the reason for struggle. The twins struggled immensely, but the WCE took care of business until they were ready. 
What Benning accomplished is what Burke did, but without the help of the WCE to make for a smooth transition into the new era of Canucks.

 

See heres the part of plain ignorance and deflection that you “fans” are riddled with.

You dismiss ALLLLLL the mistakes Gillis made because “he almost won” yet it had a devastating impact on the future. Thats completely ignorant. Now JB had to deal with the disaster and try to restart and build a contender in an unrealistic timeline by this fan base. You’ve never experienced a rebuild, you dont understand the struggle, the trials and tribulations, how bloody hard it is to rebuild a team from absolute scratch. Just look at how many doormats of the league are still doormats and how many it took 10+ years to break free from the basement. JB never had assets to speed up a rebuild or generational talent to draft. Take a sip of reality and maybe come down from your unrealistic expectations and views.

 

Benning did make playoffs twice with not his drafted core, but mostly guys he added through free agency and trade, he had Brian Burkes draft work to help. Almost None of it was Gillis’s guys. Took “Gillis’s” 23rd overall team and built an 8th place team in one off season using free agency and the Kesler trade.

 

 

This team is trending upwards. Scoring is the hardest thing to teach/do. This team can score.

stop the bloody puck, kill a god damn penalty and its a pretty good lookin season. Go look at how close a lot of our games were this season against PLAYOFF teams. I think there were less than 15 games that we lost by 2 or more goals. And Thats with horrendous goaltending. The worst goaltending in the league. And I think we won 17 games by 1 or more goals against top teams. Dont quote me, I did look into it awhile back, but the numbers would definitely shock you.

 

Okay so lets first of all clear one thing up. Comparing non-tax teams to high tax teams is unfair.

not a single player over 10 mil on TBL. 
Kuch, Stam, Vas, Point… easily 10+ each in any Canadian market or in any normal tax state. Must be nice to save a minimum of 3mil in cap space if they were to be paid just 10 mil each. Or maybe 6-8mil if they were paid their actual value  around the league. They have major cap savings on EVERY single guy on that team because of being in a non-tax state. Without that cap savings, say goodbye to one of them and probably another important piece.

The league needs to address the imbalance in cap situations across the league. All markets should be pro-rated and based off the highest tax market and all working with different cap floors/ceilings. Contracts should, if it is somehow possible, be done by % and not $ so that it is entirely transferrable to any market without any difference in value.

Just for example to make it really simple to explain

 

say the highest tax area is 20%
your cap is 100mil

your star player signs a deal for 10% thats 10mil, minus your 20% taxes it comes to 8mil

 

now you get traded to TBL a no tax state

their cap is 80mil due to no/low taxes

your 10% of 100mil after taxes is still 10% of 80mil in a non-tax state. You can transfer % anywhere and make it work, you cannot transfer $.

 

by the way Yzerman also spent 8 years in TBL and he was handed Stamkos, Killorn and Hedman… pretty nice start to his GM job in rebuilding that team. Probably woulda been canned if he started in ‘08 and had failed as many times as TBL did from 2008-2014. Imagine if he didnt have Hedman and Stamkos to start out with? How good would they have been without those guys? 
 

Also it must be nice to

1) be a hotbed for UFA destinations
2) have valuable trade chips to accelerate any sort of retool needed.

 

 

This team needs goaltending to step up and pull their weight, our PK not only relies on a system and personnel, but goaltending is the utmost important part of the PK. Which is why our PK took such a hit. With just that, this team can certainly earn a divisional playoff spot and stand a chance at winning at least one round.

 

You say OEL and Garland didnt pan out, based off what? 1 down season?

you ignore OEL having a career year defensively and when paired with everyone elses favourite whipping boy Myers, they were E 1337
Garland also had a career year in his first season with us.

seems like it worked out pretty good if you can look past our slow start that cost us our season. 3 more wins and I’d bet $199939374646373 you’d have a completely different opinion.

 

Theres absolutely no guarantee that 9th overall even pans out to anything. You guys would have given up all hope if he was sent down to the WHL if he was here with us, woulda had bust labeled allllll over him. All because he just isnt/quite ready.

 

You dont understand why I’m ragging on this current management group? Because you all blame the previous management group and are now ignoring what this CURRENT group has botched.

The OEL trade pieces could have most definitely been recouped and more had they

1) not doubled down on JT Miller and moved him

2) capitalized on Garlands value after the season he had

3) not doubled down on Boeser and cut bait and got a late 1st or 2nd for him.

4) not signed a 28 year old PKer for 5 mil

 

They made their own bed to sleep in, they had assets, they instead doubled down on “almost” making the playoffs, just like you are so stuck on Gillis “almost” winning a cup, though his work was minuscule on that roster.

 

I still support this management groups moves and what they did, I fully understand WHY it just didnt work out and it wasnt because of roster construction, it was performance based between the pipes. Everyone else did a fairly good job of contributing and trying to help us win. Our goalies absolutely did not and by the time Demko did, it was a lost cause.

 

I’ll reply to this last quote in 2 parts

1) its funny you mention real life. Let me ask you this, in real life, did Daniel and Henrik Sedin play SEVERAL seasons against OEL? Does their on ice experience count for absolutely nothing? Does playing the game as one of the best duo’s in the game with better chemistry than any other pair of forwards, have zero to offer when making a recommendation and speakin solely of their personal experience playing with AND against OEL and his impact on the ice vs them?

Who do you think would provide the best insight on a potential acquisition, the guys crunching numbers and only looking at numbers, or the guys who had the actual first hand experience playing the game against that player? I’d put my money on the HHOFers who had the experience. Experience has everything to do with critical decisions. He went for absolute reassurance. 
 

2) Why dont you go look up some articles on OEL and Myers effectiveness in 2021-22. They were far better than these numbers you pull from this season where they were hardly paired together. Under 450 mins TOI at 5v5 together. Over 900 mins TOI last season. 

 

I am done

 

I will just reply on the last part. There's a difference between having hockey playing experience and having hockey management experience. Sedins probably weren't looking things in a analytical perspective (analytics, contract, the salary cap etc.) they saw a good player. This was the problem with Benning, I can awknowledge that he was a hockey guy the black and blue Don Cherry type hockey that people romanticize about. Problem is on ice experience the eye test doesn't always paint an accurate picture.There is no correlation with on ice experience with being a successful manager if so Wayne Gretzky wouldn't have drafted Kyle Turris. And for every HOFer turned hockey executive like Yzerman there's also Ken Holland ( a person who didn't have much experience playing in the NHL). 

 

Point is I think you are dismissing the difficulty curve in transitioning from being a NHL player to managing an NHL team. It's a whole different thing and a position the Sedins, at the time, had very little knowledge of and were just getting their feet wet.

 

This is why I think that baseball movie starring Clint Eastwood (Trouble with the Curve) is one of the dumbest sports movies I've ever seen. You need real management people to run an organization. 

 

I think that is the mistake we made in the Benning regime, we all thought a "hockey guy" is what the Canucks need. Probably PTSD from Gillis but Gillis did a good job in actual organizational maintenance until he jumped the shark himself. 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by iinatcc

[NewbieCanuckFan]

42 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

I am done

 

I will just reply on the last part. There's a difference between having hockey playing experience and having hockey management experience. Sedins probably weren't looking things in a analytical perspective (analytics, contract, the salary cap etc.) they saw a good player. This was the problem with Benning, I can awknowledge that he was a hockey guy the black and blue Don Cherry type hockey that people romanticize about. Problem is on ice experience the eye test doesn't always paint an accurate picture.There is no correlation with on ice experience with being a successful manager if so Wayne Gretzky wouldn't have drafted Kyle Turris. And for every HOFer turned hockey executive like Yzerman there's also Ken Holland ( a person who didn't have much experience playing in the NHL). 

 

Point is I think you are dismissing the difficulty curve in transitioning from being a NHL player to managing an NHL team. It's a whole different thing and a position the Sedins, at the time, had very little knowledge of and were just getting their feet wet.

 

This is why I think that baseball movie starring Clint Eastwood (Trouble with the Curve) is one of the dumbest sports movies I've ever seen. You need real management people to run an organization. 

 

I think that is the mistake we made in the Benning regime, we all thought a "hockey guy" is what the Canucks need. Probably PTSD from Gillis but Gillis did a good job in actual organizational maintenance until he jumped the shark himself. 

 

Don't disparage the great John Weisbrod.

[iinatcc]

7 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Don't disparage the great John Weisbrod.

Everytime someone mentions his name a kitten dies

 

That's why I just post this 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by iinatcc

[NewbieCanuckFan]

11 minutes ago, iinatcc said:

Everything time someone mentions his name a kitten dies

 

That's why I just post this 

 

 

I know Brian Burke was just joking around but I seem to recall him make a snarky comment about Weisbrod along the lines of "I don't even know what he does around here" (when Weisbrod was employed by the Flames).  Have to love Brian Burke.  Agree or disgree with him, he doesn't hold back.

[canucksnihilist]

On 6/8/2023 at 12:30 PM, Timråfan said:

He had his spin doctors go over every post here.

The negative posters were attacked and the Benning fan posters said that the negative ones belongs to the HF board. 

Claiming negative fans belonged on the HF board were pretty effective.

 

All GMs are equal.  However some GMs are more equal than others!

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

I know drafting and scouting and UFA signings all had their strengths and weaknesses, but look at some of his trades on Cap Friendly as a bit of an idea. He came in and his first trades were back in 2014.

 

Garrison for a 2nd - pretty decent trade but we didn't keep the pick in the end, ended up being Vey.

Kesler for Sbisa, a 1st (McCann) and Bonino and a 3rd - great trade but was sort of forced into it, got a pretty decent haul back. A bit similar to the Bo trade but Kesler was past his prime.

Dorsett for a 3rd - was a huge player for us while here.

Linden Vey for the 2nd round pick we got for Garrison, bad deal.

Clendening for Forsling. Yikes. At the time I remember thinking we were basically trading a young skinny puck mover for a fairly solid physical defenceman but boy did that not pan out well at all. Maybe you could argue the league trended towards favouring Forsling but still, bad trade.

Baertschi for a 2nd round pick. Seemed good at the time but Calgary drafted Rasmus Andersson with that pick so obviously a big loss on our behalf.

Eddie Lack for a 3rd (Brisebois) and later pick, minor victory because Lack rarely played after that.

Bieksa for a 2nd round pick - seemed good, getting rid of an older player well past his prime, but we ended up moving that pick anyway.

Prust for Kassian - pretty lateral trade at the time.

Bonino + Clendening + 2nd for Sutter. Again a pretty lateral trade, this did make us a lot better at the time, Sutter was very serviceable for us.

McCann + 2nd + 4th for Gudbranson. Yikes. I would argue that back then Gudbranson was just the player we needed (and arguably we could really use a prime Guddy now)

Burrows for Dahlen. Forced again but we get some value back for a player who deserved out.

Hansen for Goldobin + 4th. Bad player coming back again, maybe this is due to scouting?

Vanek for Motte and Jokinen. Pretty lateral move for older guys but you can't say acquiring Motte was a bad deal, Vanek's stats really got padded here.

Del Zotto for Luke Schenn. Steal.

Gudbranson for Pearson. Great trade again at the time, sure we shouldn't have acquired him but Pearson was very solid for us for a while.

Dahlen for Karlsson. Karlsson looks very good right now so maybe this trade wasn't the worst in the world?

JT Miller acquired for a 1st (Mukhamadullin) + 3rd + Mazanec. One of the best trades of the franchise. Obviously we don't know how good Mukh is going to be (big young Russian defender) but this trade has kept us out of the conference basement (for better or for worse) and kept us relatively relevant. You have to commend the scouting on this one, Miller came in as what, a 2nd or 3rd liner and ends up being our 99pt top line center.

2nd + 4th + change for Toffoli. Those picks ended up being pretty average guys anyway but still that was a big haul for a guy who played like 20 games as a rental with us and then we don't re-sign him. That's a different story, but the value for the trade was pretty average.

Schmidt for a 3rd. Absolute steal yet again, I know Schmidt didn't like it here but he was a solid defenceman for Vegas, it just didn't pan out. Ironically we get the 3rd back and draft Elias Pettersson.

Dickinson for a 3rd round pick. At the time, looks like a good deal but boy does this trade haunt us.

The big one. OEL + Garland for 1st (Guenther) + 2nd (Haight) + Roussel, Beagle, Eriksson. Desperation trade when a GM can see the light at the end of his tunnel. At the time I sort of understood it, OEL and Garland were two top players, but they just haven't been the same. Can't forget that while it seemed like a cap dump, we were taking on 12M in cap space as well. Bad deal all around, we were something like just a year or two off having all those plugs off our roster for good.

Juolevi for Lammikko. This was a great deal at the time, obviously Juolevi was trash for us and never panned out but we somehow get one of the best 4Cs we've had in ages. Mistake IMO to not re-sign him but Aman and Joshua made him expendable. 

 

So on the whole looking back, some absolute steals by JB (the Miller deal in particular), a lot of quite lateral trades which were sort of win-wins for both teams but honestly didn't have much of an impact, and then the big nasty OEL trade. I'd rate him pretty average on the whole. One thing though is that all those trades addressed the team needs in an instant. When we needed a defenceman, we got Gudbranson. When we needed a checking center we got Sutter. 

[Kevin Biestra]

9 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

I know drafting and scouting and UFA signings all had their strengths and weaknesses, but look at some of his trades on Cap Friendly as a bit of an idea. He came in and his first trades were back in 2014.

 

Garrison for a 2nd - pretty decent trade but we didn't keep the pick in the end, ended up being Vey.

Kesler for Sbisa, a 1st (McCann) and Bonino and a 3rd - great trade but was sort of forced into it, got a pretty decent haul back. A bit similar to the Bo trade but Kesler was past his prime.

Dorsett for a 3rd - was a huge player for us while here.

Linden Vey for the 2nd round pick we got for Garrison, bad deal.

Clendening for Forsling. Yikes. At the time I remember thinking we were basically trading a young skinny puck mover for a fairly solid physical defenceman but boy did that not pan out well at all. Maybe you could argue the league trended towards favouring Forsling but still, bad trade.

Baertschi for a 2nd round pick. Seemed good at the time but Calgary drafted Rasmus Andersson with that pick so obviously a big loss on our behalf.

Eddie Lack for a 3rd (Brisebois) and later pick, minor victory because Lack rarely played after that.

Bieksa for a 2nd round pick - seemed good, getting rid of an older player well past his prime, but we ended up moving that pick anyway.

Prust for Kassian - pretty lateral trade at the time.

Bonino + Clendening + 2nd for Sutter. Again a pretty lateral trade, this did make us a lot better at the time, Sutter was very serviceable for us.

McCann + 2nd + 4th for Gudbranson. Yikes. I would argue that back then Gudbranson was just the player we needed (and arguably we could really use a prime Guddy now)

Burrows for Dahlen. Forced again but we get some value back for a player who deserved out.

Hansen for Goldobin + 4th. Bad player coming back again, maybe this is due to scouting?

Vanek for Motte and Jokinen. Pretty lateral move for older guys but you can't say acquiring Motte was a bad deal, Vanek's stats really got padded here.

Del Zotto for Luke Schenn. Steal.

Gudbranson for Pearson. Great trade again at the time, sure we shouldn't have acquired him but Pearson was very solid for us for a while.

Dahlen for Karlsson. Karlsson looks very good right now so maybe this trade wasn't the worst in the world?

JT Miller acquired for a 1st (Mukhamadullin) + 3rd + Mazanec. One of the best trades of the franchise. Obviously we don't know how good Mukh is going to be (big young Russian defender) but this trade has kept us out of the conference basement (for better or for worse) and kept us relatively relevant. You have to commend the scouting on this one, Miller came in as what, a 2nd or 3rd liner and ends up being our 99pt top line center.

2nd + 4th + change for Toffoli. Those picks ended up being pretty average guys anyway but still that was a big haul for a guy who played like 20 games as a rental with us and then we don't re-sign him. That's a different story, but the value for the trade was pretty average.

Schmidt for a 3rd. Absolute steal yet again, I know Schmidt didn't like it here but he was a solid defenceman for Vegas, it just didn't pan out. Ironically we get the 3rd back and draft Elias Pettersson.

Dickinson for a 3rd round pick. At the time, looks like a good deal but boy does this trade haunt us.

The big one. OEL + Garland for 1st (Guenther) + 2nd (Haight) + Roussel, Beagle, Eriksson. Desperation trade when a GM can see the light at the end of his tunnel. At the time I sort of understood it, OEL and Garland were two top players, but they just haven't been the same. Can't forget that while it seemed like a cap dump, we were taking on 12M in cap space as well. Bad deal all around, we were something like just a year or two off having all those plugs off our roster for good.

Juolevi for Lammikko. This was a great deal at the time, obviously Juolevi was trash for us and never panned out but we somehow get one of the best 4Cs we've had in ages. Mistake IMO to not re-sign him but Aman and Joshua made him expendable. 

 

So on the whole looking back, some absolute steals by JB (the Miller deal in particular), a lot of quite lateral trades which were sort of win-wins for both teams but honestly didn't have much of an impact, and then the big nasty OEL trade. I'd rate him pretty average on the whole. One thing though is that all those trades addressed the team needs in an instant. When we needed a defenceman, we got Gudbranson. When we needed a checking center we got Sutter. 

 

Pretty good take on the trades as a whole but I would mention a few things...

 

Bonino and more for Brandon Sutter was a bad trade.  Like Benning I undervalued Bonino and he went on to do bigger things the next couple years than Brandon did in his whole career.  And I say that as a big fan of Brandon's Dad...Brent Sutter was one of my favorite players despite what he did to us in 1982.  Bonino straight across the board for Sutter could maybe have been called even.  We were lucky to get Bonino in the Kesler trade and like several of Benning's good moves...he went and almost immediately undid that move (Forsling, McCann, etc.).  Bonino was close to a Conn Smythe candidate in the 2016 Cup run.

 

Jonathan Dahlen...thought he was a good prospect to get for Burrows.  Another guy whose Dad was a good player.  I was not pleased when we traded him and then he started lighting it up at the start of that NHL season.  But looks like he was basically another Goldobin / Shinkaruk etc.  As for Goldobin...I don't know what we really expected to get for a declining Hansen.  A 1st rounder reclamation project sounds pretty decent.

 

Bieksa...we should have just kept him.  He is exactly the kind of defenseman we have needed since then which is why we are so over the moon about Luke Schenn.

[Fred65]

Bieska went on to play a further number of seasons, so there was no rush to move him 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

11 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Pretty good take on the trades as a whole but I would mention a few things...

 

Bonino and more for Brandon Sutter was a bad trade.  Like Benning I undervalued Bonino and he went on to do bigger things the next couple years than Brandon did in his whole career.  And I say that as a big fan of Brandon's Dad...Brent Sutter was one of my favorite players despite what he did to us in 1982.  Bonino straight across the board for Sutter could maybe have been called even.  We were lucky to get Bonino in the Kesler trade and like several of Benning's good moves...he went and almost immediately undid that move (Forsling, McCann, etc.).  Bonino was close to a Conn Smythe candidate in the 2016 Cup run.

 

Jonathan Dahlen...thought he was a good prospect to get for Burrows.  Another guy whose Dad was a good player.  I was not pleased when we traded him and then he started lighting it up at the start of that NHL season.  But looks like he was basically another Goldobin / Shinkaruk etc.  As for Goldobin...I don't know what we really expected to get for a declining Hansen.  A 1st rounder reclamation project sounds pretty decent.

 

Bieksa...we should have just kept him.  He is exactly the kind of defenseman we have needed since then which is why we are so over the moon about Luke Schenn.

I underrated Sutter (particularly his defensive abilities).  But I didn't underrate him too much as I still have this play stuck in my brain:

 

 

 

Bonino had the advantage of being a better playmaking center (imho) and thus when he 'clicked' with Kessell (who seemed to find another gear that post-season) it was kind of like magic.  Sutter was always more of a 'shoot first' center (and why not as he did have a solid NHL calibre shot).  Bonino would be the right kind of center for Boeser (my opinion) today.  Well not today's Bonino of course but THAT Bonino.

Edited June 14, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[Baggins]

On 6/13/2023 at 1:32 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Pretty good take on the trades as a whole but I would mention a few things...

 

Bonino and more for Brandon Sutter was a bad trade.  Like Benning I undervalued Bonino and he went on to do bigger things the next couple years than Brandon did in his whole career.  And I say that as a big fan of Brandon's Dad...Brent Sutter was one of my favorite players despite what he did to us in 1982.  Bonino straight across the board for Sutter could maybe have been called even.  We were lucky to get Bonino in the Kesler trade and like several of Benning's good moves...he went and almost immediately undid that move (Forsling, McCann, etc.).  Bonino was close to a Conn Smythe candidate in the 2016 Cup run.

 

Jonathan Dahlen...thought he was a good prospect to get for Burrows.  Another guy whose Dad was a good player.  I was not pleased when we traded him and then he started lighting it up at the start of that NHL season.  But looks like he was basically another Goldobin / Shinkaruk etc.  As for Goldobin...I don't know what we really expected to get for a declining Hansen.  A 1st rounder reclamation project sounds pretty decent.

 

Bieksa...we should have just kept him.  He is exactly the kind of defenseman we have needed since then which is why we are so over the moon about Luke Schenn.

Bonino is overrated here for some reason. Likely because of winning a cup in Pittsburgh as if he was the big factor in that rather than the addition of Kessel. Bonino had better wingers in Pitts and yet similar production to Sutter. The knock on Bonino here was his skating and not having 2nd line production, but he was cheap. I didn't think he was slow, but he wasn't particularly fast either. Sutter was a better skater, better defensively, and a good pk'er as well. Simply put, Sutter was a better overall center of the two. When Bonino's cheaper contract expired two years after the trade he got pretty similar money to Sutter, and never hit 40 points himself. Again, overall Sutter was the better player and for that two years Bonino's cheaper contract, cap wasn't exactly a big concern for us. It's a shame covid ended Sutter's career. He wanted to be here and showed it signing for 1.125m. He'd likely still be our best 4C option and a solid addition to the PK. That trade never bothered me.

 

Btw, Forsling finally made it after being claimed off waivers. He was traded for a player further along in development rather than waiting years and years on a longshot 5th rounder. McCann has finally achieved success with his fifth freaking team. I'll never understand people whing about these two players being traded. It's well known McCann was something of a problem child here. It took three more teams after that trade to find success.

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Bonino is overrated here for some reason. Likely because of winning a cup in Pittsburgh as if he was the big factor in that rather than the addition of Kessel. Bonino had better wingers in Pitts and yet similar production to Sutter. The knock on Bonino here was his skating and not having 2nd line production, but he was cheap. I didn't think he was slow, but he wasn't particularly fast either. Sutter was a better skater, better defensively, and a good pk'er as well. Simply put, Sutter was a better overall center of the two. When Bonino's cheaper contract expired two years after the trade he got pretty similar money to Sutter, and never hit 40 points himself. Again, overall Sutter was the better player and for that two years Bonino's cheaper contract, cap wasn't exactly a big concern for us. It's a shame covid ended Sutter's career. He wanted to be here and showed it signing for 1.125m. He'd likely still be our best 4C option and a solid addition to the PK. That trade never bothered me.

 

Btw, Forsling finally made it after being claimed off waivers. He was traded for a player further along in development rather than waiting years and years on a longshot 5th rounder. McCann has finally achieved success with his fifth freaking team. I'll never understand people whing about these two players being traded. It's well known McCann was something of a problem child here. It took three more teams after that trade to find success.

 

Bonino had 18 points in 24 playoffs games in his first Cup with Pittsburgh.  He was 12th and 13th for the Selke Trophy in two seasons after leaving the Canucks.  These are both achievements that Brandon Sutter never matched.  I liked Brandon Sutter...would have been good to have around for a while as a 3rd and then eventually 4th C but Benning overvalued him with all the foundational stuff and like I said...I think Bonino straight across for Sutter is fair.  Throwing in the extra stuff that Benning did...bad deal in my opinion.

 

Benning falls in love with Juolevi for his World Juniors.  Then Forsling kills it at the World Juniors and Benning cuts bait for a guy with a much lower ceiling.

 

Virtanen lays the biggest egg in Canadian history at the World Juniors and then Benning sends McCann packing instead...with McCann even now being called the problem child while Virtanen can't even keep a locker room from wanting him punted in Europe.  Benning's decisions here were like a monkey flipping coins and he almost always seemed to call it wrong.

[Baggins]

3 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Bonino had 18 points in 24 playoffs games in his first Cup with Pittsburgh.  He was 12th and 13th for the Selke Trophy in two seasons after leaving the Canucks.  These are both achievements that Brandon Sutter never matched.  I liked Brandon Sutter...would have been good to have around for a while as a 3rd and then eventually 4th C but Benning overvalued him with all the foundational stuff and like I said...I think Bonino straight across for Sutter is fair.  Throwing in the extra stuff that Benning did...bad deal in my opinion.

 

Benning falls in love with Juolevi for his World Juniors.  Then Forsling kills it at the World Juniors and Benning cuts bait for a guy with a much lower ceiling.

 

Virtanen lays the biggest egg in Canadian history at the World Juniors and then Benning sends McCann packing instead...with McCann even now being called the problem child while Virtanen can't even keep a locker room from wanting him punted in Europe.  Benning's decisions here were like a monkey flipping coins and he almost always seemed to call it wrong.

Who was on Bonino's wing? We didn't have a Kessel and more to put on his wing here. The following season he had 7 pts in 21 playoff games. Cherry picking one playoff does change the quality of the player over two seasons.

 

Juolevi blah blah blah, whine, whine, whine. Chicago took Cam Barker 3rd overall. Crap happens. Forsling was a longshot. Period. He was so high skill with a such high ceiling he was claimed off waivers before playing a full NHL season.That's the reality.

 

I could absolutely understand keeping Virtanaen over Mccann pre-crystal ball. Both were party boys, but a fast skating power forward has more value than a nothing special center. What happened afterward is irrelevant to the reality of the time a decision needed to be made. The rest is just hindsight.

[Kevin Biestra]

3 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Who was on Bonino's wing? We didn't have a Kessel and more to put on his wing here. The following season he had 7 pts in 21 playoff games. Cherry picking one playoff does change the quality of the player over two seasons.

 

Juolevi blah blah blah, whine, whine, whine. Chicago took Cam Barker 3rd overall. Crap happens. Forsling was a longshot. Period. He was so high skill with a such high ceiling he was claimed off waivers before playing a full NHL season.That's the reality.

 

I could absolutely understand keeping Virtanaen over Mccann pre-crystal ball. Both were party boys, but a fast skating power forward has more value than a nothing special center. What happened afterward is irrelevant to the reality of the time a decision needed to be made. The rest is just hindsight.

 

And Brandon Sutter ended up on a line with BOTH SEDINS and couldn't convert that into what Bonino did playing with Kessel.  He had a playoff year Sutter has never achieved, plus another Cup which was a Cup with him performing at Brandon Sutter levels.  He also had two Selke candidate seasons at a level that Sutter never achieved in the eyes of the voters.  The guy was a good player.

 

At the time I thought trading Forsling was questionable.  Let's hang onto this guy and see if that WJC indicates something.  It did and it only reinforced what Benning / the scouts apparently must have seen in him to draft him.  So he starts panning out and we trade him for Clendening.

 

Virtanen was sent to the WJCs because McCann was playing better than him and was more needed in the Canucks lineup.  He then went and delivered maybe the most disappointing performance by any player that I have ever seen.  Again...we draft McCann late in the first round, he seems to be panning out all right, so we use him as a trade throw in.  We amateur scout McCann properly and then professionally evaluate both him and Gudbranson improperly.

[Baggins]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

And Brandon Sutter ended up on a line with BOTH SEDINS and couldn't convert that into what Bonino did playing with Kessel.  He had a playoff year Sutter has never achieved, plus another Cup which was a Cup with him performing at Brandon Sutter levels.  He also had two Selke candidate seasons at a level that Sutter never achieved in the eyes of the voters.  The guy was a good player.

 

At the time I thought trading Forsling was questionable.  Let's hang onto this guy and see if that WJC indicates something.  It did and it only reinforced what Benning / the scouts apparently must have seen in him to draft him.  So he starts panning out and we trade him for Clendening.

 

Virtanen was sent to the WJCs because McCann was playing better than him and was more needed in the Canucks lineup.  He then went and delivered maybe the most disappointing performance by any player that I have ever seen.  Again...we draft McCann late in the first round, he seems to be panning out all right, so we use him as a trade throw in.  We amateur scout McCann properly and then professionally evaluate both him and Gudbranson improperly.

"At the time" there are always people thinking whatever is questionable. It's still just hindsight. I couldn't count the times I saw Shinkartuk called our future top line winger. The same was said when traded for Granlund. The "we traded a future first liner for a nobody" had me laughing at the time. Forsling was a late bloomer in the end. Full stop. Late bloomers don't often get to bloom with the team that drafted them. Waivers tend to get in the way. Still, he wasn't "given up on" as many like to say here. You want something you need to trade something. The something you move needs to be something the other team actually wants. Forsling was still a long shot when traded. Chicago traded him because he ran out of time. Did they give up too soon.? He was claimed off waivers after the trade. That's the reality of late bloomers. Forsling for Clendening was moving a decent longshot years away for a big young d-man with good AHL numbers now. Chicago was moving Clendening for the same reason they moved Forsling years later. Neither was going to make their team and neither was very likely to clear waivers. Both took too long, one eventually did bloom in the NHL. The problem is, given how long they've had, you don't actually know if they will bloom. That's hindsight.

 

I don't recall McCann even being invited to the world junior team. It doesn't matter, a decision needed to be made and imo it was the logical choice. A power forward has more value than a meh center. You go with what you know at that time.

 

Sutter & Sedins? I don't recall that ever being an extended option. Here and there but not a line for any extended priod. I think you're clutching at straws there. Sutter was without a doubt at least in my mind, a better overall center than Bonino.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

41 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

And Brandon Sutter ended up on a line with BOTH SEDINS and couldn't convert that into what Bonino did playing with Kessel.  He had a playoff year Sutter has never achieved, plus another Cup which was a Cup with him performing at Brandon Sutter levels.  He also had two Selke candidate seasons at a level that Sutter never achieved in the eyes of the voters.  The guy was a good player.

 

At the time I thought trading Forsling was questionable.  Let's hang onto this guy and see if that WJC indicates something.  It did and it only reinforced what Benning / the scouts apparently must have seen in him to draft him.  So he starts panning out and we trade him for Clendening.

 

Virtanen was sent to the WJCs because McCann was playing better than him and was more needed in the Canucks lineup.  He then went and delivered maybe the most disappointing performance by any player that I have ever seen.  Again...we draft McCann late in the first round, he seems to be panning out all right, so we use him as a trade throw in.  We amateur scout McCann properly and then professionally evaluate both him and Gudbranson improperly.

Our US amateur scouts seemed to have a good number of "hits" than our disappointing Western Canada scouts.  Maybe our "best hit" was Grabner?  (that Gillis tosssed away in that ill fated Booth Trade).

Edited June 15, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[NewbieCanuckFan]

5 minutes ago, Baggins said:

Sutter was without a doubt at least in my mind, a better overall center than Bonino.

To us he was because of his strengths (defensive play at center).  Never really replaced his abilities (Horvat tried but that isn't his forte).

Edited June 15, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan