Are we witnessing the greatest assembly of incompatible Canucks players in team history?

[Baggins]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

I mean it's not far away. Game number 12 coming up. 

Yup. Half way there. But I did include the words "at least". 

[alt kilgore]

Maybe I should start a new OP, but too many Benning threads already.

 

Just an observation, now looking back at JB's tenure.

Everyone had his Modus Operendi pegged as an old school, build through the draft, kind of guy.  And he himself sealed that description because of A. His past expertise was drafting, and B. He so much as stated it when he came in. Myself and I think many others, braced themselves for big changes.  There was even talk of asking the Sedins to wave their no trade clause. And if they did, maybe Edler would etc. 

 

But I was listening to a hockey podcast the other day where they were discussing how the Vegas Knights are always in on every single bidding war for any available top player.  Everything is on the table. First rounders included.  Not the typical MO of an expansion team's first years. In fact it flies in the face of logic in how to build a sustainable franchise.  They load up for the present, as much as they can, every season, and worry about the future when it comes.  Perhaps the thinking is that they will go all out until they are quite literally forced into building a team from the bottom up. At which point they will suck badly, and will have traded most higher picks/prospects away and so will have to rebuild under those conditions, which will mean a more painful long rebuild.  But that is all in some foggy future.  That is the gamble they are willing to take.  As long as they keep in contention, they could win a Cup before that has to happen. Before it all catches up to them. And I suppose, some of those Cup winning players, would have good value to trade to re-stock the cupboards.

 

And it dawned on me that this sounds like Benning's philosophy since he came here.  In spite of fan and media assumptions.  And/or it was the Aquilinis philosophy, and they made sure the new GM was on board with that.  But either way, Benning accepted that. The buck stops with him.

 

Of course completely different circumstances for the two teams.  But similar in that both teams were composed of veteran players with a mix of a few very good players still, and a lot of good players but that were past their prime or were of more average ability.

 

JB is a gambler. The way he talks so carefully and conservatively, has fooled us all.  The thing is, the gambles may have worked.  LE COULD have turned out being the long lost third twin. Garrison COULD have become that long sought stalwart on the back end. Virtanen COULD have grabbed the opportunity to be a home town hero. Sutter COULD have been that foundational center worth what his contract was.   .....on and on.... Vey, Gagner....  so many that just did not develop like Benning hoped for when he sacrificed those picks and prospects through the years. 

 

And at the same time giving up on spots for some prospects whom the team took time and money developing for this latest shiny bestest team ever made up of players other teams were okay trading away.  And when those contracts are up (or before), and CDC is shouting for their heads, those prospects we gave up for them will be entering their prime years.  Having in-house developed support players would be invaluable when Petey and Quinn are even better in a couple of years. Oh well.

 

In some ways I appreciate Jim for not being afraid to gamble.  I want a bit of that in a GM. Its just that he's a bad gambler. And he should have realized that years ago. Someone, like a President Linden, should have told him to stop and get some help years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

But I'm like Homer. I'm cheering for this gamble to work this time.  Maybe the Knights are on to something

 

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by kilgore

[RU SERIOUS]

1 hour ago, kilgore said:

Maybe I should start a new OP, but too many Benning threads already.

 

Just an observation, now looking back at JB's tenure.

Everyone had his Modus Operendi pegged as an old school, build through the draft, kind of guy.  And he himself sealed that description because of A. His past expertise was drafting, and B. He so much as stated it when he came in. Myself and I think many others, braced themselves for big changes.  There was even talk of asking the Sedins to wave their no trade clause. And if they did, maybe Edler would etc. 

 

But I was listening to a hockey podcast the other day where they were discussing how the Vegas Knights are always in on every single bidding war for any available top player.  Everything is on the table. First rounders included.  Not the typical MO of an expansion team's first years. In fact it flies in the face of logic in how to build a sustainable franchise.  They load up for the present, as much as they can, every season, and worry about the future when it comes.  Perhaps the thinking is that they will go all out until they are quite literally forced into building a team from the bottom up. At which point they will suck badly, and will have traded most higher picks/prospects away and so will have to rebuild under those conditions, which will mean a more painful long rebuild.  But that is all in some foggy future.  That is the gamble they are willing to take.  As long as they keep in contention, they could win a Cup before that has to happen. Before it all catches up to them. And I suppose, some of those Cup winning players, would have good value to trade to re-stock the cupboards.

 

And it dawned on me that this sounds like Benning's philosophy since he came here.  In spite of fan and media assumptions.  And/or it was the Aquilinis philosophy, and they made sure the new GM was on board with that.  But either way, Benning accepted that. The buck stops with him.

 

Of course completely different circumstances for the two teams.  But similar in that both teams were composed of veteran players with a mix of a few very good players still, and a lot of good players but that were past their prime or were of more average ability.

 

JB is a gambler. The way he talks so carefully and conservatively, has fooled us all.  The thing is, the gambles may have worked.  LE COULD have turned out being the long lost third twin. Garrison COULD have become that long sought stalwart on the back end. Virtanen COULD have grabbed the opportunity to be a home town hero. Sutter COULD have been that foundational center worth what his contract was.   .....on and on.... Vey, Gagner....  so many that just did not develop like Benning hoped for when he sacrificed those picks and prospects through the years. 

 

And at the same time giving up on spots for some prospects whom the team took time and money developing for this latest shiny bestest team ever made up of players other teams were okay trading away.  And when those contracts are up (or before), and CDC is shouting for their heads, those prospects we gave up for them will be entering their prime years.  Having in-house developed support players would be invaluable when Petey and Quinn are even better in a couple of years. Oh well.

 

In some ways I appreciate Jim for not being afraid to gamble.  I want a bit of that in a GM. Its just that he's a bad gambler. And he should have realized that years ago. Someone, like a President Linden, should have told him to stop and get some help years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

But I'm like Homer. I'm cheering for this gamble to work this time.  Maybe the Knights are on to something

 

 

Great post !!!!

[Gnarcore]

16 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

No man, we had a team with Bure, Mogilny, Messier, Naslund and Linden that finished 7th out of 7 teams in the division.

 

Also traded away the starting goalie at least twice that season.  Had four different starting goalies over the course of the year.  Three of those starting goalies played in multiple NHL all star games and the team was still atrocious.

 

 

 

I think that team was 2nd highest payroll too that season. 

[EddieVedder]

7 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

We are witnessing an oddly incapable PP since the lineups are largely the same (minus the occasional swapping of Chiasson for Boeser), plus one of those regulars (Petey is having an off start to the season).  If I'm coach I'd rather give him some PP2 time and hopefully let his timing catch up to him there.  In the meantime, I'd want to see the following (note: not leaving Petey to dry but rather letting him face lesser defenders while still playing with guys he has chemistry in Boeser and Hoglander).

PP1: (Podkolzin net front + puck retrieval, shot threats from the wings and the bumper; the wings can swap for more unpredictability)
              Podkolzin     
Garland - Horvat - Miller
               Hughes

PP2: (similar to PP1, Pearson net + retrieval, two legit one-timers for OEL to set up; Hoglander can shoot or dangle)
               Pearson 
Boeser - Hoglander - Petey  
                 OEL
 

Should try...

 

Garland-Horvat-Hoglander

Miller-OEL 

 

These are the 5 best puck handlers on the team.  The rest just lose the puck on the pp.   

[MaxVerstappen33]

14 hours ago, IBatch said:

Ahhh.   The biggest what if all-time.   IF Messier came, changed his number out of respect for Maki,  fell in behind Linden and used his "leadership" to add value to the team as a second line center...we could of iced two incredible lines.    And won some cups...all the players were in their primes..and maybe we could of got a couple 40/40 seasons out of Messier, kind of had that Howe vibe at the time.   Like Ovi does now same age.   Check out the previous two Messier seasons, and those were dead puck era ones too. 

That's amazing. He was Ovi's age. We had a huge payroll then too.  Why did it flop so badly ?  Thats what cups are made of. Star prospects and star vets on the same team.

Edited November 7, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[Ajax-]

14 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Miller can take the draw.

 

It's a good point you make though. So the number one franchise center can't win a draw?

 

Concern?

Not improving is my concern. I watch him very closely with the faceoffs.....lame, its like he knows he is going to loose

 

Maybe the wrist is an issue?

[Ajax-]

19 hours ago, DSVII said:

This isn't on the talent or chemistry of the roster. It's on a coaching staff that is playing a grinding 'not to lose' style incompatible with the personnel, despite being given the most talented team since the start of the GMs 8 year tenure.

 

 

 

 

Imho, player execution is equally responsible for our slow start, maybe God forbid, more than our coach's systems. All teams have system and structure, how radically different can our system be from  other teams?

Why would our players struggle to play the system? Not executing on the ice.

 

Take a pass, make a bloody pass, place a subtle pick, get below your man in D zone, &^@#ing hit the net with your shot

 

Go canucks go 

 

 

[stawns]

On 11/6/2021 at 6:01 AM, joe-max said:

[N4ZZY]

22 hours ago, Chris12345 said:

Miller can take the draw.

 

It's a good point you make though. So the number one franchise center can't win a draw?

 

Concern?

I am concerned. That's a part of his game he needed to work on this off-season, but apparently not enough work on it. 

 

I'm waiting to see once he gets up to speed, whether his face-offs will also improve and get better. If it doesn't, boy, yes, I would definitely be concerned. 

 

[N4ZZY]

5 hours ago, stawns said:

[N4ZZY]

6 hours ago, Ajax- said:

Imho, player execution is equally responsible for our slow start, maybe God forbid, more than our coach's systems. All teams have system and structure, how radically different can our system be from  other teams?

It's a good point. I think it's partly because of a few things. 

 

I think it's partly because the players aren't producing - the biggest culprit obviously is Pettersson. 

 

Miller has been producing, but his passing has been horrendous. So he's culprit as well. 

 

I think the other thing is that the players to me doesn't seem like they've completely bought into the pp system particularly. 1/20 is horrible. It's unprofessional to produce like that. Shame on the team and their players for putting up $&!# after $&!#. Paying customers won't be paying too much longer for $&!# like that. 

 

[N4ZZY]

7 hours ago, Ajax- said:

Not improving is my concern. I watch him very closely with the faceoffs.....lame, its like he knows he is going to loose

 

Maybe the wrist is an issue?

Wouldn't be surprised if the wrist is still a problem for Petey. Does his shot look off? 

 

It's hard for me to believe that a player so good and deserving of a contract extension and a raise, suddenly just falls off the cliff. He's better than the 1 goal in 11 games he's demonstrated, especially with what we've seen in the past of him. I hope he breaks out tonight, but might be asking too much of Petey. 

 

[Ajax-]

Just now, N4ZZY said:

Wouldn't be surprised if the wrist is still a problem for Petey. Does his shot look off? 

 

It's hard for me to believe that a player so good and deserving of a contract extension and a raise, suddenly just falls off the cliff. He's better than the 1 goal in 11 games he's demonstrated, especially with what we've seen in the past of him. I hope he breaks out tonight, but might be asking too much of Petey. 

 

When's the last time you saw Pettey get one of his wicked shots off? 

 

Other teams are coached to immediately close on Pettey, he has to figure out a way to get open.

 

His first year he was a beast at back checking.......

[Toyotasfan]

The team is dependent on a healthy Pettersson being a productive 1st line centre. It’s crucial.

[N4ZZY]

21 minutes ago, Ajax- said:

When's the last time you saw Pettey get one of his wicked shots off? 

 

Other teams are coached to immediately close on Pettey, he has to figure out a way to get open.

 

His first year he was a beast at back checking.......

Haven't seen him take a lot of shots. But I'm more wondering about how his shot looks. If he's injured, then he wouldn't have any zip on his shot right? Does it? 

 

Maybe the kid doesn't want to be here....

 

[N4ZZY]

11 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

The team is dependent on a healthy Pettersson being a productive 1st line centre. It’s crucial.

Yep. He wants to win. The organization is going to win. 

 

But the team is only to go as far as Pettersson is going to take them. 

 

 

[iceman64]

On 11/6/2021 at 2:59 AM, RU SERIOUS said:

With yet another loss in a never ending cycle of failure & disjointed play on the ice - following a nearly complete new cast of players brought in over the past couple of years (including 11 new players this year alone - which was expected to turn the team around),   is it possible that we are witnessing the greatest assembly of incompatable players ever put together in team history?  

No, that would be the CDC.. 

 

[iceman64]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:55 PM, N4ZZY said:

Yep. He wants to win. The organization is going to win. 

 

But the team is only to go as far as Pettersson is going to take them. 

 

 

kind of sounds like most teams/if not all, in the NHL...

[iceman64]

On 11/6/2021 at 10:23 AM, Chris12345 said:

No.

 

Man you can really tell who started watching hockey in 2011.

yes, yes you can, it's pretty glaring in here, and newbies within the last 5-10 that think they have the lowdown on team history but ignore it in favour of what they read and hear out of the media like it's gospel.. especially 2012 onward.. went from bad to stupid but it's entertaining "sometimes"... however the bitch bitch bitch whine whine whine like lil kids does get old...