[Rumour] Bo Horvat Trade/Contract Talks

[BC_Hawk]

5 hours ago, Coconuts said:

And I'd argue that our forward depth isn't sustainable as we need to reallocate cap to our D. It's more than likely we'll need to move a forward or two out to do so. Likely Boeser or Garland as I mentioned yesterday. 

 

We don't have the cap space to add another top 4D as of right now without subtracting cap from the roster. We're going to need both a replacement for Myers sooner than later and an additional top 4D, there is currently no succession plan for that in place. And even if we manage to replace Myers for his current 6M or less we'll still likely need to pay a sizeable chunk to whoever we fill that open top 4 slot with. 

 

Dallas just paid a 1st round pick for a high end RD prospect that hasn't done ANYTHING at the NHL level. If folks don't think that won't impact the market I don't know what to tell em. Acquiring young, NHL established top end RD is a fantasy. Teams don't move those players, they're incredibly valuable and hard to find to begin with. As as I've argued, 1st picks aren't a luxury to this organization and the cost of moving them out needs to be carefully weighed. We're an organization that's moved two 1st round picks out over the last three seasons, we need to start using them to draft our own players again.

 

As mentioned below the Islanders are in a place where they can compete with their current roster and have their perceived cap woes sort themselves out over the next few seasons, and if they hold on to and utilize their draft picks they'll build up their prospect system while doing so. There's no rush for them to be moving out top end young D to fast track some sort of youth movement, moving out their top end youth is counterintuitive to that anyway. 

 

 

And five of them have two years or less left on their deals, so there isn't a rush to address it as it'll resolve itself. Of the other four only only two are signed to four years or more and one of them makes 2.5M a season. Nelson and Palmieri both have three years apiece. 

 

So really, New York's cap scenario will resolve itself organically for the most part over the next three seasons. Not exactly reason to panic and move out Dobson if the idea is to shift directions, New York has staggered their cap well and only has three deals at five years or more on their current roster and two of them belong to D. You can even throw Pageau in the mix at 29 signed to four more years at 5M per and it won't matter because of the cap that'll organically come off the roster. 

 

 

We do have the space. Our problem is allocation of the ‘available’ cap. Dickinson was a horrible signing at 2.65 and Poolman at 2.5. Then JR and Allvin blow another 1.5m on a shitty Dermott. Those signing were absolutely terrible, and account for >3.65m in excess value on the contracts. You get rid of those 3, get back the Holtby and JV buyouts, and find a trade par tuner for Myers, and your in business. If you need to add a 1st to get it all done, giddy up……take out the trash!

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by BC_Hawk

[Elias Pettersson]

5 hours ago, Fanuck said:

I've heard this comment a lot recently.   Then BB goes on LTIR and Mik has an undisclosed injury and all of a sudden we're nowhere as deep as people thought.  If a centerman gets any significant injury we're in big trouble. 

 

People will say that can happen to any team, and sure it could,  but legit contenders will have defensive units that could sustain serious losses to the forward groups and withstand that, I doubt we could do the same.

Miller           Pettersson    Garland

Kuzmenko   Horvat          Podkolzin

 

Even with Boeser and Mikheyev out we can still ice a very good top 6, one of the better ones in the league.  For sure our bottom 6 will hurt us but that would be the same with any team in the league losing 2 top 9 wingers.  Höglander and probably Dickinson would have to be inserted into the 3rd line, wouldn't be great but if you have injuries you will always suffer to some degree.

[AnthonyG]

Just now, cripplereh said:

Dreaming if you want Dobson as it would cost a player like Bo 1st and at least our top young player.That is not worth it as that is a step backwards.A players like Carlo from Boston would cost less and has a cheaper contract.

Yea it's a pipe dream for sure, but I believe if the package is big enough and can help NYI speed up their impending rebuild, without compromising our core it can be done. Does NYI need a 27 turning 28 year old Bo Horvat? Their average age is 29.4, their last 10 years of drafting has produced a total of 6 NHLers on their current roster. 

Pelech, Pulock, Barzal, Beauvillier, Dobson and Wahlstrom..... 4 of which are over 25 and the rest of their team is basically 30+ they have very few guys under 25. 9 forwards over 30. Their drafting hasn't produced much in the last 7 years. Barzal, Dobson, Wahlstrom and Beauvillier. They've also forfeited 4 1st round picks in the last 5 years, so their organizational talent almost zero. They are needing to rebuild ASAP, they are nowhere near competing with the top teams in the league. They are far from contenders and will be mediocre this year and substantially worse every year following until they begin to address the lack of talent in their system. Barzal's prime will be wasted, Dobson and others will want to get out of that rebuild. 

[cripplereh]

1 minute ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea it's a pipe dream for sure, but I believe if the package is big enough and can help NYI speed up their impending rebuild, without compromising our core it can be done. Does NYI need a 27 turning 28 year old Bo Horvat? Their average age is 29.4, their last 10 years of drafting has produced a total of 6 NHLers on their current roster. 

Pelech, Pulock, Barzal, Beauvillier, Dobson and Wahlstrom..... 4 of which are over 25 and the rest of their team is basically 30+ they have very few guys under 25. 9 forwards over 30. Their drafting hasn't produced much in the last 7 years. Barzal, Dobson, Wahlstrom and Beauvillier. They've also forfeited 4 1st round picks in the last 5 years, so their organizational talent almost zero. They are needing to rebuild ASAP, they are nowhere near competing with the top teams in the league. They are far from contenders and will be mediocre this year and substantially worse every year following until they begin to address the lack of talent in their system. Barzal's prime will be wasted, Dobson and others will want to get out of that rebuild. 

You are right and why they would trade 3 to 5 of their players over 25.That way they could have a quicker rebuild.Tgey would not trade young guys like Dobson as he would be a leader during the rebuild.

[Coconuts]

18 minutes ago, BC_Hawk said:

We do have the space. Our problem is allocation of the ‘available’ cap. Dickinson was a horrible signing at 2.65 and Poolman at 2.5. Then JR and Allvin blow another 1.5m on a shitty Dermott. Those signing were absolutely terrible, and account for >3.65m in excess value on the contracts. You get rid of those 3, get back the Holtby and JV buyouts, and find a trade par tuner for Myers, and your in business. If you need to add a 1st to get it all done, giddy up……take out the trash!

 

Is this factoring Miller's raise? Because if not the dead cap freed up is roughly what pays him. Will have to factor in Bo's raise as well along with anything Hoglander and Dermott get. Plus possibly re-upping Kuzmenko who's a pending UFA. Too early to say what Dermott is as a Canuck, we only got a small sample size last season, we'll know more after this season. You've also got other cap decisions in Schenn and Burroughs at the end of the season.

 

Dickinson is two seasons to wait out, we'd be better off eating the hit this season and simply buying his last season out as opposed to moving picks out to trade him. Poolman should be good enough that he can be a serviceable bottom pairing D at 2.5M. Again, wouldn't pay to move him. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Coconuts

[AnthonyG]

5 hours ago, Coconuts said:

And I'd argue that our forward depth isn't sustainable as we need to reallocate cap to our D. It's more than likely we'll need to move a forward or two out to do so. Likely Boeser or Garland as I mentioned yesterday. 

 

We don't have the cap space to add another top 4D as of right now without subtracting cap from the roster. We're going to need both a replacement for Myers sooner than later and an additional top 4D, there is currently no succession plan for that in place. And even if we manage to replace Myers for his current 6M or less we'll still likely need to pay a sizeable chunk to whoever we fill that open top 4 slot with. 

 

Dallas just paid a 1st round pick for a high end RD prospect that hasn't done ANYTHING at the NHL level. If folks don't think that won't impact the market I don't know what to tell em. Acquiring young, NHL established top end RD is a fantasy. Teams don't move those players, they're incredibly valuable and hard to find to begin with. As as I've argued, 1st picks aren't a luxury to this organization and the cost of moving them out needs to be carefully weighed. We're an organization that's moved two 1st round picks out over the last three seasons, we need to start using them to draft our own players again.

 

As mentioned below the Islanders are in a place where they can compete with their current roster and have their perceived cap woes sort themselves out over the next few seasons, and if they hold on to and utilize their draft picks they'll build up their prospect system while doing so. There's no rush for them to be moving out top end young D to fast track some sort of youth movement, moving out their top end youth is counterintuitive to that anyway. 

 

 

And five of them have two years or less left on their deals, so there isn't a rush to address it as it'll resolve itself. Of the other four only only two are signed to four years or more and one of them makes 2.5M a season. Nelson and Palmieri both have three years apiece. 

 

So really, New York's cap scenario will resolve itself organically for the most part over the next three seasons. Not exactly reason to panic and move out Dobson if the idea is to shift directions, New York has staggered their cap well and only has three deals at five years or more on their current roster and two of them belong to D. You can even throw Pageau in the mix at 29 signed to four more years at 5M per and it won't matter because of the cap that'll organically come off the roster. 

 

 

So first off, I agree we will have to move a forward to make the cap work. Moving Garland is probably the most cap beneficial move to make. Hoglander is basically Garland, just on an ELC. So if we ship Garland out with picks and prospects and we build an appealing enough package to land a top 4 RHD, its almost like we didnt lose Garland because Hoglander is an instant replacement within our system.  Moving Boeser and landing a top 4, leaves a bigger hole and is harder to fill that 25-30 pace that he scores at, within our system.  Look to replace the guy you are moving, within your own system. That what makes someone expendable, when you can replace them on a cheaper deal with your own guys, while addressing other organizational needs, such as a top 4RHD. 

 

Secondly, I believe our FWD depth IS sustainable, we now have guys with legit potential, developing right in our own backyard. Marinating in the minors for a couple years. Klim, Karlsson, McDonough, Hoglander, Lockwood.... Lind woulda still been here but we lost him to an expansion team. Kinda sucks because that woulda been another FWD in our system. in 8 years we managed to draft a very strong core, be thankful we have a team and not a bunch of prospects at this point in time, because we'd be in a perennial rebuild like the Coyotes have been and how long it too Buffalo. We're very fortunate to have not spent much time in the basement like a lot of teams have in the last 10-15 years rebuilding.

 

If we were to somehow magically land Dobson, he comes in at a 3 year cost controlled cap hit of 4mil. Whatever we ship out, will be greater than 4 mil, it will not be that hard to make that cap work if it was someone like Dobson (one can dream though)

 

We may have moved 2 1sts in the last 3 years, but NYI has moved 4 in the last 6, 3 in the last 3 years. They have sacrificed the future BIG TIME and their drafting record the years prior to that, dating back to 2009, do not back up those kind of moves. If you think our organizational depth is shallow, theres is 100ft on shore.

 

There is a difference between competing and contending. Islanders are very far from contending and much much closer to rebuilding, something they probably should have started slowly doing the past 3-4 years. Instead they have gone all in and inked a bunch of older players and given up a bunch of 1sts. They will be mediocre at best. Whats the point of competing if you arent going to contend? The whole point is to win a cup, not just compete and make games exciting for 82 games.

 

I find it odd that 2 years for NYI's pending UFA's is plenty of time for them, but 5 years for Vancouver and its youthful core is not enough? You're panicking already about things 5+ years down the road, but its no sweat for NYI who hasnt drafted anything in 4 years and only drafted and produced 2 NHLers in the last 6.

 

NYI's cap situation can resolve itself all it wants, they still lack youth and talent. Who is going to want to sign with a rebuilding bottom of the league team in a few years? No one. Other than guys looking to get paid and are UFA's which typically are 28+ so once again you ink guys just passing their prime to long term deals and in a few years they are dead weight and you're back in the same cycle you were years prior... Old...no youth... and dead weight.

 

Like really, look at NYI's roster... look at their drafting record.... Tell me who is going to take over for the vets that are holding a spot right now. They have no real trade chips aside from some of the younger guys on the team and Pageau. Other than that, its guys over 30 that wont fetch much. Similar to when Benning had to deal with Burrows, Bieksa, Hansen etc.... Guys that didnt hold a ton of value and shortly after being traded, their careers were done. 

 

[AnthonyG]

20 minutes ago, cripplereh said:

You are right and why they would trade 3 to 5 of their players over 25.That way they could have a quicker rebuild.Tgey would not trade young guys like Dobson as he would be a leader during the rebuild.

Yea... thats if Dobson wants to stick around for a rebuild? by the time they start rebuilding, he'll be almost 24. Given how far behind on drafting talent they are and then the future of their drafting.... That could be 8-10 years of struggling. I dont think he'll want to stick around for 8 years of subpar hockey.

 

Edit: Barzal is due for a big payday next year... Do you see anyone around the league being able to afford him with the flat cap? Not likely. Pageau?? 29 and over the hump. Beauvillier??? Hes a 20 goal scorer at best. Do you think any of these guys are going to net you a big return? you think there is a shortage of 20 goal scorers in the league? Barzal's stats dont exactly jump off the page at me outside of his rookie year.

 

Teams aren't going to be lining up for 20 goal scorers, theres plenty around the league. What teams WILL line up for are RHD, there is a shortage. Unfortunately they may have to look at all their options and see Dobson as one of the guys that will accelerate the rebuild. They still have a pretty decent blueline. 

 

They need FWD's desperately, they are sort of in an okay position on the blueline. So if they can add a top 6  FWD plus a pick and a prospect, it goes a lot further for their future, than if they were to add picks and prospects for FWD's because they will have no one to hold a spot pretty soon. Guys will just get tossed into the line of fire and expected to play at an NHL level, right out of the draft. Could derail players potential.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by AnthonyG

[wai_lai416]

25 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea... thats if Dobson wants to stick around for a rebuild? by the time they start rebuilding, he'll be almost 24. Given how far behind on drafting talent they are and then the future of their drafting.... That could be 8-10 years of struggling. I dont think he'll want to stick around for 8 years of subpar hockey.

lol dobson wanting to stick around or not.. islanders have 3 years + rfa rights to slowly drive up his value.. they are literally in 0 rush to move him rebuild or not.. you keep saying Islander needs a rebuild.. no not really.. they are couple of top 6 from actually being competitive again. they are always a defence first team. their defense looks set.. sorokin looks like a real deal.. their 3rd and 4th line is decent. they just need secondary scoring which they lack.. and injury played a big part to their struggle last season considering they don't score much and they are a defence first team. losing pulock for 1/3 of the season. the 3rd place guaranteed playoff spot in that division is up for grabs.. capital missing wilson and backstrom for a while.. penguin who knows if malkin letang crosby can be injury free.. columbus is a dark horse.. outside of rangers and cane that division is wide open.

 

they prolly aint' a cup contender with that roster even adding a top 6 or 2.. but it's good enough to compete for the playoff

Edited September 27, 2022 by wai_lai416

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Fanuck said:

I've heard this comment a lot recently.   Then BB goes on LTIR and Mik has an undisclosed injury and all of a sudden we're nowhere as deep as people thought.  If a centerman gets any significant injury we're in big trouble. 

 

People will say that can happen to any team, and sure it could,  but legit contenders will have defensive units that could sustain serious losses to the forward groups and withstand that, I doubt we could do the same.

Guess we will find out in a couple weeks.  Brock is going to miss 3-7 games...and we have one of the tougher schedules to start the season, 11 road games and a lot in different times zones first 17ish games.    It sucks losing both guys.   Imagine what it would be like if we didn't have these other guys though. Team did fine without Brock last season.   And Ilya M wasn't on the roster.   Still have Kuzmo and Hogs.   That's some serious depth losing two key guys already.   I do agree, we can't afford to lose any of our C's though.   Team should still be able to roll 3 lines.   It could come down to how quickly the fourth line gels.    Highmore Lammy and Motte was one of our better lines last season...

 

 

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

Yea... thats if Dobson wants to stick around for a rebuild? by the time they start rebuilding, he'll be almost 24. Given how far behind on drafting talent they are and then the future of their drafting.... That could be 8-10 years of struggling. I dont think he'll want to stick around for 8 years of subpar hockey.

 

Edit: Barzal is due for a big payday next year... Do you see anyone around the league being able to afford him with the flat cap? Not likely. Pageau?? 29 and over the hump. Beauvillier??? Hes a 20 goal scorer at best. Do you think any of these guys are going to net you a big return? you think there is a shortage of 20 goal scorers in the league? Barzal's stats dont exactly jump off the page at me outside of his rookie year.

 

Teams aren't going to be lining up for 20 goal scorers, theres plenty around the league. What teams WILL line up for are RHD, there is a shortage. Unfortunately they may have to look at all their options and see Dobson as one of the guys that will accelerate the rebuild. They still have a pretty decent blueline. 

 

They need FWD's desperately, they are sort of in an okay position on the blueline. So if they can add a top 6  FWD plus a pick and a prospect, it goes a lot further for their future, than if they were to add picks and prospects for FWD's because they will have no one to hold a spot pretty soon. Guys will just get tossed into the line of fire and expected to play at an NHL level, right out of the draft. Could derail players potential.

 

These guys are pros and get the cycles. It's not like they don't have any youth either.   Whalstrom looks legit to them, the same way we view Podz,   and could make a difference soon.   We said the same thing about Horvat.   He's still here (for now anyways), and this team went to back to back conference finals and then missed last season.   It's not like they are all over the hill.    Maybe they do go the re-set route, but if that's the case, Lou will be 100% parting with vets.   There is a better chance Barzal is traded then Dobson.   And for us that really doesn't make a lot of sense but sure some other teams would be interested.

 

 

The only time in our teams history, we got a young promising D (also 22, four years in already) was when we traded Bure for Jovo ... and that also cost us Hedican.   So it cost us a HHOFer in his prime, who went on and had his best seasons on a different club (which relied heavily on Bure, more then we ever did), and a top four D who was just entering his best years too (and went on to win a cup in CAR) ... One could easily debate if Bure mended fences and stayed, same with Hedican, and Linden was never traded, that team could have won a cup.    

 

We never got to see Bure and Mogilny light it up together on separate lines for what could have been, the best years in club history. In other words the cost was massive.   Losing Bure was one of the worst days for Canuck fans.   A major gut punch ... and the return absolutely seemed awful at the time.   Goes to show what these guys cost though doesn't it? 

 

Back to Dobson.   Sure Lou would trade him, for QHs plus or EP plus.    That's the cost.   Lou built TO's best regular season all-time team.   TO's had some bad luck, like Van did against CHI, just keep playing cup contenders in the first round lol.   It's great fun.  

 Then he hired Trotz, on a team, that just lost Tavares, which had  a shocking effect, never seen a team go from letting in 280ish goals, down to 210ish, let alone doing it without their star franchise center.    Tavares and Stamkos are considered the best UFAs all-time...given their ages (27) and pedigrees, hard to argue against that.   Their fans booed Tavares relentlessly lol, and rightly so since he did lead them on.   Remember that if Horvat isn't traded and leaves ... so far he's saying all the right things, and hasn't led anyone on. 

 

I could see Lou selling his older guys at the TDL, and restructuring their forward group with younger UFAs,  and or pulling the plug for a couple seasons to re-set behind Barzal.   Consider Barzal their Landseskog.  

 

My favourite Lou quote regarding TO "we worked awfully hard, to get the best odds at first overall" ...  he's one of the best in the business.   And has been for decades.    At least Allvin has JR... a rookie GM versus Lou?   Or JB vs Lou... ouch us.   

Edited September 27, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

So first off, I agree we will have to move a forward to make the cap work. Moving Garland is probably the most cap beneficial move to make. Hoglander is basically Garland, just on an ELC. So if we ship Garland out with picks and prospects and we build an appealing enough package to land a top 4 RHD, its almost like we didnt lose Garland because Hoglander is an instant replacement within our system.  Moving Boeser and landing a top 4, leaves a bigger hole and is harder to fill that 25-30 pace that he scores at, within our system.  Look to replace the guy you are moving, within your own system. That what makes someone expendable, when you can replace them on a cheaper deal with your own guys, while addressing other organizational needs, such as a top 4RHD. 

 

Secondly, I believe our FWD depth IS sustainable, we now have guys with legit potential, developing right in our own backyard. Marinating in the minors for a couple years. Klim, Karlsson, McDonough, Hoglander, Lockwood.... Lind woulda still been here but we lost him to an expansion team. Kinda sucks because that woulda been another FWD in our system. in 8 years we managed to draft a very strong core, be thankful we have a team and not a bunch of prospects at this point in time, because we'd be in a perennial rebuild like the Coyotes have been and how long it too Buffalo. We're very fortunate to have not spent much time in the basement like a lot of teams have in the last 10-15 years rebuilding.

 

If we were to somehow magically land Dobson, he comes in at a 3 year cost controlled cap hit of 4mil. Whatever we ship out, will be greater than 4 mil, it will not be that hard to make that cap work if it was someone like Dobson (one can dream though)

 

We may have moved 2 1sts in the last 3 years, but NYI has moved 4 in the last 6, 3 in the last 3 years. They have sacrificed the future BIG TIME and their drafting record the years prior to that, dating back to 2009, do not back up those kind of moves. If you think our organizational depth is shallow, theres is 100ft on shore.

 

There is a difference between competing and contending. Islanders are very far from contending and much much closer to rebuilding, something they probably should have started slowly doing the past 3-4 years. Instead they have gone all in and inked a bunch of older players and given up a bunch of 1sts. They will be mediocre at best. Whats the point of competing if you arent going to contend? The whole point is to win a cup, not just compete and make games exciting for 82 games.

 

I find it odd that 2 years for NYI's pending UFA's is plenty of time for them, but 5 years for Vancouver and its youthful core is not enough? You're panicking already about things 5+ years down the road, but its no sweat for NYI who hasnt drafted anything in 4 years and only drafted and produced 2 NHLers in the last 6.

 

NYI's cap situation can resolve itself all it wants, they still lack youth and talent. Who is going to want to sign with a rebuilding bottom of the league team in a few years? No one. Other than guys looking to get paid and are UFA's which typically are 28+ so once again you ink guys just passing their prime to long term deals and in a few years they are dead weight and you're back in the same cycle you were years prior... Old...no youth... and dead weight.

 

Like really, look at NYI's roster... look at their drafting record.... Tell me who is going to take over for the vets that are holding a spot right now. They have no real trade chips aside from some of the younger guys on the team and Pageau. Other than that, its guys over 30 that wont fetch much. Similar to when Benning had to deal with Burrows, Bieksa, Hansen etc.... Guys that didnt hold a ton of value and shortly after being traded, their careers were done. 

 

Hoglander isn't basically Garland.  Garland's 5 x 5 production was almost elite last season.   And even his pedigree.   Just was ignored and ignored, despite leading the CHL in points the year after he was skipped etc.   That created gigantic chip's on his shoulder's.   5 x 5 he was up there with Miller and EP as far as his play was.   Better then EP if you include the entire season.    And like EP, he draws a lot of penalties, both using his skill and his mouth/chippy play retaliation penalties  (pest).   All he's done is prove everyone wrong time and time again, and last half there was rumblings Bruce wasn't that fond of him for some reason, so he's still going out there to prove he belongs. 

 

Hoglander has a chance to prove his mettle to start this season.  Otherwise likely he'd be our 13th forward.   Ilya M took his spot for sure.   He's blocked this season on a healthy team... will have to have an amazing start to bump someone out, waiver eligibility comes into play as well.   Kuzmo will get a chance to play in the top six/nine as well. 

 

We can't assume Hoglander is going to make the NHL on a long term basis yet.    Podz and Hogs we need to get some great value off their RFA deals ... I do agree that one of our expensive forwards likely ends up in a trade to improve our D.    Feel it's most likely going to be about cap space, and a UFA though.  At least to start. 

 

Who that is and what target that is ... is really tough to pin down.    And it's going to take time.   As for prospect rankings, agree with Whalstrom off their list, they hover around 30th overall...we aren't really that much better though, and hover around 26th.   So looks like both teams need prospects. 

 

Still think the team takes a run at Severson.  Maybe even during this season ... See us trying to sign him in the off-season, and move on from Brock as the most likely scenario.  It's just my spidey sense, plus some critical thinking.   Brock's pay will cover Severson's next deal, and the return i see coming back for Brock although lighter then we'd probably like, should include a decent D project, and a pick.   Feel this could happen anytime from now to next years draft.     Garland and maybe Horvat until he signs, are also of course in the mix.   

[Alflives]

3 hours ago, IBatch said:

Hoglander isn't basically Garland.  Garland's 5 x 5 production was almost elite last season.   And even his pedigree.   Just was ignored and ignored, despite leading the CHL in points the year after he was skipped etc.   That created gigantic chip's on his shoulder's.   5 x 5 he was up there with Miller and EP as far as his play was.   Better then EP if you include the entire season.    And like EP, he draws a lot of penalties, both using his skill and his mouth/chippy play retaliation penalties  (pest).   All he's done is prove everyone wrong time and time again, and last half there was rumblings Bruce wasn't that fond of him for some reason, so he's still going out there to prove he belongs. 

 

Hoglander has a chance to prove his mettle to start this season.  Otherwise likely he'd be our 13th forward.   Ilya M took his spot for sure.   He's blocked this season on a healthy team... will have to have an amazing start to bump someone out, waiver eligibility comes into play as well.   Kuzmo will get a chance to play in the top six/nine as well. 

 

We can't assume Hoglander is going to make the NHL on a long term basis yet.    Podz and Hogs we need to get some great value off their RFA deals ... I do agree that one of our expensive forwards likely ends up in a trade to improve our D.    Feel it's most likely going to be about cap space, and a UFA though.  At least to start. 

 

Who that is and what target that is ... is really tough to pin down.    And it's going to take time.   As for prospect rankings, agree with Whalstrom off their list, they hover around 30th overall...we aren't really that much better though, and hover around 26th.   So looks like both teams need prospects. 

 

Still think the team takes a run at Severson.  Maybe even during this season ... See us trying to sign him in the off-season, and move on from Brock as the most likely scenario.  It's just my spidey sense, plus some critical thinking.   Brock's pay will cover Severson's next deal, and the return i see coming back for Brock although lighter then we'd probably like, should include a decent D project, and a pick.   Feel this could happen anytime from now to next years draft.     Garland and maybe Horvat until he signs, are also of course in the mix.   

Hard to see us trading Bo, even if he’s not extended come TDL 2023.  

[Ballisticsports.]

16 hours ago, Coconuts said:

Teams don't move players like Dobson very often though, and even if he were on the market the Isles would be wanting players of significance as opposed to picks and prospects given they're a team looking to compete not build. Pettersson, Hughes, they'd likely be looking for players of that caliber in return. Teams just don't move high end RD very often, particularly when they're team controlled RFA's. Top end RD are arguably harder to find than top flight center's. 

 

I also disagree with your assessment of where we're at in regards to 1st round picks. Rebuilding or not we're an organization with a shallow prospect pool and the emphasis should be on remedying that as opposed to shipping out picks imo. Hughes, Pettersson, Podkolzin, they're not going to be young forever and we're going to need to draft and develop that next wave or players or risk having a talent gap similar to the one we began our rebuild with. The easiest way acquire top end talent is to draft and develop it yourself, it's much more costly to try and acquire it from other teams and teams will typically try to lock their top talent down. 

 

As a team that's likely to be middle of the pack any top prospect we draft is more likely to be your "wait and see" sort of prospect as opposed to your "jumping in sooner than later" type of prospect but that doesn't make them any less valuable. As this team takes steps forwards it'll also age and players who were once top players will show signs of decline. It's always important to balance drafting and developing the future of the team with managing a competitive roster. Plus, it's not as if we've shown ourselves to be contenders yet so the argument that we should be moving out picks and prospects to try and get over a perceived hump doesn't hold much merit. 

 

As for team construction, most of our roster is either just past 25, or closer to 30. The youth of the roster is skewed by a few players like Podkolzin, Hoglander, Pettersson, Hughes, and maybe Rathbone. And like I said, those young players will age, we'll need more youth in the pipeline developing who are hopefully able to jump in as part of the next wave. We're an organization with a serious lack of both quality center and D prospects in the system, I'd argue we need to hold on to our picks and use them to address that. 

That is what JR commented on , He said they had good players but wasn't very well constructed He has the dilemma of how to untangle it and make it work, but you need other teams to want what you are offering and not give away the future either. The cap, new contracts (now/future), age players, player development (implementing ELC players with your Core) They have work to do and tough gutsy decisions to make

[EdgarM]

18 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I'm not going to touch on your expectations as only you can really gauge where those were at. But I will argue that things like players only meetings, while valuable, are mythologized by fanbases and sensationalized by the media. The bits we actually catch wind of, whether they be attempts at building team cohesion, at facilitating group discussion, or any other number of things are microcosms of a team dynamic and aren't reflective of how a team actually operates and interacts with each other. 

 

We as a fanbase don't actually get a whole lot of insight into the day to day bits, and as a result can't actually build an accurate picture. But what does often happen is we as a fanbase latch on to the bits we can and try to fill in the blanks. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's normal, but it's also worth acknowledging our role in how we perceive the team.

 

All of this is part of why I think the whole Miller vs Horvat thing is overblown, we really don't know a whole lot about the day to day and game to game leadership dynamics and while a game to game analysis can contribute to group knowledge it still doesn't paint the whole picture. We as fans can only know what we perceive or are told by the team, players, or media, but even all of those contributors combined don't give us anything resembling the whole picture.  

I agree  we don't get much insight into what goes on behind closed doors but what we do see is the outcome and final product on the ice. We see from game to game and year to year, how the team performs. We see what every team member does as well. 

If we see big changes like the beginning of last season and then we see how near the end of the season, there was a big difference in team performance. What do you perceive as the reason for this drastic change? 

Yes coaching changes, but does the leadership on the team partly responsible too? Do they not have a role to play improving the teams performance? 

If its "just a letter on the jersey" then why put anything on their jersey then in the first place? Its like we don't want them to be responsible other then going to talk to the referees etc.

As I said, I guess my expectations are too high for them, my mistake. I remember great Captains who took their responsibilities a lot differently then todays "Leaders".

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Alflives said:

Hard to see us trading Bo, even if he’s not extended come TDL 2023.  

If he's not extended by the TDL we can't trade him.  At least for a quite awhile yet. He's either going somewhere else as a UFA or going to have a bunch of trade protection the first five years of his deal with us.   I don't see us trading Bo either.  Still believe he will get signed.   Unless management doesn't find 6.5-7.35 palatable, which is understandable.   Worst case just like Miller is he walks for nothing isn't it?   Or is it.  I don't know. 

[spook007]

3 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

That is what JR commented on , He said they had good players but wasn't very well constructed He has the dilemma of how to untangle it and make it work, but you need other teams to want what you are offering and not give away the future either. The cap, new contracts (now/future), age players, player development (implementing ELC players with your Core) They have work to do and tough gutsy decisions to make

Yep, it takes two to tango...

Everyone is aware, what Canucks are looking for, so it won't come easy. 

Actually like he is preparing people and players alike, that changes may come, which they may not like.

[AnthonyG]

10 hours ago, IBatch said:

These guys are pros and get the cycles. It's not like they don't have any youth either.   Whalstrom looks legit to them, the same way we view Podz,   and could make a difference soon.   We said the same thing about Horvat.   He's still here (for now anyways), and this team went to back to back conference finals and then missed last season.   It's not like they are all over the hill.    Maybe they do go the re-set route, but if that's the case, Lou will be 100% parting with vets.   There is a better chance Barzal is traded then Dobson.   And for us that really doesn't make a lot of sense but sure some other teams would be interested.

 

 

The only time in our teams history, we got a young promising D (also 22, four years in already) was when we traded Bure for Jovo ... and that also cost us Hedican.   So it cost us a HHOFer in his prime, who went on and had his best seasons on a different club (which relied heavily on Bure, more then we ever did), and a top four D who was just entering his best years too (and went on to win a cup in CAR) ... One could easily debate if Bure mended fences and stayed, same with Hedican, and Linden was never traded, that team could have won a cup.    

 

We never got to see Bure and Mogilny light it up together on separate lines for what could have been, the best years in club history. In other words the cost was massive.   Losing Bure was one of the worst days for Canuck fans.   A major gut punch ... and the return absolutely seemed awful at the time.   Goes to show what these guys cost though doesn't it? 

 

Back to Dobson.   Sure Lou would trade him, for QHs plus or EP plus.    That's the cost.   Lou built TO's best regular season all-time team.   TO's had some bad luck, like Van did against CHI, just keep playing cup contenders in the first round lol.   It's great fun.  

 Then he hired Trotz, on a team, that just lost Tavares, which had  a shocking effect, never seen a team go from letting in 280ish goals, down to 210ish, let alone doing it without their star franchise center.    Tavares and Stamkos are considered the best UFAs all-time...given their ages (27) and pedigrees, hard to argue against that.   Their fans booed Tavares relentlessly lol, and rightly so since he did lead them on.   Remember that if Horvat isn't traded and leaves ... so far he's saying all the right things, and hasn't led anyone on. 

 

I could see Lou selling his older guys at the TDL, and restructuring their forward group with younger UFAs,  and or pulling the plug for a couple seasons to re-set behind Barzal.   Consider Barzal their Landseskog.  

 

My favourite Lou quote regarding TO "we worked awfully hard, to get the best odds at first overall" ...  he's one of the best in the business.   And has been for decades.    At least Allvin has JR... a rookie GM versus Lou?   Or JB vs Lou... ouch us.   

Bolded

 

NYI hasnt really had a major facelift in quite some time, it reminds me of Torts’s 2013 Canucks. It stinks. Its been the same guys for too long and then Lou has added some of his darlings from back in the day such as an old and over the hill Parise, Palmieri, Greene and Schneider. He has a bit of an attachment isssue, wouldnt you say? Bringing guys who were once good for him, hoping they can resurrect their careers. If you look at the returns we got for our vets, it wasnt anything significant. Where NYI is in terms of talent in their organization, they desperately need talent and especially up front. That team is slow and boring.

 

 

Lets pump the brakes on giving Lou alllll the credit for building TO’s best regular season team all time. 
He did not draft

Reilly

Nylander

Marner

Those are 3 pretty major pieces to inherit.

 

He was very very lucky to win a lottery and draft a generational goal scorer in Matthews. What would Toronto be without that 1st overall? 

His only real move in TO was acquiring Andersen. Outside of that, nothing notable at all, unless you consider Marleau and Hainsey?

 

Burke built the 2010-11 team, not Gillis, not Nonis, Burke and it started with drafting from ‘99-04. The other GMs just found the easy pieces, trades and UFA. 

 

As I mentioned above, there will not be a ton of value in the veteran players, at least not the type of returns that organization needs. They need 1st round picks big time.
 

 

If you look at their draft history from 2014-2022 and then look at VAN’s drafting from 2005-2013 and then look at the age of our roster in 2014 and NYI’s current forward groups age, its nearly parallel and we all know what happened after 2014-15, had one last good regular season, the twins aged another year, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen etc… and from there we parted those vets for low 2nd and 4th round picks and prospects. To which none of them amounted to anything at the NHL level. Then we lost the twins to retirement and got nothing in return to try and replace them.

 

Without having a top 3 pick and no 1st overalls to rapidly turn our organization around, we got very, very lucky that we had a pick in almost every single draft for 5 years, work out to be impact players. Will NYI get so lucky to land an EP? QH? Boeser? Podz? all within a few years to right the ship.

 

Also, what young UFA’s are you expecting to sign? They are going to be 27-29 looking for long term deals and then you’ll find yourself in the same position a few years down the road and be drafting middle of the pack. Everyone complained about JB signing UFA’s as place holders, yet you dont seem to think it wouldnt be a bad idea for NYI?

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Bolded

 

NYI hasnt really had a major facelift in quite some time, it reminds me of Torts’s 2013 Canucks. It stinks. Its been the same guys for too long and then Lou has added some of his darlings from back in the day such as an old and over the hill Parise, Palmieri, Greene and Schneider. He has a bit of an attachment isssue, wouldnt you say? Bringing guys who were once good for him, hoping they can resurrect their careers. If you look at the returns we got for our vets, it wasnt anything significant. Where NYI is in terms of talent in their organization, they desperately need talent and especially up front. That team is slow and boring.

 

 

Lets pump the brakes on giving Lou alllll the credit for building TO’s best regular season team all time. 
He did not draft

Reilly

Nylander

Marner

Those are 3 pretty major pieces to inherit.

 

He was very very lucky to win a lottery and draft a generational goal scorer in Matthews. What would Toronto be without that 1st overall? 

His only real move in TO was acquiring Andersen. Outside of that, nothing notable at all, unless you consider Marleau and Hainsey?

 

Burke built the 2010-11 team, not Gillis, not Nonis, Burke and it started with drafting from ‘99-04. The other GMs just found the easy pieces, trades and UFA. 

 

As I mentioned above, there will not be a ton of value in the veteran players, at least not the type of returns that organization needs. They need 1st round picks big time.
 

 

If you look at their draft history from 2014-2022 and then look at VAN’s drafting from 2005-2013 and then look at the age of our roster in 2014 and NYI’s current forward groups age, its nearly parallel and we all know what happened after 2014-15, had one last good regular season, the twins aged another year, Bieksa, Burrows, Hansen etc… and from there we parted those vets for low 2nd and 4th round picks and prospects. To which none of them amounted to anything at the NHL level. Then we lost the twins to retirement and got nothing in return to try and replace them.

 

Without having a top 3 pick and no 1st overalls to rapidly turn our organization around, we got very, very lucky that we had a pick in almost every single draft for 5 years, work out to be impact players. Will NYI get so lucky to land an EP? QH? Boeser? Podz? all within a few years to right the ship.

 

Also, what young UFA’s are you expecting to sign? They are going to be 27-29 looking for long term deals and then you’ll find yourself in the same position a few years down the road and be drafting middle of the pack. Everyone complained about JB signing UFA’s as place holders, yet you dont seem to think it wouldnt be a bad idea for NYI?

Sorry i just don't see that.   Barzal, Dobson and Whalstrom.. it's not chump change.   Sure they will get there and maybe sooner then later, but that's a lot more to work with then 2013-  2014 with an aging Edler, and Tanev and an 18-19 year old Horvat as far as youth goes.  Plus Sorokin.   There is commonalities.   But we still aren't getting Dobson for anything less then EP or QHs plus plus. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by IBatch

[AnthonyG]

11 hours ago, IBatch said:

Hoglander isn't basically Garland.  Garland's 5 x 5 production was almost elite last season.   And even his pedigree.   Just was ignored and ignored, despite leading the CHL in points the year after he was skipped etc.   That created gigantic chip's on his shoulder's.   5 x 5 he was up there with Miller and EP as far as his play was.   Better then EP if you include the entire season.    And like EP, he draws a lot of penalties, both using his skill and his mouth/chippy play retaliation penalties  (pest).   All he's done is prove everyone wrong time and time again, and last half there was rumblings Bruce wasn't that fond of him for some reason, so he's still going out there to prove he belongs. 

 

Hoglander has a chance to prove his mettle to start this season.  Otherwise likely he'd be our 13th forward.   Ilya M took his spot for sure.   He's blocked this season on a healthy team... will have to have an amazing start to bump someone out, waiver eligibility comes into play as well.   Kuzmo will get a chance to play in the top six/nine as well. 

 

We can't assume Hoglander is going to make the NHL on a long term basis yet.    Podz and Hogs we need to get some great value off their RFA deals ... I do agree that one of our expensive forwards likely ends up in a trade to improve our D.    Feel it's most likely going to be about cap space, and a UFA though.  At least to start. 

 

Who that is and what target that is ... is really tough to pin down.    And it's going to take time.   As for prospect rankings, agree with Whalstrom off their list, they hover around 30th overall...we aren't really that much better though, and hover around 26th.   So looks like both teams need prospects. 

 

Still think the team takes a run at Severson.  Maybe even during this season ... See us trying to sign him in the off-season, and move on from Brock as the most likely scenario.  It's just my spidey sense, plus some critical thinking.   Brock's pay will cover Severson's next deal, and the return i see coming back for Brock although lighter then we'd probably like, should include a decent D project, and a pick.   Feel this could happen anytime from now to next years draft.     Garland and maybe Horvat until he signs, are also of course in the mix.   

Bolded

Hoglander and Garland are quite similar in many ways, not just size. But, Style of play, work in the corners and down low, both are shifty and strong on their feet. I would argue that Hoglander is more skilled and has a higher potential than Garland, he has better hands and is more creative. There are many similarities and keep in mind, that was only Hoglanders 2nd season and he got injured and put up more than half as many goals as Garland who is in his D+7 season. Also, being 19/20, you should be one of the higher scorers in the CHL, you look at the majority of the leaders, they are 19-20.

 

 

Ilya may have taken Hoglanders spot, he’s also signed for 5mil so you kinda gotta play him. Also what happens if Hoglander shows he deserves a spot on this team? Who do you think they move to make room for him once everyone is 100%? Do we really need Garland AND Hoglander? Or one or the other?

 

Out of our group of forwards on the team and the guys in our system, where do you see the closest match in the system. 
Hoglander is the closest comparison to Garland and therefore Garland becomes redundant.

 

 

The prospect rankings may be close, but you look at the core of both teams, we have a much younger core and do have some guys now beginning to marinate in the minors. NYI really doesnt have much and hasnt had much in terms of prospects in a long while. They have had countless 1st round picks not work out and have also moved a handful of 1sts, hell LL traded a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd for JPG. The really need to start recouping before its too late, similar to how everyone talked about Gillis needing to rebuild sooner because we had no prospect depth and we had an aging core. If anyone needs prospects, its NYI before VAN. Our core will be a mainstay for much longer than NYIs roster holders.

 

 

If we do move Brock, I just hope its once we have identified his replacement within our system. If Karlsson or Klim show a lot or promise, or Lekkermaki. We need to be sure to have a potential 25-30 goal scorer before shipping him out without having a way of making up for that. We need guys providing offence on ELCs if we are making lateral cap moves.

[AnthonyG]

34 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Sorry i just don't see that.   Barzal, Dobson and Whalstrom.. it's not chump change.   Sure they will get there and maybe sooner then later, but that's a lot more to work with then 2013-  2014 with an aging Edler, and Tanev and an 18-19 year old Horvat as far as youth goes.  Plus Sorokin.   There is commonalities.   But we still aren't getting Dobson for anything less then EP or QHs plus plus. 

Its not chump change but its a long way from contending. Tanev was 23 in 2014 and Edler was 27.…….. they are literally just entering or in the middle of their prime.

 

Sorokin will be 28 next year. In a couple more years of just being “competitive” their #1 goalie will be heading towards a decline and they’ll need to rebuild completely because they have only drafted and produced 4 NHLers in the last 8 years and its still yet to be determined how their future draftees turn out.

 

Bolded

This is the point I am making, they have only a few young players who are making an impact right now…. They have quite a lot of older, slower, declining players on the roster and you begin to look around as to who is going to replace them…. Definitely not any of the 1st round picks they traded away 4/6 years. They are hurting for picks and prospects, more so than we are. We have at least 8 impactful roster players under 28… they have…. 4?

 

Dobson may be a pipe dream, but I wouldnt put it out of reach. NYI will need to make some drastic moves at some point in the near future, because after this season, if they dont make playoffs,  its going to be a reality check for them