[Discussion] Arizona/OEL

[Odjick the Warrior]

36 minutes ago, Teemu Selänne said:

From Drance & Dhaliwal:
 

 

Who says the Bruins are actually interested in OEL and are just using Arizona and OEL to drive Krug’s price down?

It doesn’t make sense to me that they say no to Krug who only costs money, while trading out a player like DeBrusk and a defense prospect and draft picks for someone making more then they want to pay Krug 

The more and more I hear Boston being involved, the more I think they are using it to drive down Krug’s price

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, Robert Long said:

gotta give to get tho... buyout Sutter and Baer to make cap space for TJ, get Foote as the bonus. Just a thought. 

I don't think the team is in a position to eat cap in exchange for futures - and particularly not 5 million for 4 years.  I think they're at a diffent 'stage'.

 

I wouldn't go the buyout route either - certainly would not buyout Sutter.

 

I'd probably start by moving a few of the more moveable veteran wingers - perhaps package Pearson and Roussel to Montreal for 2nd and 3rd round picks.

Get out ahead of it - relieve some cap tightness - remove some leverage of teams looking to exploit it - sign the key UFAS like Markstrom and Tanev....take the loss of Pearson - get a pick in the draft and possibly use the other pick to move Baertschi to Detroit....see who might be interested in Benn (perhaps even Arizona if they're moving out bigger D contracts...

I realize Pearson is a 21g scorer - good fit for Horvat - good two way player, some heaviness and hard to play against elements and not easy to replace, but I think the team is likely to have to take a loss this offseason, so if I could get a slightly lower than market (imo) value for Pearson, I might start there just to get the rest of the bottleneck moving.  If they make an OEL type deal, it still requires some cap clearing.  Also if they did then move the subsequent Baer/Benn deals, they'd be in a better position with their expiring RFAs and any spots left to fill...

 

[Lionized27]

39 minutes ago, rekker said:

If LE is holding up the deal and Arizona doesn't want him could the Canucks retain say a couple million of his salary? The Coyotes are only paying him 1.5 per year then. 

This could be a possibility. The retention could be for next year where his bonus is $1m and actual salary at $3m. for 2020-21 it's reversed where his bonus (already paid) is $3m where actual salary is $1m.

Of course his cap hit remains at $6m.

 

Perhaps the discussion between Benning and Armstrong could be what the retention is for next season?

[knucklehead91]

1 hour ago, Barry_Wilkins said:

You've thrown a lot on the wall in the hopes that some of it will stick.

 

First off, I don't "hate on" players, unless they're total dirtbags off the ice. I hate bad contracts, and Louie's contract is the second worst in the league (after Lucic's, who, if rumor has it, was Benning's first choice.)

 

You've put six pounds of Leipsic on this pig, but there's no getting around it. Louie's contract (not the player, he serves a function) is horrid. Players who make $6 million a year should not be dependent on generational talents to make them succeed. They have to drive play themselves. Loui not only hasn't driven play here even in his "best" and "youngest" years, he's been a black hole -- offensively -- with any linemates he's found himself playing with. He's a defense-only forward. Until this past year, when he was rightfully benched -- in the regular season and in the playoffs, and even with many other forwards injured -- he was perfectly serviceable as a bottom 6 forward who you could rely on to prevent scoring chances. But, again, it's all about the contract.

 

As for the "the contract hasn't hurt us" comment, come on. Seriously? If you mean we weren't going to win the Cup anyway in his first 4 years, so what? it's about building a team, with all parts functioning, or as many as possible. Loui's cap hit meant that Benning couldn't sign other players during those years because the cap ceiling was tight. Other bad contracts just upped the original $6 mil per year mistake. We had no wiggle room, no way to improve the team at the trade deadline, no way to take on someone else's bad contract in exchange for young players or much needed draft picks, which we're now bleeding. and, of course, one of the chief benefits of trading for OEL is to get rid of Loui's contract. a pretty damning comment on it when it's so bad that it's a major incentive from Vancouver's perspective. I won't even comment on all the other players we won't be able to resign or add, if we can't nix Loui's remaining two years.

 

I stated on this forum two years ago that they should've parked Loui in Utica, told him he was to play on the checking line with no PP time, wish him good luck, and hope that he'd mentor some of the younger prospects before getting fed up and retiring, thereby cancelling the back half contractual commitments. Others are finally coming around to that idea.

 

So moving Loui’s 6mil and 2 years remaing and adding OEL’s 8.25mil and 7 years gives us room to sign Petey and Hughes, Demko, Boeser and Horvat in the next 3 years??

im no mathematician but let me just calculate what you are saying...

6,000,000 minus 8,250,000... equals more room to sign players... k gotcha.  
2 years minus 7 years equals 5 years freed up?

For some strange reason my calculator says we are lose 2,250,000 in cap space and are adding 5 years overtop of Erikssons contract... 

 

His contract is horrid in hindsight, being paid $6,000,000 and forced down the lineup after we went through a rebuild... However unlike Lucic, Eriksson can still serve a purpose.

 

the team sucked for 4 years, no one was scoring. He aged and youth pushed him down the lineup. It was entirely fair value at the time of the signing, however the team was not at that stage to compete and win a cup. It was a last ditch effort to

1) remain as competitive as possible

2) throw a hail mary and hope the Sedins would win a cup

 

The team entered a rebuild and any player in their late 20s early 30s would have the remainder of their career swallowed up by a rebuild. Especially when we had zero dmen that could change the game or a full first line let alone a second line.

 

Now Im not saying I dont want OEL, if we could move Eriksson across in the OEL trade im all for it... but OELs contract will come with its own obstacles down the road and there will be 7 years of obstacles to account for. With Loui, theres only 2 years of obstacles... and realisically there arent many obstacles in these final 2 years... 

Boeser is an RFA at the same time Loui is off the books.

Marky is either re-signed or Demko takes over and is an RFA next season, add another 2.25m when you add OEL over Eriksson to the cap and balance out Demko’s next contract, Boeser’s, Horvat the following year... And dont forget Petey and Hughes.

Arizona is tight on cap space and cant afford to take on extra cap. So they will be shedding cap rather than taking on anything excess of 8.25 that they need to shed.
 

Hell even if Benning got Eriksson at 3 effin million, that extra 3 million isnt going to land you a JT Miller and a Hughes type player that turn the team around on a dime and win us a cup in those 4 years.

 

Please.... tell me what game breaking UFA we missed out on the past 4 years...
John Tavares??? Lol no thanks

Radulov... pass

Panarin?? Say goodbye to Petey or Hughes. 
Erikssons contract is a moot point. We werent going to win with him and his contract has not stopped us from winning a cup, nor suffered casualties because of it. He comes off when the timing is right. And much like his offense, its like he never existed on the team. We will be in full on mode to win at that point and have many good years to win.

 

In hindsight, Erikssons contract has reserved $6,000,000 for our all in moment. If we stick with it and ride his contract out, we can sort out or cap situation for the perfect moment where that cap hit comes off and we add a $6,000,000 player that WILL put us over the top.

 

Filip Forsberg will be a UFA possibly unless he reaches a contract extension. And a contract could be moved out with or without retention to sign a guy like Forsberg.

Rikard Rakell
Tomas Hertl

Sean Couturier

 

We will become a UFA hotspot destination. Players see what we are becoming and see the potential.

Brendon Dillon and Toffoli have both stated that players see how good Vancouver is becoming and players want to be part of it.

 

OEL could be the guy that puts us in a position to win now, but the window may close sooner than if we were to wait. when the balancing of his salary, petterssons and hughes become a juggling act with Boeser, Horvat, Demko, Miller are all combined and key players are lost in free agency or moved in a trade to shed cap and acquire prospects and picks.

There are a lot of key guys that will need new contracts and that 7 years of 8.25 is going to consume the room to keep a Boeser and a Horvat with reasonable raises. OEL will prevent the 2-3 player signings in the future, not Erikssons who is done in a stones throw. He had a great paycheque on a losing team and didnt cost us the future

edit: dont forget we have those cheap servicable players in Rafferty, Juolevi and Tryamkin. We have yet to give them a fair shake, so why jump to a conclusion of filling a “hole” with some other organizations player, when the solution could be within our own.

 

Dont forget we also have Podkokzin and Hoglander who will be competing for roster spots. If they crack the roster spots and if they make it.. and pull a hughes or petey like debuts, they RFA years will be fairly expensive and we will lose roster players.

OELs 8.25 is going to eat up 10% of our cap space for 7 years. We will turn into the toronto maple laughs. 4 players taking up nearly 40% of the cap. (Petey, Hughes and OEL)
 

its best to wait out Erikssons contract

Edited October 6, 2020 by knucklehead91

[Googlie]

8 minutes ago, Lionized27 said:

This could be a possibility. The retention could be for next year where his bonus is $1m and actual salary at $3m. for 2020-21 it's reversed where his bonus (already paid) is $3m where actual salary is $1m.

Of course his cap hit remains at $6m.

 

Perhaps the discussion between Benning and Armstrong could be what the retention is for next season?

So if we retained $1 million of salary, would we have $6 million cap hit this coming season (100% of salary), and $2 million his last season (1/3rd of salary) - (or $1.5 million - 1/4 of salary+bonus)?

[Outsiders]

10 hours ago, NUCKER67 said:

Ekman-Larsson - Hughes

Edler - Myers

Juolevi - ??

 

That's a pretty great Top 4, and D wins championships. 

 

Sounds like ARI really wants Demko, but apparently it's a non-starter with Benning. Should Benning trade Demko and sign Lundqvist (cheap) to back up Markstrom for a year? King Henrik just wants to win, he doesn't need anymore money. They could always sign another reasonable UFA goalie in 2021/22, until DiPietro arrives.

 

to ARI - Demko, Eriksson, Sutter and Virtanen

to VAN - Ekman-Larsson and 2nd

 

Not sure I would actually really want this, just another option. 

If we then could pull off a trade/offersheet to Tampa for Cernak 

 

OEL-Myers

Hughes-Cernak

Edler-Rafferty

 

Then Rathbone takes Edler's spot after next season!

Edited October 6, 2020 by Outsiders

[Lionized27]

5 minutes ago, Googlie said:

So if we retained $1 million of salary, would we have $6 million cap hit this coming season (100% of salary), and $2 million his last season (1/3rd of salary) - (or $1.5 million - 1/4 of salary+bonus)?

From my understanding only 50% salary can be retained. This could be for both remaining years. 

[GhostsOf1994]

1 hour ago, Lionized27 said:

From my understanding only 50% salary can be retained. This could be for both remaining years. 

So the maximum a team can retain is 50% of any standard nhl contract.

 

If it was 25% retention it would be the same, the retention runs the same % during the entire duration of any contract.

 

If the canucks trade for OEL (8.5m) with 7 years left any retention would last 7 years, the duration of the contract.

 

Hope that that helps

 

Edit

 

More then one team can retain on a contract.

 

@King Heffy thanks

Edited October 6, 2020 by GhostsOf1994
Hit with some knowledge

[King Heffy]

10 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said:

So the maximum a team can retain is 50% of any standard nhl contract.

 

Only one team can retain on any 1 contract, for example.

 

If Eriksson is traded with 50% retention to Ottawa.

 

Ottawa goes to trade Eriksson( canucks retain 50%) Ottawa cannot retain any of the remaining 50%.

 

Erikssons contract has 2 years remaining, if a team retains 50% that is 50% over both years.

 

If it was 25% retention it would be the same, the retention runs the same % during the entire duration of any contract.

 

If the canucks trade for OEL (8.5m) with 7 years left any retention would last 7 years, the duration of the contract.

 

Hope that helps

 

@Googlie

Not true; 2 teams can retain unless the new CBA has changed this.

[Barry_Wilkins]

36 minutes ago, knucklehead91 said:

So moving Loui’s 6mil and 2 years remaing and adding OEL’s 8.25mil and 7 years gives us room to sign Petey and Hughes, Demko, Boeser and Horvat in the next 3 years??

im no mathematician but let me just calculate what you are saying...

6,000,000 minus 8,250,000... equals more room to sign players... k gotcha.  
2 years minus 7 years equals 5 years freed up?

For some strange reason my calculator says we are lose 2,250,000 in cap space and are adding 5 years overtop of Erikssons contract... 

 

His contract is horrid in hindsight, being paid $6,000,000 and forced down the lineup after we went through a rebuild... However unlike Lucic, Eriksson can still serve a purpose.

 

the team sucked for 4 years, no one was scoring. He aged and youth pushed him down the lineup. It was entirely fair value at the time of the signing, however the team was not at that stage to compete and win a cup. It was a last ditch effort to

1) remain as competitive as possible

2) throw a hail mary and hope the Sedins would win a cup

 

The team entered a rebuild and any player in their late 20s early 30s would have the remainder of their career swallowed up by a rebuild. Especially when we had zero dmen that could change the game or a full first line let alone a second line.

 

Now Im not saying I dont want OEL, if we could move Eriksson across in the OEL trade im all for it... but OELs contract will come with its own obstacles down the road and there will be 7 years of obstacles to account for. With Loui, theres only 2 years of obstacles... and realisically there arent many obstacles in these final 2 years... 

Boeser is an RFA at the same time Loui is off the books.

Marky is either re-signed or Demko takes over and is an RFA next season, add another 2.25m when you add OEL over Eriksson to the cap and balance out Demko’s next contract, Boeser’s, Horvat the following year... And dont forget Petey and Hughes.

Arizona is tight on cap space and cant afford to take on extra cap. So they will be shedding cap rather than taking on anything excess of 8.5 that they need to shed.
 

Hell even if Benning got Eriksson at 3 effin million, that extra 3 million isnt going to land you a JT Miller and a Hughes type player that turn the team around on a dime and win us a cup in those 4 years.

 

Please.... tell me what game breaking UFA we missed out on the past 4 years...
John Tavares??? Lol no thanks

Radulov... pass

Panarin?? Say goodbye to Petey or Hughes. 
Erikssons contract is a moot point. We werent going to win with him and his contract has not stopped us from winning a cup, nor suffered casualties because of it. He comes off when the timing is right. And much like his offense, its like he never existed on the team. We will be in full on mode to win at that point and have many good years to win.

 

In hindsight, Erikssons contract has reserved $6,000,000 for our all in moment. If we stick with it and ride his contract out, we can sort out or cap situation for the perfect moment where that cap hit comes off and we add a $6,000,000 player that WILL put us over the top.

 

Filip Forsberg will be a UFA possibly unless he reaches a contract extension. And a contract could be moved out with or without retention to sign a guy like Forsberg.

Rikard Rakell
Tomas Hertl

Sean Couturier

 

We will become a UFA hotspot destination. Players see what we are becoming and see the potential.

Brendon Dillon and Toffoli have both stated that players see how good Vancouver is becoming and players want to be part of it.

 

OEL could be the guy that puts us in a position to win now, but the window may close sooner than if we were to wait. when the balancing of his salary, petterssons and hughes become a juggling act with Boeser, Horvat, Demko, Miller are all combined and key players are lost in free agency or moved in a trade to shed cap and acquire prospects and picks.

There are a lot of key guys that will need new contracts and that 7 years of 8.25 is going to consume the room to keep a Boeser and a Horvat with reasonable raises. OEL will prevent the 2-3 player signings in the future, not Erikssons who is done in a stones throw. He had a great paycheque on a losing team and didnt cost us the future

 

I can't even begin to sort out that wall of wandering off-topic text, almost none of it countering anything I've said. The level of assumptions you're assigning to me is staggering. It's reminiscent of the old joke by the deceptive lawyer who's grilling the defendent: "When did you stop beating your wife?" To answer in the negative is to admit that the premise is accurate.

 

I can't pass up this one gem, though:

 

"He [Louie] aged, and youth pushed him down the line-up."

 

So you thought that we'd only get two years out of him? Of course he aged, as do all humans. Not much of a surprise. But he wasn't even "good" for those first two years. A couple of 11 goal seasons, and while playing high up in the line-up. "Youth" didn't push him down the line-up. His own lack of production did. On the contrary, the coach and management had a great deal of incentive to keep Louie with the best players for far longer than would otherwise be the case since they had so much invested in him, and for such a long time.

 

The equivalent situation would be for OEL to immediately become a third-pairing D, and for management to finally admit their mistake, and the coach then puts OEL out with another #5 or #6 Dman to play 14 minutes a night and kill the odd penalty. Do you think that's likely? Even remotely?

 

Also, you need to get up to speed on Louie's financials. Vancouver is (potentially) lucky in that Loui's contract is heavily front-loaded. His cap hit is $6 mil, but whatever owner is signing his checks in a few months is paying him less than half that, which is a major attraction for Arizona, who are trying to cut cash, not just cap. Needless to say, it's not all about this year, either. What with Covid and their aborted window to compete, they're on yet another building mode, and $57.75 million off the books over 7 years is very attractive as compared with the cash outlay to Loui at around $5 mil over two years.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Barry_Wilkins

[Lionized27]

11 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Not true; 2 teams can retain unless the new CBA has changed this.

I believe you're correct to a maximum of 50% retained.

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, Lionized27 said:

I believe you're correct to a maximum of 50% retained.

Nope, you can retain again after 50% was retained.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-retained-salary-trades/

 

Quote

Real Example: Devan Dubnyk’s cross-continent travels in 2014 demonstrated a number of these provisions:

• Jan 15, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Edmonton to Nashville.
  • Edmonton retained 50% of his salary, or $1.75M of the $3.5M total.
• March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was traded from Nashville to Montreal.
  • Nashville retained 25% of his salary (which applies to the original total).  Therefore, the Predators retained $0.875M.
• March 5, 2014: Dubnyk was immediately demoted to Montreal’s AHL affiliate in Hamilton.
  • After the demotion, he didn’t count against Montreal’s cap but he did still count against Edmonton’s ($1.75M) and Nashville’s ($0.875M).

CBA Reference: 50.5 (e-iii) Pages 271-274

 

[Lionized27]

16 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Nope, you can retain again after 50% was retained.

https://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-retained-salary-trades/

 

 

Nice.

Although Eriksson isn't owed much in actual salary (relatively speaking) I'm sure this could possibly be a detail that is being worked on. Especially when you consider the cap hit is still reflected in the percentage retained.

[N4ZZY]

On 10/3/2020 at 2:47 AM, PetterssonOrPeterson said:

Well, this is all assuming GMJB has a plan and can make other deals to clear up space which he will have to do anyway if he goes for OEL.

8.25 million X 7yrs isn’t cheap.

Also, how much more exactly would Pietrangelo cost?

Let’s say a 10 million dollar contract for 5 years? I would do it. He’s right handed and I’d say a superior defenceman. We’re also saving money because it’s a shorter term. 
 

Arizona wants a first rounder + a young defensive prospect for that OEL contract too.

We’d be losing more by trying to acquire OEL.

Pietrangelo would only cost money right? Where for OEL we'd be giving away assets. A first and a defensive prospect? No to the first. Defensive prospect? I guess they're looking at Juolevi, no? 

 

 

[N4ZZY]

On 10/2/2020 at 11:00 PM, Junkyard Dog said:

Yotes couldn't do that either since they still have Raanta and Keumper signed.

 

They also have a similarly aged goalie in Hill who looks ready to make the jump. Seemed to play well in the NHL games he had this year. He could be their Demko already.

 

They are probably looking to trade a goalie since both Raanta and Keumper are a bit over 4M.

 

We could try for Raanta in the deal if Marky walked.

I'm thinking, it's October 6 already. Free Agency is basically right after the draft, no? Marky's not coming back. 

 

[dougieL]

3 hours ago, Barry_Wilkins said:

Your reading comprehension needs to improve. I was talking specifically about Loui, whose numbers tanked immediately upon arriving in Vancouver. So you're making my point. Top cap hits, for forwards OR Dmen, should only go to high point producers.

 

My contrast between differences in OEL and Loui's game, and their differing positions, talents, and team situations, remain, and are pertinent. I notice you didn't address those arguments.

 

The cap hit is 8.25 mil. "These numbers are reserved for top defensemen who contribute offensively". Are you arguing that OEL is not a top offensive Dman?

 

Here are his numbers from the last 6 full seasons, newest to oldest (not including the abbreviated past season).

 

T21 place with  49pts

T23 42 pts

T24 39 pts

7 55 pts

22 43 pts

T15 50 pts

 

By definition, OEL has consistently been a #1 Dman (always better than 31st place) on offense.

 

As for your quibble about "should", only a fool would guarantee and pencil in point production for a player in the future. It's about probabilities. OEL's as sure as you can get to projecting, with pretty good confidence, that he'll replicate, slightly reduce, or even INcrease his average production from his last six full seasons.

 

If you want a guarantee, buy a dishwasher from a reputable company, and get the manufacturer's insistence on it.

 

 

For 4 of the past 6 seasons, his numbers have been in the bottom 2/3 of the group you call "No. 1 dmen". You should look up what the average cap hit is for dmen in that range. I can't imagine a reasonable person believing that, at age 29, he is worth 8.25m for 7 more years - those numbers are reserved for _truly elite_ No. 1 dmen, not just dmen whose offensive production typically falls in the 20s.

 

 

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

I hope Benning has his “walk away” conditions clear in his mind and set in stone, because I feel like the longer this takes, the worse the deal we’ll end up with (if an OEL-Canucks deal actually happens).

[Nicklas Bo Hunter]

Lol I just saw van might be talking to TV about stamkos too lol wtf is going on

[CanuckFan1123]

5 minutes ago, Nicklas Bo Hunter said:

Lol I just saw van might be talking to TV about stamkos too lol wtf is going on

Do you have a source on that by chance? 
 

I could actually realistically see Tampa considering trying to move him. They just won a Stanley Cup without him even contributing. They are up against the cap and his salary takes up a lot of space. Even though he’s an amazing player, I could see them feeling like they can win again without him. They can easily get good assets by moving him, and probably re-sign most or all of their top FA dmen (Sergachev, Bogosian, Cernak, and Shattenkirk are all free agents). But at the same time I’d be shocked if they actually do move him. He has a full NMC too so it would be very difficult. 
 

[LegionOfDoom]

31 minutes ago, Nicklas Bo Hunter said:

Lol I just saw van might be talking to TV about stamkos too lol wtf is going on

Even tho I know this is not true, would be a beautiful sight, if we make a trade with Tampa it will be for sergachev or cernak