Provost Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 24 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: I think you'd want the guy paired with Hughes to be your top penalty killer, so they should be playing the same amount of minutes. Hughes's ideal partner would also be out there in the last 5 minutes of a game protecting a lead. Guys like Cernak and Mayfield are playing 22-24 minutes a night with no PP time. That's the type of Dman we want paired with Hughes. Why does his partner have to be a key PKer? That just adds complexity it seems, I don’t think I am following your logic. Sure it is great to get a top pairing guy… but Pk has two defencemen on it and PP (in our system) has one. If Hughes’ partner is our top PKer he will be doing that with a different partner as Hughes won’t be on the PK. That means mixing up D pairings before and after PKs because one guy in teo different pairings was just in the ice but the other guy wasn’t. It would be simpler to have a dedicated main PK pairing in my opinion. That keeps them playing with the same partner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, mll said: Tampa has no reason to trade him. Cooper says he's a star for them. Brisebois already last off-season said he never considered trading him. that's fine - then Foote is exposed. and Savard is expiring. So we can pick their bones one way or another. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alflives said: Na. Hughes is fabulous. He holds the record for playoff points by a rookie D. That's a guy who can definitely play, especially in the hardest games. Look at the differences in Hughes' two seasons. Rookie playing with Tanev - the greatest thing since sliced bread. Already put on many shortlists as one of the greatest seasons by a Canuck defenseman ever (fairly premature, obviously, but still, that was the perception). Sophomore season playing with a rusty, then injured Hamonic and an off-side, 7th man Jordie Benn. Ermagerd, hit the panic buttons - look what Hughes looks like when he's exposed (and further, it isn't that simple - he was also playing with forward groups that had a majority of replacement, waiver wire, AHL callups and prospects in their lineup down the stretch / - with no NHL bottom six centers....) A horrible start - and a horrible finish to the season - that went well beyond Hughes. One-liner 'comparisons' to a player like Makar is relatively pointless - as is any 'comparison' failing to mention a whole lot of variables/context - ie some as simple as the fact that Makar plays with guys like Toews and Graves... Edited June 14, 2021 by oldnews 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 (edited) fk lol Edited June 14, 2021 by oldnews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 2 hours ago, oldnews said: Hard pass on Hamilton. Have said it many times, so gonna keep it brief/Cole's notes here - but simply not a good fit for us. What 'we' need is the guy that has been partnered with Hamilton, not 'Dougie'. Chara Giordano Slavin We don't have that player - and if we did, we'd need that player to partner with Hughes. Hamilton = no thanks. Good player, but also one of the more inflated players throughout his career imo. Just not interested - makes nowhere near enough sense. Side note: teams should avoid getting sucked into this ploy imo. 'Wise' move for Carolina perhaps - attempting to extract an expiring return - like they did out of Edmundson....but if I'm one of the teams 'negotiating' in the present, I'm talking free agency with him - what would be offered after he expires, not catering to Carolina's needs - who are hedging - and no doubt expect to get more out of this than they did Edmundson's rights. I'd call their bluff - and recommend they go ahead and re-sign him....The expansion draft complication imo 'should' preclude them getting away with this. Some team might get sucked in / that would not be my team if it were up to me. Hamilton would be/'should be' a hard pass for the Canucks imo. to be fair to Dougie, he's been good away from Slavin too: https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20202021&thruseason=20202021&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=CAR&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2021-01-13&td=2021-05-19&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8476958&p2=8476462&p3=0&p4=0&p5=0 and Gio: https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20172018&thruseason=20172018&stype=2&sit=5v5&score=all&rate=n&team=CGY&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2017-10-04&td=2020-04-04&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8476462&p2=8470966&p3=0&p4=0&p5=0 but how would he do with a rookie Juolevi? likely not so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 16 minutes ago, Provost said: Why does his partner have to be a key PKer? That just adds complexity it seems, I don’t think I am following your logic. Sure it is great to get a top pairing guy… but Pk has two defencemen on it and PP (in our system) has one. If Hughes’ partner is our top PKer he will be doing that with a different partner as Hughes won’t be on the PK. That means mixing up D pairings before and after PKs because one guy in teo different pairings was just in the ice but the other guy wasn’t. It would be simpler to have a dedicated main PK pairing in my opinion. That keeps them playing with the same partner. Looking at the roster I don't think either Schmidt or Myers should be on the top pairing killing penalties so if we are going to get a partner for Hughes then that guy would have to be the top pairing guy on the PK. You don't have to have two players playing together as a unit and also have them as your #1 PK unit. Mayfied and Pelech are the top pairing PK unit for the Islanders, but Mayfield plays with Leddy and Pelech plays with Pulock. Yes if Hughes's partner is playing the PK without Hughes then they would in essence play the same amount of minutes, just like Leddy and Mayfield play the same amount of minutes while Leddy runs the PP and Mayfield kills penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 15 minutes ago, oldnews said: Look at the differences in Hughes' two seasons. Rookie playing with Tanev - the greatest thing since sliced bread. Already put on many shortlists as one of the greatest seasons by a Canuck defenseman ever (fairly premature, obviously, but still, that was the perception). Sophomore season playing with a rusty, then injured Hamonic and an off-side, 7th man Jordie Benn. Ermagerd, hit the panic buttons - look what Hughes looks like when he's exposed (and further, it isn't that simple - he was also playing with forward groups that had a majority of replacement, waiver wire, AHL callups and prospects in their lineup down the stretch / - with no NHL bottom six centers....) A horrible start - and a horrible finish to the season - that went well beyond Hughes. One-liner 'comparisons' to a player like Makar is relatively pointless - as is any 'comparison' failing to mention a whole lot of variables/context - ie some as simple as the fact that Makar plays with guys like Toews and Graves... Yeah Hughes was a -10 playing with Tanev in his rookie season but then shot up to -24 playing with Hamonic and Benn. So the partner he plays with does make a huge difference. If you partner Hughes with Cernak or Mayfield he may even become a + player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dats hockey Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said: Playing on a worse team doesnt necessarily change the fundamentals of a player though. It might impact their results since hockey is, of course, a team game. But elite players are still elite. People constantly dismiss elite level players on other teams. While simultaneously over rating Canucks players. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Hughes is phenomenal and gifted and still growing his game. And Hughes and Makar situations are completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 45 minutes ago, oldnews said: I think there are some good options. Larsson is solid - I've always liked him as a player (and he's better than the typical surface 'analytics' take would suggest imo. The team doesn't necessarily have to limit itself to ideal Hughes' parnters imo although players like this might work (would have to 'test' any pairing in the end) - they can continue to look for a younger guy (acquire or draft) while still becoming harder to play against and adding hard minutes/pk to their blueline. David Savard - likewise. Stephen Johns if healthy. I really like Brandon Montour but probably not the right type of fit. Hakanpaa, Ceci, (Hamonic), Bogosian, Schenn - some good options that you might not pencil into your top 4 but who could nevertheless round out a group nicely. If you forego the higher end of the scale - there's still the potential trade market - which might be a bit 'lubricated' by the expansion draft.....Mayfield, Foote, Pesce, Cernak, (or 'retool' - Ristolainen)....? I think Stephen Johns just retired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dats hockey said: I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here. Hughes is phenomenal and gifted and still growing his game. And Hughes and Makar situations are completely different. Makar is phenomenal and gifted too. More so than Hughes especially on the defensive side of the puck. Dismissing Makar because of the team he plays for and minimizing his ability as a player is just a standard cdc move to somehow put Hughes in the same league as him. Last season clearly showed how much Makar pulled ahead as a more well rounded D. That doesnt mean I think Hughes is garbage, I dont. He is a very promising young player. He just isnt at the same level of progression as Makar. Makar isalso still improving and progressing as a player. You make it sound like he is a 30 year old vet who has peaked. Edited June 14, 2021 by wallstreetamigo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 36 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: Not sure how much you watch those other guys play but both Makar and Heiskanen are better defensively than Hughes at this point and are improving still. And they still provide offense too not at the expense of their defensive play. We are lucky to have Hughes, no doubt about. i have never said otherwise. He can and will get better defensively. But his lack of size, physical challenges, and (currently) sub par defensive game are all concerns about his ability to be more thanan offensive/pp specialist type. He has alot of work to do. And so do the coaches in building a defensive structure that takes advantage of his strengths rather than magnifying his weaknesses. Sorry to disagree but I would take Dahlin over Hughes long term. Its closer than it probably should be considering their draft positions though. Makar and Heiskanen have better fundamentals when it comes to the defensive side of the game. Hughes still needs to get there. Those two also have better playing partners which help as well. Benning needs to get a top pairing defensive Dman for Hughes, that should be his first priority this offseason. Agreed on Dahlin. When he is fully grown he will be the size of Ohlund with much better mobility and a better skillset. I think Dahlin wins the Norris trophy multiple times in his career. Hopefully he gets out of Buffalo soon so he can maximize his potential in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dats hockey Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 10 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: Makar is phenomenal and gifted too. More so than Hughes especially on the defensive side of the puck. Dismissing Makar because of the team he plays for and minimizing his ability as a player is just a standard cdc move to somehow put Hughes in the same league as him. Last season clearly showed how much Makar pulled ahead as a more well rounded D. That doesnt mean I think Hughes is garbage, I dont. He is a very promising young player. He just isnt at the same level of progression as Makar. Makar isalso still improving and progressing as a player. You make it sound like he is a 30 year old vet who has peaked. My guy I was disputing the argument that Makar was far better than Hughes and put them more neck and neck. And than pointed out of course Makar stats look pretty look at his team compared to Hughes…. Not sure how you came that conclusion but it’s start to seem like you didn’t even read what I put… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Elias Pettersson said: Makar and Heiskanen have better fundamentals when it comes to the defensive side of the game. Hughes still needs to get there. Those two also have better playing partners which help as well. Benning needs to get a top pairing defensive Dman for Hughes, that should be his first priority this offseason. Agreed on Dahlin. When he is fully grown he will be the size of Ohlund with much better mobility and a better skillset. I think Dahlin wins the Norris trophy multiple times in his career. Hopefully he gets out of Buffalo soon so he can maximize his potential in the NHL. This is all I am saying. And I agree on all points. People seem to be saying I think Hughes is garbage. I dont. The black or white approach isnt where I come from. Makar and Heiskanen at this point can be progressing and far more well rounded and better overall players than Hughes without it meaning Hughes is garbage or can never improve. Those things arent mutually exclusive. Dahlin is getting dragged down being in Buffalo for sure. But people on here are dragging down his potential for no other reason than because they think it builds up Hughes. Same with Makar, etc. It doesnt change anything about Hughes deficienceies to try to minimize other dmen. They all have their weaknesses too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Just now, Dats hockey said: My guy I was disputing the argument that Makar was far better than Hughes and put them more neck and neck. And than pointed out of course Makar stats look pretty look at his team compared to Hughes…. Not sure how you came that conclusion but it’s start to seem like you didn’t even read what I put… My point is they arent neck and neck. Not even close. And if they played for opposite teams they still wouldnt be. Makar has really improved in both zones. Hughes has not yet. He regressed defensively this past season actually. Both are good young players and will get better. But Makar - at this point - is quite clearly the superior dman and its not as close as people want to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Provost Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 27 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said: Looking at the roster I don't think either Schmidt or Myers should be on the top pairing killing penalties so if we are going to get a partner for Hughes then that guy would have to be the top pairing guy on the PK. You don't have to have two players playing together as a unit and also have them as your #1 PK unit. Mayfied and Pelech are the top pairing PK unit for the Islanders, but Mayfield plays with Leddy and Pelech plays with Pulock. Yes if Hughes's partner is playing the PK without Hughes then they would in essence play the same amount of minutes, just like Leddy and Mayfield play the same amount of minutes while Leddy runs the PP and Mayfield kills penalties. Sure it could be... but I don't see any advantage like you mentioned with it being better for it to be the partner for Hughes. We likely have a built in partner for Hughes in Hamonic who should be under market value. We don't particularly need to get a 25+ minute a night top pairing D who also plays all the PK... they are just hard to come by. If we get the top pairing PKer... he still needs to have a partner to play with and looking at our roster that is either Myers or Schmidt right now... so how does that get us ahead? The other guys I mentioned in Zadorov and Ristolainen are "relatively" cheap guys who are possibly available and would be an immediate upgrade on PK.... both Schmidt and Myers are competent PKers, but could certainly stand to be improved a lot on. Unless we get two replacements we can't get them both off the PK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 6 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said: I wonder if TO tries to trade Nylander for Dougie? Seth Jones I can see it. That's pretty steep for Hamilton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallstreetamigo Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 52 minutes ago, oldnews said: Look at the differences in Hughes' two seasons. Rookie playing with Tanev - the greatest thing since sliced bread. Already put on many shortlists as one of the greatest seasons by a Canuck defenseman ever (fairly premature, obviously, but still, that was the perception). Sophomore season playing with a rusty, then injured Hamonic and an off-side, 7th man Jordie Benn. Ermagerd, hit the panic buttons - look what Hughes looks like when he's exposed (and further, it isn't that simple - he was also playing with forward groups that had a majority of replacement, waiver wire, AHL callups and prospects in their lineup down the stretch / - with no NHL bottom six centers....) A horrible start - and a horrible finish to the season - that went well beyond Hughes. One-liner 'comparisons' to a player like Makar is relatively pointless - as is any 'comparison' failing to mention a whole lot of variables/context - ie some as simple as the fact that Makar plays with guys like Toews and Graves... Not sure anyone is actually hitting the panic button on Hughes. I know I am not. He will improve as time goes on and circumstances change. No one should really be worried about him or giving up on him. People suggested they would trade Hughes for Makar. Some agreed, others said they are neck and neck as players. No matter what the"context" is, its just not true that they are at this point. Could they be if Hughes can improve? Of course. But if Colorado offered Makar for Hughes straight up I take the deal all day every day right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aladeen Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 17 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said: This is all I am saying. And I agree on all points. People seem to be saying I think Hughes is garbage. I dont. The black or white approach isnt where I come from. Makar and Heiskanen at this point can be progressing and far more well rounded and better overall players than Hughes without it meaning Hughes is garbage or can never improve. Those things arent mutually exclusive. Dahlin is getting dragged down being in Buffalo for sure. But people on here are dragging down his potential for no other reason than because they think it builds up Hughes. Same with Makar, etc. It doesnt change anything about Hughes deficienceies to try to minimize other dmen. They all have their weaknesses too. How come being on an inferior team excuses away Dahlin's shortcomings but Hughes' defensive woes are all on him? Dahlin being dragged down by buffalo but Hughes dragging down Vancouver? Wut? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 1 minute ago, Ghostsof1915 said: Seth Jones I can see it. That's pretty steep for Hamilton. fits Dubies possession scheme though doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted June 14, 2021 Share Posted June 14, 2021 Just now, Jimmy McGill said: fits Dubies possession scheme though doesn't it? Sadly that is true. And Steve Dangle will probably make tons of Youtube videos how Toronto is so much deeper on defence now.... LOL. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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