Coconuts Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, Me_ said: Do YOU? have the actual numbers? No one does. The dude isn’t signed beyond next year. All of it is speculation. But go ahead and groupwish the player away. Why play the game if you have a chance to lose. May as well quit before the results are in. It’s the most asinine disease manifesting with the Vancouver da base; giving up before the race even starts. Out of curiosity. if vancouver does not trade Miller. We maybe make the playoffs next year, bow out in the first round. Or don't make them at all. Lose him for nothing. What would you say? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Drakrami said: Always pick best player available, not draft by position unless under the most unusual circumstances. Dont want another Juolevi for years to talk about. I agree in general but people often use this as an argument... ie look at some other draft pick.... Drafts and players are unique / independent of one another. Choosing Juolevi in the past or Jake, doesn't mean another pick would end up the same. That fear mongering, not actuality. Moreover, who's to say the Canucks don't see Nemec for instance, as the BPA in the entire draft? People are saying Montreal isn't sold on Wright, clearly BPA could be a host of players based on a team's scouting. People look at rankings and say "that's the BPA". If it were that easy, drafts could be done with a computer and no need to show up, as everyone would have the same "list"....they don't and we can even see that in mock drafts amongst media (who by the way are not scouts). As often as teams have chosen for position and missed, there are as many times they've taken what they thought was the BPA and missed too....we need to take the BPA for our franchise. I can appreciate if the pick is a "reach" ie Barrett Haydon, but if the player you are selecting is considered the best at his position in the draft, also considered to be a top player at his position in the NHL, its not a reach. Personally, given how clear it is Jiricek and Nemec will be top 4 RD in the NHL and our need at that position, I think you have to do it. RD are probably at a higher premium than Centers now, its very hard to trade for them, so you have to draft and develop. If people are concerned we're taking them a pick or 2, too high, trade down and get some additional assets, maybe a second. Ie maybe AZ would do that, and we get a 3rd overall plus 36th. Edited May 31, 2022 by NucknAsia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 11 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Out of curiosity. if vancouver does not trade Miller. We maybe make the playoffs next year, bow out in the first round. Or don't make them at all. Lose him for nothing. What would you say? With the current team? We’re sure to make the playoffs. Beast mode from Miller, Horvat and Demko is almost assured. There is not one world where a team tanks to collect 1st rounders and avoid the playoffs, and then suddenly win a Cup making the playoffs for the first time in a while. No team has ever done that. It doesn’t work like that. It isn’t an all or nothing scenario. It is a gradual ascent toward a Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Me_ said: Do YOU? have the actual numbers? No one does. The dude isn’t signed beyond next year. All of it is speculation. But go ahead and groupwish the player away. Why play the game if you have a chance to lose. May as well quit before the results are in. It’s the most asinine disease manifesting with the Vancouver da base; giving up before the race even starts. I don't think most fans are groupwishing Miller away. Most fans love Miller and what he brings, and see his immense value to the franchise, and even entertainment value. The problem is, the canucks are at a cross roads, we all know it. We have some key young pieces, but not enough to contend, and we need to improve in a number of areas. The result of that is, in order to improve other areas and to become positioned to contend with our key young guys (before we make them go through what Bo has) that we will need to move some valuable assets to get valuable assets back. This is the cost of Benning we need to pay. The reality is, if we look at our window, Miller is the type (and age) of player that you need when you're 'going for it', either you're a consistent playoff team that wants to get over the hump or you are already a contender who wants that last bit to win. Sadly, right now, we are neither of those things. Could he play well into his mid 30's like Bergeron, Pavelski, perhaps, but those guys are a-typical. When you look at risk, salary cap implications, our window, and overall team improvement opportunities, the reality is we actually don't have much of a choice. We need to give to get.... That being said, Alvin and JR are going to be judged heavily on this move. It's either going to set us up to contend, or we are going to lose a bunch of players to UFA in a few years and will end up in a forced rebuild. Edited May 31, 2022 by NucknAsia 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 1 hour ago, JM_ said: Necas and Bear? young right shot C and a decent 3rd pair right side d? Meh. Their has to be at least one high quality piece coming back for a player like JT, on his contract. Those two are very underwhelming. Interesting though, Svechnikov had a very underwhelming playoff, hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Just now, rekker said: Meh. Their has to be at least one high quality piece coming back for a player like JT, on his contract. Those two are very underwhelming. Interesting though, Svechnikov had a very underwhelming playoff, hmmm. I think Necas has a good ceiling still and might be that elusive right shot 3C? I'd like to see what Boudreau can do with him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Me_ said: With the current team? We’re sure to make the playoffs. Beast mode from Miller, Horvat and Demko is almost assured. There is not one world where a team tanks to collect 1st rounders and avoid the playoffs, and then suddenly win a Cup making the playoffs for the first time in a while. No team has ever done that. It doesn’t work like that. It isn’t an all or nothing scenario. It is a gradual ascent toward a Cup. You didn't answer the question. If we compete next year and fail to make the playoffs or bounce in the first round and Miller walks for nothing. What would you say? I also might add I can show you a number of teams who did just what you said within reason regarding picking highly and making the playoffs to win it all a short time later. I might also point out that you're predicating your playoff assumption and assurance that we will see beast mode miller horvat AND demko which could very easily not happen So again, if we lose miller for nothing after either missing the playoffs or after bouncing in the 1st/2nd round. What would you say? Edited May 31, 2022 by Warhippy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 1 minute ago, JM_ said: I think Necas has a good ceiling still and might be that elusive right shot 3C? I'd like to see what Boudreau can do with him. Fair enough. But that's a start. Does Carolina have a first to offer up? But still, a late first and future third line center isn't enough. There needs to be a sure fire, top six player, or top four D coming back in the Miller deal. No magic beans please. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Me_ Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 5 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: I don't think most fans are groupwishing Miller away. Most fans love Miller and what he brings, and see his immense value to the franchise, and even entertainment value. The problem is, the canucks are at a cross roads, we all know it. We have some key young pieces, but not enough to contend, and we need to improve in a number of areas. The result of that is, you have to accept, in order to improve other areas, and become positioned to contend with our key young guys, before we make them go through what Bo has, that we will need to move some valuable assets to get valuable assets back. The reality is, if we look at our window, Miller is the type and age of player that you need when you're 'going for it', you're a consistent playoff team that wants to get over the hump or is a contender who wants that last bit to win. We are neither of those things. Could be play well into his mid 30's like Bergeron, Pavelski, perhaps, but those guys are a-typical. When you look at risk, salary cap implications, our window, and overall team improvement opportunities, the reality is we actually don't have much of a choice. We need to give to get.... That being said, Alvin and JR are going to be judged heavily on this move. It's either going to set us up to contend, or we are going to lose a bunch of players to UFA in a few years and will end up in a forced rebuild. The reality is, you keep Miller and improve your team. You don’t sell off a star because you may not go the whole way. You add to it. You don’t delete. There are a plethora of assets we can get rid of. Moller isn’t one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, JM_ said: I think Necas has a good ceiling still and might be that elusive right shot 3C? I'd like to see what Boudreau can do with him. I love Necas. Lots of speed and skill. It would give us immense strength down the middle where you literally have 3 scoring lines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Me_ said: The reality is, you keep Miller and improve your team. You don’t sell off a star because you may not go the whole way. You add to it. You don’t delete. There are a plethora of assets we can get rid of. Moller isn’t one of them. Sure, in a perfect world. But tell me then what do you envision us getting, and what cap room do we have if we sign miller to the $9 he deserves? What happens when Petey improves and in 2 years wants $11 mil, and Demko wants $8 mil? Do you think someone is going to give us value for Meyers that materially improves the team? We would be lucky to get a 2nd rounder for him Pearson? 3rd rounder? Dickenson? we'd be lucky for someone to take him for a bag of pucks The issue you're missing (I think) is we can't just get rid of junk and expect to be able to get talent back. You have to give up something of value to get something of value. I get it, you love Miller, so do I, to me its like ripping the heart of Kesler out, or Linden, Smyl, etc...these are guys you def win with, and personally I would prefer to move Bo, but I don't see that happening given JR's comments. Again, you're saying just 'we need to add to it'...how? Sell off what assets? What assets do we have that people want that will bring value? How do you solve our RD problem? our depth problem, our 3c problem? without cap room, without players in our system? Edited May 31, 2022 by NucknAsia 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 10 minutes ago, Me_ said: The reality is, you keep Miller and improve your team. You don’t sell off a star because you may not go the whole way. You add to it. You don’t delete. There are a plethora of assets we can get rid of. Moller isn’t one of them. How do you improve your team when you're up to the cap have no depth, have no assets and even with a near league topping run failed to squeak in to the playoffs? We have a number of players we need to replace. free agency isn't cheap. We have glaring holes that need filling. We don't have the picks or prospects to fill them. So how do we improve? IN fact, how do we improve to beat any of the following right now? 18 hours ago, Warhippy said: Vancouver, with our bottom 6 and defense is capable of taking out which teams in a 7 game no holds barred series to make the stanley cup finals Edmonton Calgary Colorado Nashville St Louis Los Angeles Las Vegas Minnesota Now. If we make the Stanley cup finals. We are capable of taking out which team to win the cup with said same bottom 6 and defense? Tampa Bay Carolina New York Florida Pittsburgh Boston We are soooooo much more than a single JT Miller away from winning the cup it is genuinely sad. By the time we have acquired the depth pieces we need to capably say we can beat any of those 3 western teams and then hang with the beasts of the east Miller will be aged out, Horvat will be in his 30's and Pettersson will still look like a bean pole with eyes Ya, I get how valuable JT is to this team, but we are deluding ourselves if we're considering that we're closer to a cup keeping him than we are by trading him in hopes to fill the depth holes we have with him in the line up. This is the reality. Sorry mate, keeping Miller for the $8.5+ million he'll want is NOT viable. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNate Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Miller @50% Boeser Carlo Lysell DeBrusk 2023 1st Carlo, most of the value of the 1st, Lysell for Miller DeBrusk, some of the value of the 1st for Boeser 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 1 minute ago, BCNate said: Miller @50% Boeser Carlo Lysell DeBrusk 2023 1st Carlo, most of the value of the 1st, Lysell for Miller DeBrusk, some of the value of the 1st for Boeser would you do it without the 1st? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanuck Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 2 minutes ago, JM_ said: would you do it without the 1st? Not that you asked me, jm but no, I wouldn't. JR/Allvin have been clear since day 1, they want to acquire extra picks and our prospect pool is completely barren at virtually every position. Picks, specifically high picks (1st/2nd round) are a must in any trade involving our better assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Me_ said: The reality is, you keep Miller and improve your team. You don’t sell off a star because you may not go the whole way. You add to it. You don’t delete. There are a plethora of assets we can get rid of. Moller isn’t one of them. I don't agree. You have to factor in age, and a weak prospect pool. I remember when St Louis traded off Stastny before they went on a cup run. Quality prospects are severely lacking in the Canucks organization. Especially young D. Edited May 31, 2022 by rekker 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 32 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: I agree in general but people often use this as an argument... ie look at some other draft pick.... Drafts and players are unique / independent of one another. Choosing Juolevi in the past or Jake, doesn't mean another pick would end up the same. That fear mongering, not actuality. Moreover, who's to say the Canucks don't see Nemec for instance, as the BPA in the entire draft? People are saying Montreal isn't sold on Wright, clearly BPA could be a host of players based on a team's scouting. People look at rankings and say "that's the BPA". If it were that easy, drafts could be done with a computer and no need to show up, as everyone would have the same "list"....they don't and we can even see that in mock drafts amongst media (who by the way are not scouts). As often as teams have chosen for position and missed, there are as many times they've taken what they thought was the BPA and missed too....we need to take the BPA for our franchise. I can appreciate if the pick is a "reach" ie Barrett Haydon, but if the player you are selecting is considered the best at his position in the draft, also considered to be a top player at his position in the NHL, its not a reach. Personally, given how clear it is Jiricek and Nemec will be top 4 RD in the NHL and our need at that position, I think you have to do it. RD are probably at a higher premium than Centers now, its very hard to trade for them, so you have to draft and develop. If people are concerned we're taking them a pick or 2, too high, trade down and get some additional assets, maybe a second. Ie maybe AZ would do that, and we get a 3rd overall plus 36th. You are way overcomplicating things. If we have the #2 pick for example, we must draft Slafkovsky. Drafting the player most hockey experts / mock draft agrees on. Just like 2016 the only obvious choice at #5 was Tkachuk. 2014 draft at #6 there was no obvious choice and Virtanen looked pretty good at the time, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCNate Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 1 minute ago, JM_ said: would you do it without the 1st? Yikes, not sure. Maybe if we removed the retention and got a 2nd instead of the 1st? I personally like DeBrusk more than Boeser, and is on a good deal for a few more years. Carlo is a great fit for us, and Lysell becomes our best prospect by a mile. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 31, 2022 Share Posted May 31, 2022 Just now, Fanuck said: Not that you asked me, always happy to hear from you Just now, Fanuck said: jm but no, I wouldn't. JR/Allvin have been clear since day 1, they want to acquire extra picks and our prospect pool is completely barren at virtually every position. Picks, specifically high picks (1st/2nd round) are a must in any trade involving our better assets. the reason I might give it serious consideration without the 1st, is: - its a late 1st - the value of locked in salary on Carlo for 5 years. Thats worth a ton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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