The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. Canuck Veterans

[Kevin Biestra]

38 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I think perhaps you're underestimating both Redden and Eriksson. Just because they are overpaid does not mean they aren't good enough for the NHL. Eriksson (at times) has proven he's more than a 13th forward. He has his moments of good. He's defensively responsible and good on the pk.

 

Your post, to me, proves my point in that, right now, his wage makes people dislike him, perhaps to the point where they can't see anything positive with him because he's cost us so much, and I get that. But I do believe that people would have a different tune if that were not the case. It's just people have a hard time seeing the good at the moment when there's so much bad associated with it.

 

How am I underrating Eriksson?  When 12 forwards were healthy in the later playoffs, he was sitting in the press box when salary was no consideration at all.  13th on the depth chart.

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

How am I underrating Eriksson?  When 12 forwards were healthy in the later playoffs, he was sitting in the press box when salary was no consideration at all.  13th on the depth chart.

That was the case sometimes, but not all the time. Also, this is because of our team makeup (we are in good shape with forwards) more than it is about Eriksson who, on other teams, likely is in the lineup more.

 

There were literally moments when Eriksson was actually really good to the point where he'd be one of the better forwards on a night. Unfortunately, he severely lacked consistency to keep doing that.

 

So, while it's easy to simply say "he was out of the lineup a lot", it's not really telling the full story which I think has also contributed to a lot of people underestimating.

Edited December 4, 2020 by The Lock

[Kevin Biestra]

2 hours ago, The Lock said:

That was the case sometimes, but not all the time. Also, this is because of our team makeup (we are in good shape with forwards) more than it is about Eriksson who, on other teams, likely is in the lineup more.

 

There were literally moments when Eriksson was actually really good to the point where he'd be one of the better forwards on a night. Unfortunately, he severely lacked consistency to keep doing that.

 

So, while it's easy to simply say "he was out of the lineup a lot", it's not really telling the full story which I think has also contributed to a lot of people underestimating.

 

I think it's easy to hyperbolize and say Eriksson is the worst player, he couldn't even make the ECHL, etc.  It's also kind of tempting to go in the other direction and defend him excessively...you'd be happy to have him at half the salary, he's a good NHLer just not worth $6M, etc.

 

Like I said, when salary was no concern he was in the press box.  I think he's somewhere between an 11th forward and an AHLer.  To me that's worth the league minimum to maybe $1.4M.

[Laoag]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:04 PM, Petey_BOI said:

I was looking at Edler's stats and noticed his raw stats were very good. so i decided i would compare him with other veterans over the age of 33 along with beagle and LE. Edlers stats were so impressive i decided to compare him with the entire league.

 

 

 

The Good: Alex Edler

Edler was 1st among the defenceman over the age 33 with 1.441 ESP/60 First in in PPP/60 with 5.967, 1st in blocked shots, 5th in hits, 6th in SH TOI and 10th in PP TOI and 1st in PIM

 

Ranking against the entire league with at least a minute of PP TOI he was 10th in the league for PPP/60 (quinn Hughes was 12th and schmidt was 5th) and for players that played over 14 minutes a game he was 13th in ESP/60 (quinn hughes was 16th schmidt was 31st) 3rd in BS, 39th in hits and third in minor PIM. I Wonder if he's working on his his zone exit's this offseason  and not being such a dirty player lol.

 

 

The Bad. Jay Beagle

i decided to compare Beagle with the other 4th liner Veterans brad richardson and nate thompson.

his puck possesion metrics are terrible, but its the way hes utilized and not only because of his puck prowess. .of the 4th liners he is the worst of the bunch offensively and defensively, who both signed for less than a million this year. his point totals are slipping every year and he is far from his selke nominated 2016-2017 season. on top of that his PIM went up 150% when eveyrone else on the teams went down, thats another sign the game may be getting away from him.I wished he would retire because there were much better options in free agency. 2 more year's 

 

 

 

The Ugly: Loui erikkson

ranks 34th out of the 40 veteran forwards in ESP/60 once you factor out empty net points. without empty net points he is the lowest scoring winger who played over 22 games. he has the third lowest blocked shots and the lowest in hits if you factor in games played. the only positive is his shorthanded time is ranked third among the 40. with schaller gone i sure hope louie eriksson doesn't makes the team because of his usefullness while shorthanded. Hoglander anyone?

 

Between Schmidt, Hughes, Edler and Myers we will have some awesome options on the powerplay and Edler and Schmidt will be great on the PK. Maybe Edler can teach LE and Beagle how turn around thier game

Beagle is fine. cherry picking stats isn't worthy of a whole thread...

 

[The Lock]

52 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think it's easy to hyperbolize and say Eriksson is the worst player, he couldn't even make the ECHL, etc.  It's also kind of tempting to go in the other direction and defend him excessively...you'd be happy to have him at half the salary, he's a good NHLer just not worth $6M, etc.

 

Like I said, when salary was no concern he was in the press box.  I think he's somewhere between an 11th forward and an AHLer.  To me that's worth the league minimum to maybe $1.4M.

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding my statement. In no way am I even stating at half the salary I'd be happy. Of course one could defend him excessively, but I don't think I'm doing that at all here. I'm looking at things from both perspectives and basing things on that.

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, The Lock said:

I think perhaps you're misunderstanding my statement. In no way am I even stating at half the salary I'd be happy. Of course one could defend him excessively, but I don't think I'm doing that at all here. I'm looking at things from both perspectives and basing things on that.

 

I think we're just disagreeing on where Loui is at in his career.  You seem to think he's a clear NHLer at this point if I understand right, while I think he's a fringe NHLer.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Kevin Biestra

[The Lock]

54 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I think we're just disagreeing on where Loui is at in his career.  You seem to think he's a clear NHLer at this point is I understand right, while I think he's a fringe NHLer.

Sounds about right. Agree to disagree perhaps.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 hours ago, Laoag said:

Beagle is fine. cherry picking stats isn't worthy of a whole thread...

 

of the 4th line pk specialist forwards signed this year, there was about ten, beagle is at the bottom in scoring and at the bottom in preventing goals on the pk. he is highest in faceoffs though.

 

it took me about 6 hours to cherry pick those stats, im pretty sure there is value, and by how many people responded, i would say you are wrong

 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Petey_BOI

[canucklehead44]

8 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

of the 4th line pk specialist forwards signed this year, there was about ten, beagle is at the bottom in scoring and at the bottom in preventing goals on the pk. he is highest in faceoffs though.

 

it took me about 6 hours to cherry pick those stats, im pretty sure there is value, and by how many people responded, i would say you are wrong

 

 

You didn’t cherry pick - his only impressive stat is faceoffs and he wasn’t awful on the PK (still in the bottom 1/3 I believe so still pretty bad).  Seems like a character guy but really only worth about $800k as a depth forward. 

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 minute ago, canucklehead44 said:

You didn’t cherry pick - his only impressive stat is faceoffs and he wasn’t awful on the PK (still in the bottom 1/3 I believe so still pretty bad).  Seems like a character guy but really only worth about $800k as a depth forward. 

and add in the fact his offense has been dropping by 25 percent year after year for the last 4 years. and in the playoffs his  offensive production dropped by 80% despite being deployed in the offensive zone with motte. motte's offensive numbers exploded, yet beagles continued to drop. his offensive production has dropped to his totals of when he was a 13th forward. his PIM per game were at an all time high, and were near exactly the same in the playoffs. the previous 5 seasons his PIM were as consistent as his scoring, and then this year they spike jumping 57%. i wouldnt dought if he becomes a scratch if he continues to decline.  there are only 2 4th line centers in the league that are his age the rest are younger

[Bad_BOI_pete]

7 hours ago, The Lock said:

That was the case sometimes, but not all the time. Also, this is because of our team makeup (we are in good shape with forwards) more than it is about Eriksson who, on other teams, likely is in the lineup more.

 

There were literally moments when Eriksson was actually really good to the point where he'd be one of the better forwards on a night. Unfortunately, he severely lacked consistency to keep doing that.

 

So, while it's easy to simply say "he was out of the lineup a lot", it's not really telling the full story which I think has also contributed to a lot of people underestimating.

before LE got paired with horvat he had zero points in 14 games. he then showed great success with horvat putting up 10 points in 18 games,  his next 27 games including the playoffs he had 3 points.

 

Pearson before LE was paired with him had 13 points in 26 games, he then had great succes with LE his next 24 games  he  put  up  26 points

his next  29 games including the playoffs he had 12 points

 

Horvat before  le was paired with him had 19 points in 26 games,  he then had great success with LE putting up 24  points in 25 games, his next 29 games including the playoffs he had 17 points in 29 games

 

my best guess as to why thier point totals dropped the last 29 games was because of game footage, teams were able to neutralize that lines success by neutralizing what LE brought to that line.  lets not also forget that half of LE points were with the goalie pulled. there was a reason he was scratched 1st game of the playoffs and the last 6. he is quite literally a 13th forward on our team, and most likely will not be able to crack the lineup this year if hoglander makes the team.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Petey_BOI

[Devron]

Beagle passes the eye test for me. It’s the way he’s used that bring down his metrics imo. He’s always on the defensive side of the ice and it’s the defensive structure we use when the other team has the offensive momentum. I don’t know what it’s called but our team collapses and we don’t chase the puck. We wait for a mistake while maintaining defensive positioning. It’s why he and the team blocks a lot of shots. You put your comparable players in beagles skates with the our team and the way it is coached and they would have similar metrics  

[Laoag]

On 12/4/2020 at 8:56 PM, Devron44 said:

Beagle passes the eye test for me. It’s the way he’s used that bring down his metrics imo. He’s always on the defensive side of the ice and it’s the defensive structure we use when the other team has the offensive momentum. I don’t know what it’s called but our team collapses and we don’t chase the puck. We wait for a mistake while maintaining defensive positioning. It’s why he and the team blocks a lot of shots. You put your comparable players in beagles skates with the our team and the way it is coached and they would have similar metrics  

PFFFFT no way, didn't you see what op wrote? he spent 6 hours looking for those stats... HE CANNOT BE WRONG!

kidding aside, you're actually the one who is right. Beagle Is a Stanley cup winner and does what his coaches ask. Stats only mean something if you know the context, something people miss. way too many variables in hockey to look at stats and say "this is the definitive answer". Advances stats are useful, but they need to be understood within a balance.

Edler is fine (even though everyone hated him for some reason a couple seasons ago)
Beagle is fine




Loui, Loui, Loui.....

[Gurn]

So if Loui gets replaced by  Conner McDavid, does Loui numbers against replacement go down?

[canucklehead44]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:56 PM, Devron44 said:

Beagle passes the eye test for me. It’s the way he’s used that bring down his metrics imo. He’s always on the defensive side of the ice and it’s the defensive structure we use when the other team has the offensive momentum. I don’t know what it’s called but our team collapses and we don’t chase the puck. We wait for a mistake while maintaining defensive positioning. It’s why he and the team blocks a lot of shots. You put your comparable players in beagles skates with the our team and the way it is coached and they would have similar metrics  

He gets a lot of defensive zone starts but doesn’t play against particularly difficult competition. He works hard but as a guy who barely had enough talent to play on the NHL his age is now catching up with him and he is getting exposed defensively. For $750k I wouldn’t mind him on the roster - he can kill penalties, win faceoffs, and is a good team guy but at 3 million he is a huge liability.

[erkayloomeh]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:15 PM, The Lock said:

I was going to say I'd much much MUCH rather have Brad Richardson on the team, and I still kind of would, but I did have to stop and think about it. Eriksson's not bad to the point where he shouldn't have an NHL gig still. In fact, if he had a 3rd/4th line salary, I bet the tune people would have here would be completely different. He's quite good in his own end and really can help with 3rd/4th line duties. It's only his contract that makes him look bad because he's grossly overpaid of what he delivers on.

 

Basically, at least he's not.... Wade Redden or something... lol

I think if LE were a Ufa he couldn't get a job at the league minimum. 

[oldnews]

What a mess.

 

Judging a player like Beagle - who handles 77% defensive zone starts - on production - or a single (misnamed) 'possession metric taken out of context - indicates an ironic lack of understanding of the game - and, ironically, 'advanced stats' as well

 

Have no idea where the OP gets the impression that players like Beagle and Motte were being "deployed in the offensive zone in the playoffs" - but that is just plain false.

 

Beagle had the lowest ozone starts of any Canuck regular in the playoffs, period.   And in spite of that - was a plus 2 5on5 in the playoffs - while handling the hardest minutes on the team, against a few of the best, deepest teams in the NHL.  Absurd to suggest that he helped his team in 2016, but is not capable of doing so in the present.  He and Motte were unreal - you can complain that they did not provide enough secondary scoring (if you're a typical production or corsi-gazer) - however that is general ignorance of their role and how effective they were.  If they underproduced, and yet outproduced their opponents, think about how stifling they actually were defensively against some very challenging matchups.  Anytime a pair of shutdown, 4th line forwards like this can outproduce the opponents 5on5 while playing up ice heavily tilted against them, if you don't understand the value in that you simply don't understand the game.

Too much in here to engage with, but wadr, it aint particularly 'advanced' analysis.

[Fred65]

29 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What a mess.

 

Judging a player like Beagle - who handles 77% defensive zone starts - on production - or a single (misnamed) 'possession metric taken out of context - indicates an ironic lack of understanding of the game - and, ironically, 'advanced stats' as well

 

Have no idea where the OP gets the impression that players like Beagle and Motte were being "deployed in the offensive zone in the playoffs" - but that is just plain false.

 

 

All of that is true, but .... Others could maybe do the same and at a lessor cost. Currently he bring his skills but those skills are not exclusive to Beagle and our Cap Space is a mess. You need players such as Beagle you just can't afford for him to be paid as much  ?? Motte is a good journeyman player and is paid accordingly

Edited December 27, 2020 by Fred65

[Russ]

On 12/2/2020 at 3:19 PM, canucklehead44 said:

Eriksson lacks offensive skill and doesn't show up on the score sheet for other box stats like hits, blocked shots etc. There is a reason why however Green, Horvat etc says he does the "little things well", sparking his nickname little things or little thinger. 

First - Pearson and Horvat performed much better with Eriksson on their line - this has been talked about and reported on several times. He is also a good penalty killer. This article from the hockey writers goes into great detail into his game: https://thehockeywriters.com/canucks-loui-eriksson-black-ace/

From an entertainment value he is terrible to watch and is a dead fish with the puck on his stick. That said he is a very useful defensive player and penalty killer. Pearson and Horvat are fantastic offensively but are awful defensively. Eriksson can take some of that defensive heavy lifting off their plate and allow Pearson & Horvat to drive offence. 

 

Jay Beagle is well loved on these boards because he is a hardworking vet who wins faceoffs and kills penalties but unfortunately he terrible. If Sutter moved into the 4C role I would much rather have Eriksson in the lineup over Beagle. 

 

If they could keep Beagle off the ice 5v5 and only use him for PK and PK faceoffs and if he only cost a mill it would be good.  To bad it was a 3x4 contract we got him for.

[EdgarM]

On 12/2/2020 at 1:04 PM, Petey_BOI said:

I was looking at Edler's stats and noticed his raw stats were very good. so i decided i would compare him with other veterans over the age of 33 along with beagle and LE. Edlers stats were so impressive i decided to compare him with the entire league.

 

 

 

The Good: Alex Edler

Edler was 1st among the defenceman over the age 33 with 1.441 ESP/60 First in in PPP/60 with 5.967, 1st in blocked shots, 5th in hits, 6th in SH TOI and 10th in PP TOI and 1st in PIM

 

Ranking against the entire league with at least a minute of PP TOI he was 10th in the league for PPP/60 (quinn Hughes was 12th and schmidt was 5th) and for players that played over 14 minutes a game he was 13th in ESP/60 (quinn hughes was 16th schmidt was 31st) 3rd in BS, 39th in hits and third in minor PIM. I Wonder if he's working on his his zone exit's this offseason  and not being such a dirty player lol.

 

 

The Bad. Jay Beagle

i decided to compare Beagle with the other 4th liner Veterans brad richardson and nate thompson.

his puck possesion metrics are terrible, but its the way hes utilized and not only because of his puck prowess. .of the 4th liners he is the worst of the bunch offensively and defensively, who both signed for less than a million this year. his point totals are slipping every year and he is far from his selke nominated 2016-2017 season. on top of that his PIM went up 150% when eveyrone else on the teams went down, thats another sign the game may be getting away from him.I wished he would retire because there were much better options in free agency. 2 more year's 

 

 

 

The Ugly: Loui erikkson

ranks 34th out of the 40 veteran forwards in ESP/60 once you factor out empty net points. without empty net points he is the lowest scoring winger who played over 22 games. he has the third lowest blocked shots and the lowest in hits if you factor in games played. the only positive is his shorthanded time is ranked third among the 40. with schaller gone i sure hope louie eriksson doesn't makes the team because of his usefullness while shorthanded. Hoglander anyone?

 

Between Schmidt, Hughes, Edler and Myers we will have some awesome options on the powerplay and Edler and Schmidt will be great on the PK. Maybe Edler can teach LE and Beagle how turn around thier game

Somebody better remind Green this is not stats that would generally earn a player a spot in the Top 6 on an NHL team kay?