Was Virtanen mismanaged here?

[CanadianRugby]

On 10/5/2020 at 11:52 PM, Law of Goalies said:

Please get your facts straight. He only came in one season fat and that's why he was quickly demoted to the A. Other times, he only "missed a few targets" in no means indicates he was FAT....come on man

He came in fat after the covid break too.

[EdgarM]

10 hours ago, Baggins said:

Oh they got it right. He's a north south player that isn't particularly creative. We got what he was billed to be. What he was billed as can be a very effective NHL player though. The problem with Jake is his own commitment to be the best he can be. From "missed goals" in offseason fitness to an inconsistent effort on ice are things well within his control and he fails there. That's not a coaching problem as both Willie and then Travis have been on him about it. Both coaches have publicly said what they want from him and been crystal clear about it. That's a player problem and it's entirely on him that he's not responding to that coaching and delivering on and off the ice. If he put in half the effort Motte does he'd be a real asset to the team and a top six regular. He seems content to be average. Meaning he lacks the desire and commitment to be the best he can be. That's wasted potential and he's the one wasting it not the coaches. He's a five year veteran, how long do you wait for him to wake up? Miller said being traded was his wake up call. That's when he responded to coaching and made the effort to improve his game. Miller saw himself as an offensive player. Look at him now. He made himself into a solid two way asset through 100% effort and commitment. You can see that effort on the ice both directions. Miller had three split AHL/NHL seasons and two full seasons in NY before being traded. Sometimes that's what it takes - getting traded. I'm not sure being traded would create that desire in Jake. He just doesn't come across as that smart.

Its funny you are critical of all these things yet his production improved year over year the last 3 seasons and his defensive play improved drastically. All of this while getting very limited ice time and very little time in the top 6 or top PP. Somehow however, LE EARNED his way in the top 6 with ZERO PRODUCTION! 

Now by your description above I woud swear you were talking about Ericksson. 

For the past 3 seasons I believe Jake has done everything that Green wanted him to but what kind of reward does he get? No reward just sitting on the bench with limited ice time or relegated to the press box. Is this what we do to our prospects on a team that is developing its young guys?

Even when he did produce in the top 6 he was not rewarded and relegated back to the checking line with no logical explanation for the move. So much for rewarding those who earned it. 

I just think he is disinterested in playing for Green after all of the hoops he has jumped through with zero results. 

Green needs to go back to the AHL where he belongs and let the big boys handle the pros.

[Baggins]

11 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Its funny you are critical of all these things yet his production improved year over year the last 3 seasons and his defensive play improved drastically. All of this while getting very limited ice time and very little time in the top 6 or top PP. Somehow however, LE EARNED his way in the top 6 with ZERO PRODUCTION! 

Now by your description above I woud swear you were talking about Ericksson. 

For the past 3 seasons I believe Jake has done everything that Green wanted him to but what kind of reward does he get? No reward just sitting on the bench with limited ice time or relegated to the press box. Is this what we do to our prospects on a team that is developing its young guys?

Even when he did produce in the top 6 he was not rewarded and relegated back to the checking line with no logical explanation for the move. So much for rewarding those who earned it. 

I just think he is disinterested in playing for Green after all of the hoops he has jumped through with zero results. 

Green needs to go back to the AHL where he belongs and let the big boys handle the pros.

Nobody has said Jake doesn't have scoring ability. He does. Scoring is only one part of the game though. How effective could he be if he put in the effort being asked of him? How much should the coach trust him when he doesn't know what kind of effort he'll get game to game or even shift to shift? If he scores a goal every 4th game (a 20 goal pace) what use is he the other 3 games? Look no further than Motte in the playoffs. He plays the way they've been trying to get Jake to play the past five years. Hard on the forecheck, hard on the backcheck and finishing checks. What Willie, and now Travis, have been asking of Jake for five years and both said it publicly repeatedly. It makes life harder for the opposition and creates scoring opportunities. Can you honestly say Jake plays that way? Can you say he putting in the effort game to game, shift to shift? If you can't then Jake hasn't jumped through hoops to earn ice time, he's coasting on his scoring. Offensive ice time in the playoffs Motte averaged 11:45 per game (0:02 is pp time) and Jake 11:15 per game (1:28 is pp time). Motte outscored Jake 4-2, outshot him 29-16, outhit him 61-36, and had 17 takeaways to Jakes 6. The way Motte plays leads to offensive opportunities. Jake's own lack of consistent effort is the reason he gets, bounced around, benched and scratched.

 

Motte led our forwards in blocked shots in the playoffs with 24. Now Motte plays on the PK so one would expect him to have more than Jakes measly 5. So lets look at top 6 players: Miller 18, Pearson 17, Horvat 15, Boeser 14, and Pettersson 12. Despite missing 9 games and being on the limp Toffoli had 4 blocked shots. The only other forwards with fewer blocked shots than Jake were MacEwen (6 games played) and Ferland (2 games played). Does that say anything about Jakes effort? Add this, both Pearson and Miller outhit Virtanen in the playoffs.

 

There's more to the game than just scoring goals. Ask Yzerman, Twice cut from Team Canada because scoring isn't enough. He would have continued scoring goals, but he never would have been the player and leader he became if that was enough on it's own. Yzerman was finally threatened with being traded from Detroit if he didn't change the way he played. The only person holding Jake back is Jake. He has all the tools to play the way he's been asked. With his size and speed he could be a force to reckon with and still score. He'd also be more effective those 3 games games he doesn't score. If he only had the desire to put in the effort. That's entirely on him not the coaching. If he's disinterested, as you say, trade him. Disinterested players that don't respond to coaching don't help you win. Miller was the same as Jake in NY. He viewed himself as an offensive player and that's the way he wanted to play. AV was his coach in NY. Another big meanie to young offensive players. His last season there he was 31st among forwards in blocked shots per 60 minutes. That's right, 31st, as the Rangers had 36 forwards play games that season. He had 60 giveaways to 34 takeaways. This last season here he had 36 giveaways to 52 takeaways. Getting traded changed his attitude to being coached. Finally listening and responding changed his game for the better and hasn't stopped him from scoring. And it only took two seasons in the bottom six in Tampa while being bounced around up and down the lines to become a better player. Amazing what an attitude change on the players part can do. But it also takes desire and commitment on the players part. That's when you "earn it".

[Law of Goalies]

On 10/10/2020 at 3:20 AM, CanadianRugby said:

He came in fat after the covid break too.

Please enlighten me on how did he come in fat? 

[EdgarM]

On 10/10/2020 at 10:43 AM, Baggins said:

Nobody has said Jake doesn't have scoring ability. He does. Scoring is only one part of the game though. How effective could he be if he put in the effort being asked of him? How much should the coach trust him when he doesn't know what kind of effort he'll get game to game or even shift to shift? If he scores a goal every 4th game (a 20 goal pace) what use is he the other 3 games? Look no further than Motte in the playoffs. He plays the way they've been trying to get Jake to play the past five years. Hard on the forecheck, hard on the backcheck and finishing checks. What Willie, and now Travis, have been asking of Jake for five years and both said it publicly repeatedly. It makes life harder for the opposition and creates scoring opportunities. Can you honestly say Jake plays that way? Can you say he putting in the effort game to game, shift to shift? If you can't then Jake hasn't jumped through hoops to earn ice time, he's coasting on his scoring. Offensive ice time in the playoffs Motte averaged 11:45 per game (0:02 is pp time) and Jake 11:15 per game (1:28 is pp time). Motte outscored Jake 4-2, outshot him 29-16, outhit him 61-36, and had 17 takeaways to Jakes 6. The way Motte plays leads to offensive opportunities. Jake's own lack of consistent effort is the reason he gets, bounced around, benched and scratched.

 

Motte led our forwards in blocked shots in the playoffs with 24. Now Motte plays on the PK so one would expect him to have more than Jakes measly 5. So lets look at top 6 players: Miller 18, Pearson 17, Horvat 15, Boeser 14, and Pettersson 12. Despite missing 9 games and being on the limp Toffoli had 4 blocked shots. The only other forwards with fewer blocked shots than Jake were MacEwen (6 games played) and Ferland (2 games played). Does that say anything about Jakes effort? Add this, both Pearson and Miller outhit Virtanen in the playoffs.

 

There's more to the game than just scoring goals. Ask Yzerman, Twice cut from Team Canada because scoring isn't enough. He would have continued scoring goals, but he never would have been the player and leader he became if that was enough on it's own. Yzerman was finally threatened with being traded from Detroit if he didn't change the way he played. The only person holding Jake back is Jake. He has all the tools to play the way he's been asked. With his size and speed he could be a force to reckon with and still score. He'd also be more effective those 3 games games he doesn't score. If he only had the desire to put in the effort. That's entirely on him not the coaching. If he's disinterested, as you say, trade him. Disinterested players that don't respond to coaching don't help you win. Miller was the same as Jake in NY. He viewed himself as an offensive player and that's the way he wanted to play. AV was his coach in NY. Another big meanie to young offensive players. His last season there he was 31st among forwards in blocked shots per 60 minutes. That's right, 31st, as the Rangers had 36 forwards play games that season. He had 60 giveaways to 34 takeaways. This last season here he had 36 giveaways to 52 takeaways. Getting traded changed his attitude to being coached. Finally listening and responding changed his game for the better and hasn't stopped him from scoring. And it only took two seasons in the bottom six in Tampa while being bounced around up and down the lines to become a better player. Amazing what an attitude change on the players part can do. But it also takes desire and commitment on the players part. That's when you "earn it".

I see you failed to add all of the stats while you are bashing Jake. I also like how you used a small sample of stats going with the 17 games or ,16 games for Jake, in the playoffs. Jake played the least amount of minutes on the team ahead of only Gaud and Rouss. 

If you look at the stats for the entire year , it paints a different picture. He was 4th on the team in hits and had 28 blocked shots ,which puts him in the average for the team. All while having ranked 20th on ATOI. I guess Green thought 19 other players should be playing ahead of Jake? 

So with ALL THIS ICE TIME he is getting you still want him to be scoring every game and playing like Motte who is way more involved in the game? 

I think your expectations are a little high for Jake and I bet if he was given the opportunity to play more regular minutes, you would see a different player. 

I still can't believe people over look the time Jake was put into the top 6(for only a few games I might add) and produced at about a point per game pace. This while Boeser replaced him on the third line and produced NOTHING! 

But yeah no one is the problem here except Jake, yeah OK. 

Edited October 11, 2020 by EdgarM

[dpn1]

On 9/8/2020 at 3:21 PM, Odd. said:

It may have been a pipe dream, but I was expecting Virtanen to play like his 2015-2016 physical self in these playoffs, back when he would hit anything that moved every chance he got and always took the puck to the net. All he does now is that dump and chase and go off for a quick shift, running around not accomplishing much. 

 

I always get this feeling that Virtanen was mismanaged throughout his time here. Whether it be him starting a year earlier before he was really ready, those 2 years in Utica, and/or being used as a 4th line depth player. I feel like his development has stifled. I get this feeling he's being held back, whether it be the result of Green and his coaching system, or just not being a fit entirely with the makeup of this team.

 

I've always wonder and will continue to wonder with what seems to be Virtanen's final days in Van, what if Virtanen played in a system like the  Vegas Knights, perhaps Boston, the Caps or the Blues. Physical, north-south style teams that play a heavy game and seem to play without any limits. I feel like Virtanen would strive in those types of environments, or maybe it's just a load of BS. 

 

It's hard not to root for the guy, he's got a very rare blend of speed and size. Again has the toolbox, just needs someone to help him use it correctly. Unfortunately, he won't learn it here.

Jake didn't spend 2 years in Utica.  He got sent down after 10 games in his second year.  he stayed there for the rest of the season with Travis Green.  The next season he was back with the Canucks in Travis' first season.  He only spent the 1 season in the "A".    

[Lazurus]

1 hour ago, dpn1 said:

Jake didn't spend 2 years in Utica.  He got sent down after 10 games in his second year.  he stayed there for the rest of the season with Travis Green.  The next season he was back with the Canucks in Travis' first season.  He only spent the 1 season in the "A".    

Two shoulder injuries didn't help either, especially with pain killer usage (addictions?) rampant in the NHL as noted by Kesler.

Mis-managed is happening right now.

Jake should never have got to arbitration. Now everyone will pay for stupid mistakes.

[Lazurus]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:44 AM, Law of Goalies said:

Please enlighten me on how did he come in fat? 

Pain killers provided by the team

Edited October 12, 2020 by Lazurus

[Westcoasting]

3 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Pain killers provided by the team

Pain killers made him fat? Lol ok...

[Law of Goalies]

6 hours ago, Lazurus said:

Pain killers provided by the team

Lol OK, bro, you made my day, so funny

[Baggins]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:05 PM, EdgarM said:

I see you failed to add all of the stats while you are bashing Jake. I also like how you used a small sample of stats going with the 17 games or ,16 games for Jake, in the playoffs. Jake played the least amount of minutes on the team ahead of only Gaud and Rouss. 

If you look at the stats for the entire year , it paints a different picture. He was 4th on the team in hits and had 28 blocked shots ,which puts him in the average for the team. All while having ranked 20th on ATOI. I guess Green thought 19 other players should be playing ahead of Jake? 

So with ALL THIS ICE TIME he is getting you still want him to be scoring every game and playing like Motte who is way more involved in the game? 

I think your expectations are a little high for Jake and I bet if he was given the opportunity to play more regular minutes, you would see a different player. 

I still can't believe people over look the time Jake was put into the top 6(for only a few games I might add) and produced at about a point per game pace. This while Boeser replaced him on the third line and produced NOTHING! 

But yeah no one is the problem here except Jake, yeah OK. 

Why should he be "gifted" top six? Does he play with the consistency, intensity, or even effort of them? My problem with Jake is the tools are there. He just seems too lazy to use them with any consistency. When it comes to "offensive ice time" Jake was pretty close to Motte in the playoffs, with the advantage of PP time, and did considerably less. So yes, I make that comparison. Aren't the playoffs when players are supposed to "step up". Did Jake? 

 

Of our YOUNG players Jake is the only problem child I see. Missed targets in offseason fitness and inconsistent effort, He a lazy player. Not to mention the absolute stupidity of going clubbing before going into the bubble. Why reward that type of player? The coach isn't wasting his talent, he is.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Ironically, look at Motte, how hard he works and plays, and how he gets peanuts compared to what Virtanen is awarded. I agree there's lots of potential still for Virtanen, but if he played with half the gusto of Motte he could be a 30 goal scorer and serious threat.

 

Sadly, that energy and will seems to be the hardest thing to teach. Look at guys like Burrows and Gallagher, that's how I hoped Virtanen would play and that's how he was advertised. Don't think that will change, but his skill level can improve as he ages.

 

Let's all just hope something clicks and he has an off season to remember in the future, hopefully even the next one.

 

As much as I've always publically hated Virtanen being picked, I'm still patient that he can be a useful player for us. 

[Ray_Cathode]

5 hours ago, Baggins said:

Nobody has said Jake doesn't have scoring ability. He does. Scoring is only one part of the game though. How effective could he be if he put in the effort being asked of him? How much should the coach trust him when he doesn't know what kind of effort he'll get game to game or even shift to shift? If he scores a goal every 4th game (a 20 goal pace) what use is he the other 3 games? Look no further than Motte in the playoffs. He plays the way they've been trying to get Jake to play the past five years. Hard on the forecheck, hard on the backcheck and finishing checks. What Willie, and now Travis, have been asking of Jake for five years and both said it publicly repeatedly. It makes life harder for the opposition and creates scoring opportunities. Can you honestly say Jake plays that way? Can you say he putting in the effort game to game, shift to shift? If you can't then Jake hasn't jumped through hoops to earn ice time, he's coasting on his scoring. Offensive ice time in the playoffs Motte averaged 11:45 per game (0:02 is pp time) and Jake 11:15 per game (1:28 is pp time). Motte outscored Jake 4-2, outshot him 29-16, outhit him 61-36, and had 17 takeaways to Jakes 6. The way Motte plays leads to offensive opportunities. Jake's own lack of consistent effort is the reason he gets, bounced around, benched and scratched.

 

Motte led our forwards in blocked shots in the playoffs with 24. Now Motte plays on the PK so one would expect him to have more than Jakes measly 5. So lets look at top 6 players: Miller 18, Pearson 17, Horvat 15, Boeser 14, and Pettersson 12. Despite missing 9 games and being on the limp Toffoli had 4 blocked shots. The only other forwards with fewer blocked shots than Jake were MacEwen (6 games played) and Ferland (2 games played). Does that say anything about Jakes effort? Add this, both Pearson and Miller outhit Virtanen in the playoffs.

 

There's more to the game than just scoring goals. Ask Yzerman, Twice cut from Team Canada because scoring isn't enough. He would have continued scoring goals, but he never would have been the player and leader he became if that was enough on it's own. Yzerman was finally threatened with being traded from Detroit if he didn't change the way he played. The only person holding Jake back is Jake. He has all the tools to play the way he's been asked. With his size and speed he could be a force to reckon with and still score. He'd also be more effective those 3 games games he doesn't score. If he only had the desire to put in the effort. That's entirely on him not the coaching. If he's disinterested, as you say, trade him. Disinterested players that don't respond to coaching don't help you win. Miller was the same as Jake in NY. He viewed himself as an offensive player and that's the way he wanted to play. AV was his coach in NY. Another big meanie to young offensive players. His last season there he was 31st among forwards in blocked shots per 60 minutes. That's right, 31st, as the Rangers had 36 forwards play games that season. He had 60 giveaways to 34 takeaways. This last season here he had 36 giveaways to 52 takeaways. Getting traded changed his attitude to being coached. Finally listening and responding changed his game for the better and hasn't stopped him from scoring. And it only took two seasons in the bottom six in Tampa while being bounced around up and down the lines to become a better player. Amazing what an attitude change on the players part can do. But it also takes desire and commitment on the players part. That's when you "earn it".

I don't argue that Jake could be a better, consistent, more aggressive player. However, I think you overstate your case with regard to hitting. Over the course of the season, Jake had the second most hits per minute of any player on the team - and that includes your example, Miller.. Motte led the team by a considerable margin in that regard, but he is a much smaller, more maneuverable player than Jake. Could Jake hit more, sure, but whenever he does he gets benched for straying out of position - Green has to decide what the hell he wants Jake to be, and let Jake know, because right now he looks like a player who is tentative and uncertain. Now that Toffoli is gone, id we sign Jake and don't trade for anyone else, Jake will likely play on one of the top two lines - unless, of course, Green continues to deploy Eriksson (God only knows why) who pretty much had zero initiated hits all season, and only 12 goals compared to Jake's 18. However, there is an opportunity for the Canucks to bring on one or two of Bailey, MacEwen, or Lind (if we re=sign Leivo). Forcing Green's hand to play our young guys would not be a bad idea. Hopefully Sutter is moveable and Gaudette is signable. I don't see that boat anchor albatroll of a contract with Eriksson being moveable without the surrendering of a major asset. But who know, Benning was able to acquire Schmidt for a bargain price, but a massive cap hit - 18 million between Myers, Edler and Schmidt - a lot of bucks for an aging defence, non of whom are defensively distinguished. 

If Ferland is still hearing bells and the flutter of butterfly wings, perhaps that LTIR can gain us Tryamkin for the backend - who should be very effective now on the smaller NHL surface.

[Baggins]

4 minutes ago, Ray_Cathode said:

I don't argue that Jake could be a better, consistent, more aggressive player. However, I think you overstate your case with regard to hitting. Over the course of the season, Jake had the second most hits per minute of any player on the team - and that includes your example, Miller.. Motte led the team by a considerable margin in that regard, but he is a much smaller, more maneuverable player than Jake. Could Jake hit more, sure, but whenever he does he gets benched for straying out of position - Green has to decide what the hell he wants Jake to be, and let Jake know, because right now he looks like a player who is tentative and uncertain. Now that Toffoli is gone, id we sign Jake and don't trade for anyone else, Jake will likely play on one of the top two lines - unless, of course, Green continues to deploy Eriksson (God only knows why) who pretty much had zero initiated hits all season, and only 12 goals compared to Jake's 18. However, there is an opportunity for the Canucks to bring on one or two of Bailey, MacEwen, or Lind (if we re=sign Leivo). Forcing Green's hand to play our young guys would not be a bad idea. Hopefully Sutter is moveable and Gaudette is signable. I don't see that boat anchor albatroll of a contract with Eriksson being moveable without the surrendering of a major asset. But who know, Benning was able to acquire Schmidt for a bargain price, but a massive cap hit - 18 million between Myers, Edler and Schmidt - a lot of bucks for an aging defence, non of whom are defensively distinguished. 

If Ferland is still hearing bells and the flutter of butterfly wings, perhaps that LTIR can gain us Tryamkin for the backend - who should be very effective now on the smaller NHL surface.

Unfortunately Green wants Jake to be smarter. I'm not that's in the cards with Jake. There's a difference between chasing hits, which can put you out of position. and finishing checks where you're actually forcing turnovers and mistakes. It's the ability to recognize the difference.

Green hasn't had a problem playing the young guys that that earn it through hard work and responding to coaching. Jake is a five year vet now and he's still not responding to coaching. Even in the offseason with the fitness targets. Why would any coach reward him? You can see the difference with Jake from game to game. And here's an oddity, when he's engaged and playing hard, Green tends to give him more ice time. It's all about earning it. 

 

You seem to be of the opinion young players should be gifted there spot and ice time. The majority of coaches want to win games though. Their job rather depends on it. Even on a bad team the coach wants young players "playing the right way" so down the road when the team is better that young player is a solid contributor rather than trying to change bad habits years later. The longer you wait the harder it will be to break bad habits. The coaches job is to get the most out of the players the GM gives him. Jake could be a solid top six player if he just put the effort in and responded to the coaching. That's what frustrates me most. All the tools are there and Jake just seems too lazy to use them to full effect. I can see him as being expendable as a result. As the team improves you don't want players you don't know what you'll get from game to game.

[EdgarM]

1 hour ago, Baggins said:

Why should he be "gifted" top six? Does he play with the consistency, intensity, or even effort of them? My problem with Jake is the tools are there. He just seems too lazy to use them with any consistency. When it comes to "offensive ice time" Jake was pretty close to Motte in the playoffs, with the advantage of PP time, and did considerably less. So yes, I make that comparison. Aren't the playoffs when players are supposed to "step up". Did Jake? 

 

Of our YOUNG players Jake is the only problem child I see. Missed targets in offseason fitness and inconsistent effort, He a lazy player. Not to mention the absolute stupidity of going clubbing before going into the bubble. Why reward that type of player? The coach isn't wasting his talent, he is.

"Gifted"? You mean like our boy Ericksson being put in the top 6 when he brings nothing and I mean nothing to the top 6? Yes he still has a bit of defensive ability left and with that , he should be deployed in the bottom 6 where "Offensive" is a little less important. 

Motte's ATOI for the playoffs was 15:17 and Jake's was 11:16. For those who saw any significnt ice time in the playoffs, only Gaudette and Roussel seen less ice time then Jake. 

For what I seen of Jake when he first started in the NHL , and now, there definitely is a difference in his play. You see less consistency and less effort , I see a player who is held to a much higher standard then everyone else on the team by the coach and therefore treated differently. When he hit everything that moved and skated hard, he was critiqued and asked to be more responsible defensively. So instead of playing his game, he is being asked to be a 3rd or 4th line checker without even being tested with more offensive assignments. When he was put in those positions, out of neccesity, (i.e. injuries) Jake produced. Instead of being rewarded he was relegated back to the checking line. Jakes time playing in the top 6 has been very sporadic to just a few games, a few periods and sometimes even as little as a few shifts. Not enough time to see what he really could do if he was TRUSTED to play there on a consistant basis, but LE does?

Sitting him in the press box at the beginning of the playoffs with no apparent reason I don't know if I would come out flying and playing my butt off for the coach either. To me, it just seems he would be a much better performer if he was treated as a pro and not like he is the coaches kid playing in minor hockey. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by EdgarM

[Baggins]

17 hours ago, EdgarM said:

"Gifted"? You mean like our boy Ericksson being put in the top 6 when he brings nothing and I mean nothing to the top 6? Yes he still has a bit of defensive ability left and with that , he should be deployed in the bottom 6 where "Offensive" is a little less important. 

Motte's ATOI for the playoffs was 15:17 and Jake's was 11:16. For those who saw any significnt ice time in the playoffs, only Gaudette and Roussel seen less ice time then Jake. 

For what I seen of Jake when he first started in the NHL , and now, there definitely is a difference in his play. You see less consistency and less effort , I see a player who is held to a much higher standard then everyone else on the team by the coach and therefore treated differently. When he hit everything that moved and skated hard, he was critiqued and asked to be more responsible defensively. So instead of playing his game, he is being asked to be a 3rd or 4th line checker without even being tested with more offensive assignments. When he was put in those positions, out of neccesity, (i.e. injuries) Jake produced. Instead of being rewarded he was relegated back to the checking line. Jakes time playing in the top 6 has been very sporadic to just a few games, a few periods and sometimes even as little as a few shifts. Not enough time to see what he really could do if he was TRUSTED to play there on a consistant basis, but LE does?

Sitting him in the press box at the beginning of the playoffs with no apparent reason I don't know if I would come out flying and playing my butt off for the coach either. To me, it just seems he would be a much better performer if he was treated as a pro and not like he is the coaches kid playing in minor hockey. 

Eriksson was up and down the lineup and often a healthy scratch. Both during the season and the playoffs. But with him you know what you'll get from game to game. Btw, it was mentioned in the playoffs, after Toffoli was injured, that when Eriksson was on Bo's line shots for went up and shots against when down compared to the other replacements. Eriksson doesn't bring much offensively but he doesn't hurt a line.

 

The difference between Motte's TOTAL ice time and Jakes is Motte's PK time. Even strength plus PP (offensive ice time) there was little difference in the playoffs between the two  and Jake had PP time Motte didn't. as I've previously shown. If you want more ice time, or a bigger role, you need to make the most of the time you get. You need to show you deserve more. 

[EdgarM]

10 hours ago, Baggins said:

Eriksson was up and down the lineup and often a healthy scratch. Both during the season and the playoffs. But with him you know what you'll get from game to game. Btw, it was mentioned in the playoffs, after Toffoli was injured, that when Eriksson was on Bo's line shots for went up and shots against when down compared to the other replacements. Eriksson doesn't bring much offensively but he doesn't hurt a line.

 

The difference between Motte's TOTAL ice time and Jakes is Motte's PK time. Even strength plus PP (offensive ice time) there was little difference in the playoffs between the two  and Jake had PP time Motte didn't. as I've previously shown. If you want more ice time, or a bigger role, you need to make the most of the time you get. You need to show you deserve more. 

You can argue all you want about LE's usefulness in the top 6 but the bottom line is, when you are down a goal and you are looking for offense in your top 6, LE is not going to help you. When Pearson, Boes, EP or Bo are getting roughed up, LE is not going to help you one bit. When you are looking for a spark, or a well planned hit, LE is not going to help you. If you need a speedy winger to help with a team with a quick transition, LE is not going to help you. But you go ahead and keep telling yourself that LE is usefull anywhere in the line up but on the 3rd or 4th lines. 

Oh now we are going to change the story line and go on offensive time only? Yeah OK. 

And your last statement" If you want more ice time, or a bigger role, you need to make the most of the time you get. You need to show you deserve more. " is interesting considering Jake showed he could produce in the top 6 yet he was demoted back to the checking line when Boes, who produced nothing in the bottom six in that same time line, went back into the top 6. Its all nice in theory but like I said, Green has another agenda for Jake in which no other player on the team is treated the same. I won't even get into LE's showing that he "deserves more". 

[Ray_Cathode]

On 10/13/2020 at 12:15 PM, Baggins said:

Unfortunately Green wants Jake to be smarter. I'm not that's in the cards with Jake. There's a difference between chasing hits, which can put you out of position. and finishing checks where you're actually forcing turnovers and mistakes. It's the ability to recognize the difference.

Green hasn't had a problem playing the young guys that that earn it through hard work and responding to coaching. Jake is a five year vet now and he's still not responding to coaching. Even in the offseason with the fitness targets. Why would any coach reward him? You can see the difference with Jake from game to game. And here's an oddity, when he's engaged and playing hard, Green tends to give him more ice time. It's all about earning it. 

 

You seem to be of the opinion young players should be gifted there spot and ice time. The majority of coaches want to win games though. Their job rather depends on it. Even on a bad team the coach wants young players "playing the right way" so down the road when the team is better that young player is a solid contributor rather than trying to change bad habits years later. The longer you wait the harder it will be to break bad habits. The coaches job is to get the most out of the players the GM gives him. Jake could be a solid top six player if he just put the effort in and responded to the coaching. That's what frustrates me most. All the tools are there and Jake just seems too lazy to use them to full effect. I can see him as being expendable as a result. As the team improves you don't want players you don't know what you'll get from game to game.

I have often seen Jake go out and create a goal or make a great offensive play and then not see him hit the ice for the rest of the period = doesn't look like Green is coaching anything but uncertainty. Pat Quinn was a great coach because he adapted his system to the players he had, not take his players and ill fit them into a questionable system - the Green method. One thing kept us in our playoff run last year - our goaltenders - we spent the vast majority of our time running around in our own end and even when we got the puck, be unable to exit our zone without coughing up the puck, if not in our own end, then at mid ice. Our support for our fore-checkers in the offensive zone was abysmally bad as our players hardly ever supported the fore-check (which is hardly a system for causing good hit opportunities) which is why we had so few. 

[RowdyCanuck]

Hmmmm let's see when your captain calls you out in the press about a hit....then your coach tells you to easy up cause his hits can hurt people .....hmmmmm that was within his first two years in the nhl and we wonder why his taken steps backwards.....

and not to mention Jake never actually plays with a play making center.....( look at how well Jake played with petey) instead we stick him with sutter and beagle ha and you wonder why the kid doesn't tear it up ha 

not to forget  Jake played his heaviest game with DD watching his back and our team hasn't had that since DD retired so yes I would say this team has mismanaged Jake and I see people bring up the weight, let's not forget Willie told him to add so how can you blame the player for listening to the coach......

okay everyone says Jake has low hockey IQ, does anyone know how you help that?

you leave a player with the same line mates for atleast 20 games......burr learned what he had to do to compliment the Sedins and Jake could do that for petey and Miller but you got to give him a chance.....

 

[EdgarM]

2 hours ago, RowdyCanuck said:

Hmmmm let's see when your captain calls you out in the press about a hit....then your coach tells you to easy up cause his hits can hurt people .....hmmmmm that was within his first two years in the nhl and we wonder why his taken steps backwards.....

and not to mention Jake never actually plays with a play making center.....( look at how well Jake played with petey) instead we stick him with sutter and beagle ha and you wonder why the kid doesn't tear it up ha 

not to forget  Jake played his heaviest game with DD watching his back and our team hasn't had that since DD retired so yes I would say this team has mismanaged Jake and I see people bring up the weight, let's not forget Willie told him to add so how can you blame the player for listening to the coach......

okay everyone says Jake has low hockey IQ, does anyone know how you help that?

you leave a player with the same line mates for atleast 20 games......burr learned what he had to do to compliment the Sedins and Jake could do that for petey and Miller but you got to give him a chance.....

 

I am glad someone else sees how he is being mismanaged. He was touted as one of our young prospects but he has not been able to play through his "growing pains" like the rest. Instead its "oh you made a mistake? sit your a$$ on that bench until I say you can come out!" 

I fully agree, stick him out there playing a regular shift in the top 6 and let him sink or swim. After 20 games or so and there is no change? OK rethink the plan with him, but giving him a couple of shifts, periods and even a few games to assess what you have is useless. Would love to see what he could do sitting in front of the net on PP#1 or killing penalties.

We could say the same about Boeser, an unforgettable rookie season where he looked like the second coming of Bure and ever since then, he has been spotty and inconsistant since then. He has been bumped to the bottom 6 for a few games and then back into the top 6 he goes. Last year, he was promoted back into the top 6 AFTER HE PRODUCED NOTHING in the bottom 6. 

Not dissing Boes in any way I just think Green is treating some players one way and treating others different. 

I agree with the IQ thing, he has been told what to do almost every shift and I am sure he goes out thinking what does the coach want me to do now? I am sure it is in the back of his mind all of the time. Just leave him alone for a few games and see what he does. This is supposed to be young team which is letting the prospects develope so Green needs to let ALL of the prospects DEVELOPE!