[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[T.Demko]

3 hours ago, JM_ said:

1. the Miller trade return rumours haven't been anything close to that kind of return.

 

 

2. who's "we"?

 

3. a lot of assumptions about the teams abilities....  they were playoff calibre under Boudreau, and now the F group has had significant upgrades. We don't know what they are yet. I don't see how you can say that until you've seen what they can do leading up to the TDL.

 

Sorry JM, this may look a little broken as I'm only quoting questions / comments you put under my quote, but without my original piece, so hopefully it isn't too distorted or confusing.

 

1. Rumors is exactly what it is.  We truly don't know what has been offered, whether that is Dobson or whether that is Lundqvist, Chytil and a 1st.  That is outside of my interest at this point because we can't really be debating something no one can confirm.  What I am saying is, although we would prefer to have a home-run return for Miller, even if such is not presented to the Canucks, we can assume at least some decent value is offered for a player of JT's caliber.  I understand fair value could be subjective on which end of the Miller spectrum one's sitting at (and that is to each opinion), but still something is better than nothing is it not?  If JT is being risked to just walk out on us, I don't believe the Canucks are in a position to lose him for few measly playoff games.

 

2. We, in this exact specific context, referred to the very recent posters who have been actively debating with RWJC or grandmaster and shared a common thought as I.  It also included RWJC as RWJC also pointed out he/she/they did not believe our team was constructed as a Contender yet.

 

3. I don't ever recall stating we were not a team that could make the playoffs.  As I have stated multiple times, especially with JT and BB, we are a team that can surely make the playoffs.  However, there is a big difference between a team that can make the playoffs and a Cup Contender.  We are definitely not the latter, and nowhere close to competing against the real big boys.  I'm also excited as well for the new additions we have made, but I'm not sure if I would call that "significant" upgrades.  Regardless, that is a surprise for us to witness as the season unfolds.

[cripplereh]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

So we don’t go with BPA, because that’s a bad thing in a cap system?  

An established RHD that is Big and very defensive and can move the puck that's cap hit is low is everything this team needs moving forward plus a 1st and maybe a 3rd or 4th would be a great return 

[RWJC]

The sh!tty thing for this club is that had we replaced Green numerous seasons ago, we probably would have seen the advent of JTM and a couple other players (aside from Demko proving his status) and we’d now likely be two years ahead in the timeline.

 

Green, not Benning as much, but Green really restricted this team’s abilities.

Yes it’s hindsight, but a coach with a more offense driven system would have brought more out of the type of guys we have/had as our strengths.

 

it’s a shame. Still remember that clip of JTM yelling at Green in practice “We don’t know what we’re doing!”.

 

a waste of talent for too long but at least JTM will convert as a great piece in the overall progression 

 

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

Who said rebuild?  That's around how long it takes a bubble playoff to get to be a contender.

Apparently you're either a contender, or you're rebuilding and a lotto team. No middle ground 

 

And evidently simply making the playoffs is synonymous with contender.

 

It's pretty hard to debate people with such contradictory beliefs.

 

Miller is so invaluable we'll collapse as a team without him, yet he'll sign FAR below market value and/or barely return even a late first in trade ...

 

You're either Colorado or Arizona... No middle ground.

 

I can't even... 

[RWJC]

59 minutes ago, T.Demko said:

Sorry JM, this may look a little broken as I'm only quoting questions / comments you put under my quote, but without my original piece, so hopefully it isn't too distorted or confusing.

 

1. Rumors is exactly what it is.  We truly don't know what has been offered, whether that is Dobson or whether that is Lundqvist, Chytil and a 1st.  That is outside of my interest at this point because we can't really be debating something no one can confirm.  What I am saying is, although we would prefer to have a home-run return for Miller, even if such is not presented to the Canucks, we can assume at least some decent value is offered for a player of JT's caliber.  I understand fair value could be subjective on which end of the Miller spectrum one's sitting at (and that is to each opinion), but still something is better than nothing is it not?  If JT is being risked to just walk out on us, I don't believe the Canucks are in a position to lose him for few measly playoff games.

 

2. We, in this exact specific context, referred to the very recent posters who have been actively debating with RWJC or grandmaster and shared a common thought as I.  It also included RWJC as RWJC also pointed out he/she/they did not believe our team was constructed as a Contender yet.

 

3. I don't ever recall stating we were not a team that could make the playoffs.  As I have stated multiple times, especially with JT and BB, we are a team that can surely make the playoffs.  However, there is a big difference between a team that can make the playoffs and a Cup Contender.  We are definitely not the latter, and nowhere close to competing against the real big boys.  I'm also excited as well for the new additions we have made, but I'm not sure if I would call that "significant" upgrades.  Regardless, that is a surprise for us to witness as the season unfolds.

To pick up Mik and Kuz as “freebies” is a great move for this club. Even if neither pan out as expected, it at least didn’t cost us any future to acquire two potential top 6 players. That’s a win for mgmt already. 

[Elias Pettersson]

53 minutes ago, stawns said:

2 years from being a regular playoff team.......then probably a couple first or second exits, then a couple seasons of getting close to the finals and then a season or two of being a top contender........that's the path most champions take.  

Colorado finished dead last and was the worst team in the NHL in 2017. Didn’t even make the playoffs the following year in 2018. They won the Cup only 5 years after being the worst team in the NHL. 
 

Not every team takes the same projectory to winning a Cup. Colorado took a huge jump this year because Makar became a Norris trophy winner. One player can make a huge difference.
 

Miller fits that bill. Only 8 other players got more points than Miller last year.  Some even had him in Hart trophy consideration at some point during the year.  You can’t expect to trade your best forward and still be competitive in the short term unless you replace him like for like.
 

JR said he didn’t want t to take a step back which is why Miller hasn’t been traded yet. He has yet to find a dance partner that will give us enough of a return they we don’t take a step back. 

[NorthWestNuck]

Hot take maybe, but I say we have the forward depth, especially with the add of the two Russians, to make the playoffs even without Miller in our line up. Between Miller likely having a bit of a regression to the mean (last year was likely a career year), and the boost a Miller trade would make to a d that was already 6th in the league at even strength once Bruce took over, means that even if we swapped out Miller 1 for 1 with a higher end dman (Schneider, Dobson, or the like) or a lesser swap of a Center and a dman (grans and valardi, Lunqvist and chytil, etc) would be a net improvement to our team.

[RWJC]

17 minutes ago, NorthWestNuck said:

Hot take maybe, but I say we have the forward depth, especially with the add of the two Russians, to make the playoffs even without Miller in our line up. Between Miller likely having a bit of a regression to the mean (last year was likely a career year), and the boost a Miller trade would make to a d that was already 6th in the league at even strength once Bruce took over, means that even if we swapped out Miller 1 for 1 with a higher end dman (Schneider, Dobson, or the like) or a lesser swap of a Center and a dman (grans and valardi, Lunqvist and chytil, etc) would be a net improvement to our team.

I’d like to agree but I think it’s very hard to project at this time. I think the safer bet would be to simply associate the same number of total points to those two (Kuz + Mik) as who they might replace. So as a benchmark to be safe I’d use Pearson for both and hope for more. 
 

From there, should see Podz raise his totals a bit. Perhaps Garland as well depending on how things play out.
 

you subtract Miller’s pts but split that TOI across the board between the top two lines to level an even ice time and balanced skill sets and this team could be stronger without him (including rostering any of his return by trade) in terms of overall scoring support, which would really help the bottom line.
like I keep saying, this team will win by committee. Would love to see multiple 20 goal scorers. With whom we have I think it’s possible to end up with 6-7 guys hitting that mark, rather than just the 4 we had last season.
 

In losing JTM this is basically our silver lining (aside from the return), imho. 

 

 

[Chris12345]

2 hours ago, KirkSave said:

Everything seemed to go their way last year after their covid hiatus. Career years for their big boys who are now gone. 2 huge holes for sure. But they are still going to be a solid team. Probably won't have those high scoring back and forth games with the Oilers (too bad cause that was great to watch) but they should still be a team that makes it to the dance IMO. Time will tell. Maybe Monahan fill rediscover his game? His contract is up after this season and players seem to go for broke when it's their time to show the NHL what they can do.

Their d is still outstanding.....now excuse me I need to shower.

[RWJC]

13 minutes ago, Chris12345 said:

Their d is still outstanding.....now excuse me I need to shower.

Go wash your Weegar, you sweathog. 

[BigTramFan]

55 minutes ago, NorthWestNuck said:

Hot take maybe, but I say we have the forward depth, especially with the add of the two Russians, to make the playoffs even without Miller in our line up. Between Miller likely having a bit of a regression to the mean (last year was likely a career year), and the boost a Miller trade would make to a d that was already 6th in the league at even strength once Bruce took over, means that even if we swapped out Miller 1 for 1 with a higher end dman (Schneider, Dobson, or the like) or a lesser swap of a Center and a dman (grans and valardi, Lunqvist and chytil, etc) would be a net improvement to our team.

Let's see...if we trade Miller then we have lost the following players and their pts since last season:

Miller (99) + Chiasson (22) + Motte (15) + Lammikko (15) + Highmore (12) = 163 pts

 

And we have replaced them with:

Mikheyev (32) + Kuzmenko (similar numbers to Mikheyev in KHL, so maybe also 30 pts) + Lazar (16 pts) + Joshua (8 pts in 30 gp, so maybe 16 pts) + Lockwood (never scored a point in NHL in 15 games, so maybe 5 pts)..............Projected total = 99 pts

 

Podz and Hogs will likely improve, but we won't make the playoffs without Miller...

[stawns]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Colorado finished dead last and was the worst team in the NHL in 2017. Didn’t even make the playoffs the following year in 2018. They won the Cup only 5 years after being the worst team in the NHL. 
 

Not every team takes the same projectory to winning a Cup. Colorado took a huge jump this year because Makar became a Norris trophy winner. One player can make a huge difference.
 

Miller fits that bill. Only 8 other players got more points than Miller last year.  Some even had him in Hart trophy consideration at some point during the year.  You can’t expect to trade your best forward and still be competitive in the short term unless you replace him like for like.
 

JR said he didn’t want t to take a step back which is why Miller hasn’t been traded yet. He has yet to find a dance partner that will give us enough of a return they we don’t take a step back. 

And it took them 5 years to get to the Cup.  I think we can also agree that the Canucks don't have a Nate MacKinnon and cake Makar's on great deals that allow the Av's to add the pieces they needed.  Their core is much better than Vans and if it took the Avs 5 years, you can bank on it being longer for Van.  That's the normal path for most cup winners........it takes a long time and a lot of disappointment to get to the top.

 

 

[stawns]

4 minutes ago, BigTramFan said:

Let's see...if we trade Miller then we have lost the following players and their pts since last season:

Miller (99) + Chiasson (22) + Motte (15) + Lammikko (15) + Highmore (12) = 163 pts

 

And we have replaced them with:

Mikheyev (32) + Kuzmenko (similar numbers to Mikheyev in KHL, so maybe also 30 pts) + Lazar (16 pts) + Joshua (8 pts in 30 gp, so maybe 16 pts) + Lockwood (never scored a point in NHL in 15 games, so maybe 5 pts)..............Projected total = 99 pts

 

Podz and Hogs will likely improve, but we won't make the playoffs without Miller...

Disagree and we don't know what would be coming back in a miller deal either.

 

[Got the Babych]

1 hour ago, RWJC said:

To pick up Mik and Kuz as “freebies” is a great move for this club. Even if neither pan out as expected, it at least didn’t cost us any future to acquire two potential top 6 players. That’s a win for mgmt already. 

I get what you're saying, but they definitely weren't free. The dollars aren't ridiculous, but the price paid was blowing our small cap space wad on a position of  (relative) strength, which prevented us from improving on our main need. RHD Marino was bandied about as a trade piece for some of our most valuable assets, and ended up as a cap dump. Those are the freebies in the NHL now.

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

 

JR said he didn’t want t to take a step back which is why Miller hasn’t been traded yet. He has yet to find a dance partner that will give us enough of a return they we don’t take a step back. 

Based on his pressers and comments since day 1 that's not my take. It seemed to me they hoped they wouldn't take a step back but strongly hinted it was possible (likely?) and that creating a perennial contender was paramount to that. I think they are looking/waiting for a good return regardless and we'll see how far they are willing to take that ... and what the parts indeed are in a return.

 

Realistically though I think we're looking more at 4 years for a full revamp with a possibility of 2 or 3 depending on some luck/Miller return/future moves.

[RWJC]

22 minutes ago, Got the Babych said:

I get what you're saying, but they definitely weren't free. The dollars aren't ridiculous, but the price paid was blowing our small cap space wad on a position of  (relative) strength, which prevented us from improving on our main need. RHD Marino was bandied about as a trade piece for some of our most valuable assets, and ended up as a cap dump. Those are the freebies in the NHL now.

And I hear where you’re coming from, but if Marino was a trade option for us he probably would have been picked up by Rutherford (who signed him to his current contact in PIT). Just because he was in trade rumours doesn’t mean we were considered a good partner, right? Takes PIT to determine what they consider fair value or whom they want. Do I think we could have offered better than the eventual return? Absolutely. But that doesn’t make him a freebie because it never went down with us. Assets were still traded out for him and may prove to be of similar or better value. Hard to say just yet. 

 

my point is that we gave up nothing to audition two guys for the top 6 who have legit potential there. Combine their salaries and that’s what you pay for 1 if you’re managing assets well. 
 

these are the kinds of moves we need to make. Not allocate millions in cap space, plus contract spots, for borderline 3rd/4th liners who can’t consistently be counted on to play anything above that. 

Edited August 15, 2022 by RWJC

[Devron]

At some the Canucks are going to have to sign a player like Miller  to an extended contract that puts them well past their prime. It’s the nature of the beast. Most teams will have to do this. It’s just how things are trending. A lot of teams already have one or two players like this. It’s inevitable at some point unless you want to continuously suck every year. It’s a nice thought that a Cap Structure can be perfectly managed but it’s pretty hard to do outside some incentives like tax breaks and location. But even Tampa just signed some ridiculous deals this summer.
 

Either get a great deal that can help us in the near future or sign the man.

[Captain Canuck #12]

6 minutes ago, Devron said:

At some the Canucks are going to have to sign a player like Miller  to an extended contract that puts them well past their prime. It’s the nature of the beast. Most teams will have to do this. It’s just how things are trending. A lot of teams already have one or two players like this. It’s inevitable at some point unless you want to continuously suck every year. It’s a nice thought that a Cap Structure can be perfectly managed but it’s pretty hard to do outside some incentives like tax breaks and location. But even Tampa just signed some ridiculous deals this summer.
 

Either get a great deal that can help us in the near future or sign the man.

Would we be able to trade Miller and just say that we already did those contracts with Eriksson and Beagle?!

[Devron]

3 minutes ago, Captain Canuck #12 said:

Would we be able to trade Miller and just say that we already did those contracts with Eriksson and Beagle?!

I’m good with either option as long as the return is strong. There’s only a handful of Miller type production in the league. Those are the guys that should be getting those type of deals. Bottom six players I hope never again. But In free agency those deals happen too. I question the Nick Paul type deals 

[BigTramFan]

4 hours ago, stawns said:

Disagree and we don't know what would be coming back in a miller deal either.

 

Well my comment was in reply to the previous post which suggested trading Miller for a Dman (e.g. Schneider) or a lesser 3C + lesser Dman (e.g. Vilardi + Grans) would be a net improvement on our team and we would make the playoffs this season (Dobson was also mentioned as a return but that's completely ridiculous so I won't go there).

 

Those potential returns in a Miller trade scored either 11 pts or 7 pts respectively last season. Not sure how that is a net improvement for next season and where you think the offense is going to come from to make the playoffs when you take out Miller's contribution.

 

When you factor in that last season there were 17 teams that had better 'goals for' than VAN and only 7 teams that had better 'goals against' than VAN last season. So this means we were in the top 25% of the league in keeping the puck out of our net, but we were in the bottom 50% for putting it into the opposition's net.

 

Trading Miller for those suggested returns will most definitely reduce our chances at making the playoffs next season. At best, it is a step backwards for the next 1-2 seasons in the hope that the young guys on our team and the young players from the proposed Miller trades progress and contribute to our future.