[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[Warhippy]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

I mean if thats the case, then we really should hit the reset button on this group. If your take is the right one I'd be looking to move Miller, Bo, Garland, Brock, Myers and Pearson for the highest picks and/or high quality ELC/RFAs possible, and take on other teams crap contracts for 1 or 2 years. 

A reset is not necessary.  We have the most essential key pieces right now.

 

Losing Miller/Pettersson is one of our top players which is a step back but fine

Losing Boeser/Garland is one of our top wingers.  Another step back but ok

Losing Pearson/Hoglander is one of our bottom 6 wingers.  Again manageable.

Now it's Myers/Burroughs.  Another step back 

Shedding Poolman/Dickinson/Hunt and the other dead weight.  Meh

 

We would take a step back for a season or two yet still stay competitive while losing any combination of 2-4 of those pieces; but be far more well positioned in the future.  yet keeping those items is doing more of the exact same and hoping for different results.  A reset is not necessary, a retool over 2 seasons is far more viable.

[BPA]

31 minutes ago, Coconuts said:

But as a businessman surely he realizes he's better off having a sustained window as opposed to trying to milk this mismatched group?

 

Building to be competitive and having sustained success sells merchandise and tickets. Even if we take steps back, if fans see upside and reasons to hope and ve optimistic they will come. But there's got to be an actual plan and direction, New York smartly communicated this to their fanbase a few years back.

 

Just trying to make the playoffs isn't good enough, we've already been trying to do that for years during Benning's rebuild/retool we only comfortably made it once under Desjardins. We made the bubble because of math. 

 

I'm tired of watching the organization spin it's wheels, I've no issue with being patient if they're willing to try and build things gradually and I reckon there are many others who feel the same way. 

I know it.  You know it.  But does FA know it?

 

 

[higgyfan]

21 minutes ago, BPA said:

FA didn’t allow Linden and JB to go that route.  Don’t think he’ll let JR/PA do that either.

 

If anything, FA will approve any moves that can get Canucks back to the playoffs sooner rather than later.  Cuz playoff revenues go directly into FA pockets.

It's hard to predict what FA will do.  It seems like JR has been given the autonomy to do (whatever it is) that was

agreed upon with FA.  He hasn't said anything about a rebuild, but indications are that the plan is to get the

team into the playoffs in the next couple of years and start contending in 3 or 4.

 

The owner(s) of the Canucks forks out a lot of $ on the team and I would think the Covid years have created a huge

hole in any profits. The bottom line, the hockey team is a business and the only way the business makes a profit

is via bums in seats, tv contracts, marketing sales and SC playoff games. 

 

Can't blame a businessman for wanting to make a profit from his business.

[NucknAsia]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

not but overall that's probably a slight improvement 

I'm curious, and not being facetious, truly curious since I don't know much about Marino. He's become a bit of the "player to target" on these boards,  as though he is a but of a savior....I have read pitts has soured on him a bit, and are actively trying to move him because of that. I am asking, how good is he, because perhaps we as fans are getting a bit ahead of ourselves because he's a RD, and over estimating his worth?

 

I am asking as I am curious if any have watched him and have a good look into his skill level?

[Coconuts]

1 minute ago, BPA said:

I know it.  You know it.  But does FA know it?

 

 

My crystal coconut says.. 

 

[BPA]

1 minute ago, higgyfan said:

It's hard to predict what FA will do.  It seems like JR has been given the autonomy to do (whatever it is) that was

agreed upon with FA.  He hasn't said anything about a rebuild, but indications are that the plan is to get the

team into the playoffs in the next couple of years and start contending in 3 or 4.

 

The owner(s) of the Canucks forks out a lot of $ on the team and I would think the Covid years have created a huge

hole in any profits. The bottom line, the hockey team is a business and the only way the business makes a profit

is via bums in seats, tv contracts, marketing sales and SC playoff games. 

 

Can't blame a businessman for wanting to make a profit from his business.

Yup.  Can’t blame him from wanting to make money.  FA cancelled games last year cuz not enough butts in seats last year cuz of Covid-19.  That’s enough to tell me he wants the team to generate profit on a yearly basis.  Money now is better than money later.

[higgyfan]

1 minute ago, BPA said:

Yup.  Can’t blame him from wanting to make money.  FA cancelled games last year cuz not enough butts in seats last year cuz of Covid-19.  That’s enough to tell me he wants the team to generate profit on a yearly basis.  Money now is better than money later.

And no butts in seats the year before.  I can't think of a business that doesn't want to generate profit on a yearly basis.

There's no reason why the (Canuck) business can't do both. 

[JM_]

24 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

A reset is not necessary.  We have the most essential key pieces right now.

 

Losing Miller/Pettersson is one of our top players which is a step back but fine

Losing Boeser/Garland is one of our top wingers.  Another step back but ok

Losing Pearson/Hoglander is one of our bottom 6 wingers.  Again manageable.

Now it's Myers/Burroughs.  Another step back 

Shedding Poolman/Dickinson/Hunt and the other dead weight.  Meh

 

We would take a step back for a season or two yet still stay competitive while losing any combination of 2-4 of those pieces; but be far more well positioned in the future.  yet keeping those items is doing more of the exact same and hoping for different results.  A reset is not necessary, a retool over 2 seasons is far more viable.

Maybe not strictly necessary but why not? Let's get some more elite talent in. Seems to be working for Anaheim.

 

[JM_]

15 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

I'm curious, and not being facetious, truly curious since I don't know much about Marino. He's become a bit of the "player to target" on these boards,  as though he is a but of a savior....I have read pitts has soured on him a bit, and are actively trying to move him because of that. I am asking, how good is he, because perhaps we as fans are getting a bit ahead of ourselves because he's a RD, and over estimating his worth?

 

I am asking as I am curious if any have watched him and have a good look into his skill level?

He's a decent mid priced right side 2nd pair d - that's pretty much the attraction.

[Warhippy]

10 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Maybe not strictly necessary but why not? Let's get some more elite talent in. Seems to be working for Anaheim.

 

They HAD the assets to move and maximized value on them when they did it.  We...refuse to.  We'd rather retain them and keep throwing the same turd at the wall

[Me_]

5 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

They HAD the assets to move and maximized value on them when they did it.  We...refuse to.  We'd rather retain them and keep throwing the same turd at the wall

And you are referring to?

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, Fanuck said:

There will be teams who view him as the piece they need to complete their contending roster and they will be motivated to sign him.

Look at Vegas when they targeted Pietrangelo - regardless of how that scenario worked out it demonstrated how a team can target a need and acquire it despite existing cap limitations.  Hundreds of comments in this thread about this team can't do this or can't do that because of whatever reason but did anyone see Vegas as a legit landing spot for Pietrangelo given their cap situation at that time? 

Or, and more likely, if Miller wants to go for max dollars (as a UFA) he will sign with a bottom feeder to get the biggest dollars, much like Hamilton did.

Miller isn't a D (so AP) so he's not going to have the top teams really pursuing him as more than a rental.  It's either sign for less with a top team or go for the big dollar from a crap team.  

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, Me_ said:

And you are referring to?

Where do you want to start?

 

This year?  Ok

 

2022:

Rakell for a 2nd rounder, Reese, Simon and Aston-reese

Lindholm (retention) and Curran for Moore, Vaakanainen, 1st and two 2nds

Manson for Helleson and a 2nd

 

2021:

Hakanpaa and a 6th for H Fleury

Ben Hutton for a 5th

Volkov for Morand and a 7th

 

https://www.capfriendly.com/trades/ducks

 

Look back, almost every year since they started being a non competitor back in 2017/2018 they've switched out non performing players, added youth and picks without hesitation.  They recognized failing seasons and capitalized on them.  All while hitting on some pretty important picks of their own since about 2017 when they started sliding in to irrelevancy.  When you compare that to vancouver in the same time; it's kind of apparent how one team is continually seeking future success vs success now

[Alflives]

37 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

And no butts in seats the year before.  I can't think of a business that doesn't want to generate profit on a yearly basis.

There's no reason why the (Canuck) business can't do both. 

And that's the trouble with trying to get better while moving forward when a team should clearly be rebuilding/retooling.  We will almost certainly take a step back by trading Miller. He's a 99 point number one center, on a great contract. 

Sakic had a pretty good team and decided it wasn't good enough.  He traded away ROR and Duchene to retool around Mackinnon.  The Avs took a couple steps back to leap ahead (later) to where they are now.  Is Colorado a great team without those trades and a step back? 

Maybe we need to do similar and trade Miller and Bo?   

Edited June 14, 2022 by Alflives

[NucknAsia]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Or, and more likely, if Miller wants to go for max dollars (as a UFA) he will sign with a bottom feeder to get the biggest dollars, much like Hamilton did.

Miller isn't a D (so AP) so he's not going to have the top teams really pursuing him as more than a rental.  It's either sign for less with a top team or go for the big dollar from a crap team.  

Teams can make room...don't forget he's got one year left at $5.5 or whatever it is. Its not next year's cap that matters, its the following and in 2024 the cap is supposed to go up to around 85 mil....so there will be more teams able to pay him than it appears.

[NucknAsia]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

And that's the trouble with trying to get better while moving forward when a team should clearly be rebuilding/retooling.  We will almost certainly take a step back by trading Miller. He's a 99 point number one center, on a great contract. 

Sakic had a pretty good team and decided it wasn't good enough.  He traded away ROR and Duchene to retool around Mackinnon.  The Avs took a couple steps back to leap ahead (later) to where they are now.  Is Colorado a great team without those trades and a step back? 

Maybe we need to do similar and trade Miller and Bo?   

Miller, Bo, Boeser, and Meyers. Stock the hell up on 20-21 year olds who can play and have upside plus picks.

Get a good pick(s) this year, who knows maybe get lucky and land Bedard, plus other players from the picks, by the time Petey, Quinn, and Podz are Bo's age, you're where Colorado is with MacKinnon etc...27 years old....and likely a potential cup contender and your BEST players are only 26/27....

 

Exactly the right move but we like to be a middling team. 

[mll]

17 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Teams can make room...don't forget he's got one year left at $5.5 or whatever it is. Its not next year's cap that matters, its the following and in 2024 the cap is supposed to go up to around 85 mil....so there will be more teams able to pay him than it appears.

Still 1M increase in 2023/24 so 83.5M when he is up for his extension.  The escrow balance is projected to be paid out by the end of the 2024/25 season per Bettman and as long as it's not paid out the cap can't increase by more than 1M.  So it's only in 2025/26 that there could be a cap jump.

 

The pandemic kind of diverted the conversation, but there's been a shift with high end RFAs.  They are now looking to get paid immediately on potential and for many of the top guys it's no longer the reasonable bridge approach.  Skipping that reasonable bridge, limits the pot for the older players.  Teams are less able to absorb declining players on the later years of their contracts, if they are investing more cap space into younger players earlier.  

 

That could further limit the numbers of teams willing to give Miller a retirement contract à la Zibanejad or Hertl, and interested teams might prefer to target him as a 1-year rental which would typically reduce the return.  Miller also has control on where he signs.

 

[stawns]

26 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Teams can make room...don't forget he's got one year left at $5.5 or whatever it is. Its not next year's cap that matters, its the following and in 2024 the cap is supposed to go up to around 85 mil....so there will be more teams able to pay him than it appears.

and the Canucks can retain 50% to make him even more attractive and increase the return

[Alflives]

25 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

Miller, Bo, Boeser, and Meyers. Stock the hell up on 20-21 year olds who can play and have upside plus picks.

Get a good pick(s) this year, who knows maybe get lucky and land Bedard, plus other players from the picks, by the time Petey, Quinn, and Podz are Bo's age, you're where Colorado is with MacKinnon etc...27 years old....and likely a potential cup contender and your BEST players are only 26/27....

 

Exactly the right move but we like to be a middling team. 

Our owner wants to stay competing while retooling the roster.  It didn't work with Benning, and the odds of it working with JR (although a different approach to the same philosophy) are low.  We need to get incredibly lucky in our drafting and have some of our picks (even though they are middle of the rounds) turn into high level players.  Not the best way to do things when it's luck one is relying most on.  But that's what our owner wants.  

Edited June 14, 2022 by Alflives

[stawns]

8 minutes ago, mll said:

Still 1M increase in 2023/24 so 83.5M when he is up for his extension.  The escrow balance is projected to be paid out by the end of the 2024/25 season per Bettman and as long as it's not paid out the cap can't increase by more than 1M.  So it's only in 2025/26 that there could be a cap jump.

 

The pandemic kind of diverted the conversation, but there's been a shift with high end RFAs.  They are now looking to get paid immediately on potential and for many of the top guys it's no longer the reasonable bridge approach.  Skipping that reasonable bridge, limits the pot for the older players.  Teams are less able to absorb declining players on the later years of their contracts, if they are investing more cap space into younger players earlier.  

 

That could further limit the numbers of teams willing to give Miller a retirement contract à la Zibanejad or Hertl, and interested teams might prefer to target him as a 1-year rental which would typically reduce the return.  Miller also has control on where he signs.

 

there will be a number of teams willing to break the bank for Miller, imo.  There always is