FIRE Jim Benning & Travis Green Thread

[wallstreetamigo]

Just now, spook007 said:

I don't disagree one bit regarding this...

The fact is, the way the NHL is run, the club can screw one another over if they feel like it.

You named a great example, so why are they getting away these circumventions of the rules? Is it something they have against VCR in the NHL?

But if you are warned, the way the NHL is set up, you run the risk of getting punished...

Thats the way they play the game, and we can all complain about it till the cows come in, but that doesn't change it. 

Canucks hoped to get away with it, but the other NHL teams decided to screw us over... amongst others.

I don’t blame Gillis though. He could not have been expected to realistically expect a retroactive punishment given the history and other contracts that were not punished for the same thing. 
 

He rolled the dice at a time several teams were rolling the dice on those type of deals. Lots to blame him for but this isn’t one of them. 

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

I don’t blame Gillis though. He could not have been expected to realistically expect a retroactive punishment given the history and other contracts that were not punished for the same thing. 
 

He rolled the dice at a time several teams were rolling the dice on those type of deals. Lots to blame him for but this isn’t one of them. 

I think what is comes down to is a GM is there to do his job in the "here and now". He is out for himself and doesn't care what a future GM has to work with. Why would he given it would mean he'd be out of a job? lol

 

So what Gillis did was whatever he could to make the team best at the moment in time. How good of a job that ended up being is up for debate, but the intention's still going to be there whether it was a good job or not.

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I think what is comes down to is a GM is there to do his job in the "here and now". He is out for himself and doesn't care what a future GM has to work with. Why would he given it would mean he'd be out of a job? lol

 

So what Gillis did was whatever he could to make the team best at the moment in time. How good of a job that ended up being is up for debate, but the intention's still going to be there whether it was a good job or not.

This is fair. The same can be said about Benning now. He has &^@#ed the next gm long term cap wise for sure.

[The Lock]

Just now, wallstreetamigo said:

This is fair. The same can be said about Benning now. He has &^@#ed the next gm long term cap wise for sure.

Of course. Every GM is going to leave the next GM with a "situation".

 

At least we didn't have Chayka running things. Believe it or not, things could be worse. lol

[spook007]

27 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Not sure about LA. The only player I can think of would be Richards but he had his contract terminated.

 

And I'm not saying you're lying, but this is the first I've heard of the warning - do you have any source for this?

I can't find it, so maybe I'm wrong.

I have seen it several times mentioned, but can find it...

[King Heffy]

24 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Agreed actually. On top of that, but if you try and run statistics on drafting (including taking into account on where each GM was able to draft), Nonis was actually more successful than BOTH Gillis and Benning. This is mostly due to having drafted Edler, Hansen, Schneider, Raymond, and Grabne among others, which is actually more impressive than I think some people want to think (albeit who knows how much influence Burke had that 1st year).

Nonis was actually fine, but he didn't come from a hockey background and mostly just kept things going from the Burke era.

[whysoserious]

38 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Wasn't a good move either.  You do realize that we haven't had a qualified GM since Burke, right?  Nonis managed well enough to not screw things up too badly, and then it was downhill from there.

Imagine describing the winningest stretch in franchise history where we made the playoffs year after year, won multiple presidents trophies and were 1 game away from winning the cup as going "downhill". How can anyone take you seriously?

[King Heffy]

1 minute ago, whysoserious said:

Imagine describing the winningest stretch in franchise history where we made the playoffs year after year, won multiple presidents trophies and were 1 game away from winning the cup as going "downhill". How can anyone take you seriously?

With the core gifted to him by qualified management, and then systematically destroyed by two very, very poor GMs.

[MaxVerstappen33]

32 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Lol Loui was definitely a franchise crippling contract. Add in a bunch of smaller overpayments like Sutter, Pearson, Roussel, Beagle, Myers, Hamonic, etc and it certainly lost the team the ability to add and keep key difference making players and quality depth. Death by a thousand cuts is the best way to describe his cap mismanagement.
 

Benning was also a big proponent for the Seguin for Loui trade in Boston btw. 

No it wasn't. Erricson scored 30 goals the year before we signed him. And scored in that range through his career. 6 million for a 30 goal scorer, even an older one,  is a very standard free agency number. If it was 8 years then yes. But it wasn't 8 years.

[wallstreetamigo]

31 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

No it wasn't. Erricson scored 30 goals the year before we signed him. And scored in that range through his career. 6 million for a 30 goal scorer, even an older one,  is a very standard free agency number. If it was 8 years then yes. But it wasn't 8 years.

Lol so the fact that he fell off a cliff despite being among the highest paid players on the team for a 6 year deal isn’t franchise crippling? Sure bud. It was a terrible signing and cost the team plenty of opportunity to acquire better players. That by definition is franchise crippling.

 

Anyone who actually watched how Player Name was used and who he was used with by Boston the previous year would have been able to easily see he wasn’t going to be getting similar deployment in a an no matter who he played with. 

[D-Money]

1 hour ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

It's just a load of absolute garbage that Benning is one of the worst in the salary cap era. He has never signed a franchise crippling contract or made a laugher trade like Chiarelli or Rutherford. Look around the league before you spout off nonsense 

Chiarelli and Rutherford won cups. Rutherford multiple. So at least their swings occasionally connected.

[MaxVerstappen33]

35 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Lol so the fact that he fell off a cliff despite being among the highest paid players on the team for a 6 year deal isn’t franchise crippling? Sure bud. It was a terrible signing and cost the team plenty of opportunity to acquire better players. That by definition is franchise crippling.

 

Anyone who actually watched how Player Name was used and who he was used with by Boston the previous year would have been able to easily see he wasn’t going to be getting similar deployment in a an no matter who he played with. 

In the last 5 years of free agency , what free agent could have we spent that cap space on ? Im just asking. 

 

 

[Zhukini]

1 minute ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

In the last 5 years of free agency , what free agent could have we spent that cap space on ? Im just asking. 

 

 

you don't always need to spend cap space you have on Free Agents. 

 

You could plan ahead and save it so you don't always have to bridge your RFA's. Or you can do what Arizona and Detroit did and eat up dead cap space in return for draft picks. Vancouver preferred the strategy where they'd sign bad contracts then pay to move them out. That's why we have one of the worst prospect pools in the league despite one playoff round win in 8 seasons.

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, MaxVerstappen33 said:

In the last 5 years of free agency , what free agent could have we spent that cap space on ? Im just asking. 

 

 

Could have kept some of our own they let walk for nothing. Toffoli, Tanev, etc. And you are really suggesting there has not been a free agent in the past 5 years that would have added more than he did? Laughable.

Why did they need to spend it in free agency in the first place? They could have used that cap space to take a cap dump for pucks/prospects, or a trade pre expansion, or to get another player like Miller that a team needed to move for cap reasons, etc.

 

Cap space is the most valuable asset any GM can have in this environment. Spending it on sub par players is a waste.

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, D-Money said:

Chiarelli and Rutherford won cups. Rutherford multiple. So at least their swings occasionally connected.

It shows what a crapshoot the game of GM'ing is. Chiatelli has shown high level incompetence despite having a cup.

 

Rutherford has enough hype that someone might just sign him so he can shred his own legacy just like Chiarelli did. I just hope that team isn't ours. Incompetent people climb to high places all the time.

Edited December 4, 2021 by MaxVerstappen33

[DeNiro]

Here’s a question for those more familiar with NHL contracts.

 

If the Canucks wanted to retain Benning but demote him to assistant manager would they be within their right to? Or would a title change break the contract?

 

I just say that because if they’re going to pay him anyways why not have him just focus on scouting and preparing for the draft? Have another manager come in and focus on trades and contracts.

[MaxVerstappen33]

1 hour ago, wallstreetamigo said:

Could have kept some of our own they let walk for nothing. Toffoli, Tanev, etc. And you are really suggesting there has not been a free agent in the past 5 years that would have added more than he did? Laughable.

Why did they need to spend it in free agency in the first place? They could have used that cap space to take a cap dump for pucks/prospects, or a trade pre expansion, or to get another player like Miller that a team needed to move for cap reasons, etc.

 

Cap space is the most valuable asset any GM can have in this environment. Spending it on sub par players is a waste.

We had Tanev under contract when LE was here. I think JB thought some combination of Myers and Hamonic would have been better than Tanev and Edler. Yes, he was wrong.

 

I just meant that as far as cap space goes, if you are spending it in free agency, there is hardly ever value out there. The shortage of good players is a bigger issue for GM's than shortage of cap space. This is why players simply get overpaid in free agency.

[Fred65]

I've read through this morass of posts. The nswers all fall into the distraction and divert category.

 

Just for the record

 

Gillis voted by his peers the best GM in the league, not some guy in his mothers basement

Won 2 presidents trophies

game 7 of the SC Final, final!!

Conference Champs

Division champs 5 times.

 

This record according to some is the worse era of Canucks history. Some one should shake their head

 

Benning 

two visits to the play-offs 

 

And this record is apprently great.

 

Some choose judge the team by draft selection, eh no! .... a team is judged by how much it WINS!!

 

The firing of Gills ranks right up there with sign that great Swedish winger Louie Ericksson.

 

The last 8 years has taken the fun out of hockey for me. Disaster after disaster. If Gillis was late to start rectifying the amateur scouts ( and he agreed to that despite bringing in Brackett ) then JB should be JB is late to rectify his Pro scouts who IMHO are terrible and keep recommending 4th line and third pairing D fr too long. As Craig Button noted, Vcr has cornered the market on third pairing defencemen. Even with scouting guru JB we have a 55% success rating with out amateur draft, and believe me this is going to get worse

 

 

 

[DeNiro]

10 minutes ago, Fred65 said:

I've read through this morass of posts. The nswers all fall into the distraction and divert category.

 

Just for the record

 

Gillis voted by his peers the best GM in the league, not some guy in his mothers basement

Won 2 presidents trophies

game 7 of the SC Final, final!!

Conference Champs

Division champs 5 times.

 

This record according to some is the worse era of Canucks history. Some one should shake their head

 

Burke and Nonis did all the heavy lifting there. Lets not give Gillis all the credit.

 

He inherited a team that already one of the best goalies in the league (Luongo), two of the best forwards in the league (Sedins), a Jack Adams coach, the best shutdown center in the league (Kesler), a good top 4 (Edler, Bieksa, Salo, Mitchell) and a good supporting cast (Burrows, Hansen, Raymond) 

 

He made some great moves getting Ehrhoff, Hamhuis, Malhotra, Samuelson, Higgins, Lapierre don’t get me wrong. But he already had a large part of the foundation in place.

 

Same way another GM could come in and take our team to the next level. Benning will always be a big part of what this current roster does.

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by DeNiro

[Darius]

How about Lawrence Gillman? a guy who can step into the next phase of his career as a GM…seemed like a smart guy to me… and he’s not in his 70s… this would have to be an off-season move .

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Darius