Canada to start offering doctor-assisted death to the mentally ill

[Coda]

https://nationalpost.com/health/canada-mental-illness-maid-medical-aid-in-dying/wcm/944c8b7f-4c78-489d-9758-7d87733b8d78/amp/

“The expert panel has been instructed to recommend safeguards. For Dr. Sonu Gaind, a past president of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, the most fundamental safeguard has already been bypassed, because there is no scientific evidence, he says, that doctors can predict when a mental illness will be irremediable.  Everything else goes out the window.”

 

Not sure I like where this is going.  I’m not against the idea of medically-assisted death entirely: For some with painful terminal illnesses it really may be the most humane thing.  However, our society used to promote trying to help the mentally ill overcome their mental illnesses (at least in theory: in practice funding for mental health has been abysmal).  Now we’re going to tell the guy who wants to jump off the bridge “hey don’t do that…let’s get you to a clinic…where you can kill yourself with less mess.”  
 

People with mental illnesses very often have their brain working against their best interests…such as staying alive and getting healthy.  

[JM_]

5 minutes ago, Coda said:

https://nationalpost.com/health/canada-mental-illness-maid-medical-aid-in-dying/wcm/944c8b7f-4c78-489d-9758-7d87733b8d78/amp/

“The expert panel has been instructed to recommend safeguards. For Dr. Sonu Gaind, a past president of the Canadian Psychiatric Association, the most fundamental safeguard has already been bypassed, because there is no scientific evidence, he says, that doctors can predict when a mental illness will be irremediable.  Everything else goes out the window.”

 

Not sure I like where this is going.  I’m not against the idea of medically-assisted death entirely: For some with painful terminal illnesses it really may be the most humane thing.  However, our society used to promote trying to help the mentally ill overcome their mental illnesses (at least in theory: in practice funding for mental health has been abysmal).  Now we’re going to tell the guy who wants to jump off the bridge “hey don’t do that…let’s get you to a clinic…where you can kill yourself with less mess.”  
 

People with mental illnesses very often have their brain working against their best interests…such as staying alive and getting healthy.  

There's  lot of tough questions in the article. But I don't get the impression that anyone is stopping trying to treat people, this would be in very rare cases and its not suicide on tap.

 

[King Heffy]

I'm in favour of euthanasia for terminal illness, but this is too far for me.  The issue of ability to give informed consent is very concerning.

Edited April 4, 2022 by King Heffy

[Odd.]

Hey, feeling suicidal? No worries, just sign here _____________. Enjoy your suicide!

[Down by the River]

Just a few years ago, psychologists were noting that the field lacked clear empirical evidence regarding whether persons with mental illnesses should be allowed to opt into physician assisted dying when they had a comorbid terminal medical illness. The idea was that it might not be a good idea to have someone with depression opt into physician assisted dying due to their terminal cancer diagnosis in case the depression was introducing this desire. If the depression were addressed, they may no longer wish to go ahead with the assisted suicide. 

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297746600_A_Conceptual_Framework_for_Thinking_About_Physician-Assisted_Death_for_Persons_With_a_Mental_Disorder

 

Now it is like this entire question has been skipped and Canada will allow physician assisted dying for persons with a mental illness even when no comorbid terminal illness is present. It doesn't seem clear that enough of the empirical literature has progressed to know enough about a person's state of mind during a mental illness. 

[Warhippy]

We literally euthanize cats and dogs just for the sole reason that NOBODY wants them.  We force people suffering from any number of reasons from health to mental to exist in pain and misery.  Neglected, derided and often times cast down by society out of ignorance and apathy.

 

I much prefer cats and dogs to people; but shouldn't we just at this point; with almost 8 BILLION people on this planet, people to choose their time?  These individuals will take their lives one way or another if it is within their power; many times leaving it to family members and some times children to discover.  Traumatizing them for life.

 

I say if we can not spay or neuter people we at least give them the option of bowing out of this life with some modicum of integrity.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Warhippy

[Coda]

14 minutes ago, JM_ said:

There's  lot of tough questions in the article. But I don't get the impression that anyone is stopping trying to treat people, this would be in very rare cases and its not suicide on tap.

 

That kind of is what this is.  Doctors stopping trying to treat someone who is mentally ill and allowing them to decide to die instead.  

 

I'm sure some "safeguards" will be implemented.  But as the article notes, there is nowhere near the same kind of medical knowledge available today to decipher when a mental illness is irreversible compared to physical illnesses.  

[Ballisticsports.]

5 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I'm in favour of euthanasia for terminal illness, but this is too far for me.  The issue of ability to give informed consent is very concerning.

8 Yrs ago next month, my step father suffering from ALS never had that option of assisted and took his life on his own which shocked us all and were not prepared for.

I think of how hard it was for him to do and die alone without saying goodbye

.Assisted Medical is much more humane and people can be with their loved ones when passing

[Down by the River]

4 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

We literally euthanize cats and dogs just for the sole reason that NOBODY wants them.  We force people suffering from any number of reasons from health to mental to exist in pain and misery.  Neglected, derided and often times cast down by society out of ignorance and apathy.

 

I much prefer cats and dogs to people; but shouldn't we just at this point; with almost 8 BILLION people on this planet, people to choose their time?  These individuals will take their lives one way or another if it is within their power; many times leaving it to family members and some times children to discover.  Traumatizing them for life.

 

I say if we can not spay or neuter people we at least give them the option of bowing out of this life with some modicum of integrity.

This is factually inaccurate and has been known to be wrong for nearly 40 years. If people do not have access to one method they do not just turn around and find a second method (sure, it is possible, but it is less typical). Suicide displacement is not common. The most well-known of such studies was the evaluation of suicide rates in England before versus after moving from coal to natural gas ovens. Suicide dropped by 30% due to this change and the drop was not displaced in future years with a different method. 

 

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92319314#:~:text=In England%2C death by asphyxiation,gas%2C which has almost none.

 

Your equating of spaying people with allowing them assisted dying is bizarre. 

[Down by the River]

4 minutes ago, ba;;isticsports said:

8 Yrs ago next month, my step father suffering from ALS never had that option of assisted and took his life on his own which shocked us all and were not prepared for.

I think of how hard it was for him to do and die alone without saying goodbye

.Assisted Medical is much more humane and people can be with their loved ones when passing

What you went through sounds awful... and what your step-father went through especially awful. But, this article isn't about ALS and other terminal illnesses. It is about whether, for example, someone with schizophrenia and no other underlying diagnosis should be able to elect physician-assisted dying. To me, this is a much more difficult question. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, just that figuring out the circumstances in which it should/should not happen do not seem black and white at this point. 

[Coda]

26 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

We literally euthanize cats and dogs just for the sole reason that NOBODY wants them.  We force people suffering from any number of reasons from health to mental to exist in pain and misery.  Neglected, derided and often times cast down by society out of ignorance and apathy.

 

I much prefer cats and dogs to people; but shouldn't we just at this point; with almost 8 BILLION people on this planet, people to choose their time?  These individuals will take their lives one way or another if it is within their power; many times leaving it to family members and some times children to discover.  Traumatizing them for life.

 

I say if we can not spay or neuter people we at least give them the option of bowing out of this life with some modicum of integrity.

The thing is suicide due to depression or other mental illnesses would be preventable in the vast majority of cases given the right environmental, economic, substance use etc. changes in an individual's life.  This is demonstrated by the difference in suicide rates in different communities in Canada.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada

 

In 2006, Health Canada reported that suicide rates were "five to seven times higher for First Nations youth than for non-Aboriginal youth" and that suicide rates among Inuit youth "were among the highest in the world, at 11 times the national average".^[26][27]

In their 2007 report,^[28]: 189 the Aboriginal Healing Foundation (AHF) noted that while the suicide rate in Canada overall had declined, for Aboriginal people, particularly Aboriginal youth, the rates had continued to rise. "From the ages of 10 to 29, Aboriginal youth on reserves are 5 to 6 times more likely to die of suicide than their peers in the general population. Over a third of all deaths among Aboriginal youth are attributable to suicide. Although the gender difference is smaller than among the non-Aboriginal population, males are more likely to die by suicide, while females make attempts more often."^[28]: xv

 

As a nation I think we should be saying "Let's strategize how we can improve the lives of Indigenous people on reserves and help them recover from their mental illnesses: Canada messed them up in the first place with generational trauma from Residential schools and other things", not "Oh, it's too bad so many Indigenous people are mentally ill and suicidal...but let's make their deaths as comfortable as possible."  

Edited April 4, 2022 by Coda

[Warhippy]

9 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

This is factually inaccurate and has been known to be wrong for nearly 40 years. If people do not have access to one method they do not just turn around and find a second method (sure, it is possible, but it is less typical). Suicide displacement is not common. The most well-known of such studies was the evaluation of suicide rates in England before versus after moving from coal to natural gas ovens. Suicide dropped by 30% due to this change and the drop was not displaced in future years with a different method. 

 

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92319314#:~:text=In England%2C death by asphyxiation,gas%2C which has almost none.

 

Your equating of spaying people with allowing them assisted dying is bizarre. 

My equating is far from it.  Why do we afford animals more dignity than people?

Your 14 year old study and highlighted statement I might ONLY indicates that by taking away the single easiest mode of suicide that rates dropped.  It literally only suggests that by making it more difficult people instead do other things.  That it is in the heat of the moment they do these things.  it's impulsive.  it doesn't mean for a second things dropped.  Give them the means and they'll do it.  It's literally like taking heroin away from a heroin addict.  Now they can't do it because their option is gone.  Give them access to heroin again and let's all go down together.  England changed coal fired ovens for gas.  Numbers dropped 30% immediately.  Haven't dropped since.  Picking up what I'm putting down?

 

Taking away the means does not mean the actual rates have dropped.  They've only been suppressed.

 

As for my statement about spaying people; it tracks very clearly with my statement about giving animals who are in pain or literally just not wanted more dignity and options than those humans seeking the same.  It's amusing how people pick and choose what is or is not acceptable based on not only species but also opinion.

 

We have 8 billion people on this planet.  People will still continue to commit suicide.  They will still do drugs.  They will still get abortions.  No matter how many studies are dredged up from whoever writes them for whatever reason.  Ban drugs?  Ya that worked.  Take away one simple and literally easy means of suicide in your own home?  Darn but look...the numbers don't drop further afterwards; ban abortions.  Well I know a guy in an alley.

 

Just because you suggest that taking away the means equates to a drop in the numbers doesn't mean that people aren't still considering it or wanting to do it.  As a person who has buried close to a near dozen people in his life to suicide.  Trust me, pills and booze.  Cars in garages with hoses in the exhaust.  Ropes in garages.  Razors in a bathroom.  Small mountains of blow.  A shotgun or rifle.  They'll still get it done.

 

Give people the option to choose their own time and place.  They deserve it.

[Lillooet_Hillbilly]

I'm a schizophrenic and to me this is utter bull#**@

[Warhippy]

6 minutes ago, Coda said:

The thing is suicide due to depression or other mental illnesses would be preventable in the vast majority of cases given the right environmental, economic, substance use etc. changes in an individual's life.  This is demonstrated by the difference in suicide rates in different communities in Canada.  

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Canada

 

In 2006, Health Canada reported that suicide rates were "five to seven times higher for First Nations youth than for non-Aboriginal youth" and that suicide rates among Inuit youth "were among the highest in the world, at 11 times the national average".^[26][27]

In their 2007 report,^[28]: 189 the Aboriginal Healing Foundation (AHF) noted that while the suicide rate in Canada overall had declined, for Aboriginal people, particularly Aboriginal youth, the rates had continued to rise. "From the ages of 10 to 29, Aboriginal youth on reserves are 5 to 6 times more likely to die of suicide than their peers in the general population. Over a third of all deaths among Aboriginal youth are attributable to suicide. Although the gender difference is smaller than among the non-Aboriginal population, males are more likely to die by suicide, while females make attempts more often."^[28]: xv

 

As a nation I think we should be saying "Let's strategize how we can improve the lives of Indigenous people on reserves and help them recover from their mental illnesses: Canada messed them up in the first place with generational trauma from Residential schools and other things", not "Oh, it's too bad so many Indigenous people are mentally ill and suicidal...but let's make their deaths as comfortable as possible."  

As a first nations person I am fully aware of this.

 

We're talking about a system wide reset though;  because at this point nothing else will change it.  We can prevent it.  Yes.  But for how long?  We continue, as a people; to get promised help.  Decades later and numerous governments we've seen no change.  There's no will to change it all.  What is it like to continually get promised hope, change and help.  Only to see it never arrive and then be ostracized because of it for simply asking where the promised help was that we'd been waiting for.

 

Without a full reset from the floor to the ceiling about this, and mental health as a whole in this nation.  What you suggest; will never come to pass.

[higgyfan]

I have mixed feelings on this subject, so I would have to see more information regarding

the steps/stages to be followed before coming to a decision.

 

I worked for many years in psychiatry and had many clients that suffered from severe and

persistent mental illnesses.  Very few severe mental illnesses are curable and the medications

that are currently offered are oftentimes unbearable.  Schizophrenia is often diagnosed during the

teenage years, which can severely compromises the ability to develop social skills, rational

thinking, trust (of others and one's self), connection with family members, an overall sense of

wellbeing and so many other skills that prepare a young person to build a healthy sense of self

and to develop a satisfactory life.

 

I can't tell you how horrific it is to be plagued with this (and other) mental illness.  Running the fine

line between emotionally dull or horrifically insane for years on end takes a huge toll on them;

in every imaginal way.  Always being suspicious, unsafe, inner voices making nasty comments

on what you're doing (or not doing), what other people think of you and so on.  Sometimes it can

elevate into terrifying or threatening thoughts. No friends, no family no job, no emotional security.

Finally escalating until picked up and committed to the psyche ward.  Big increase in medication(s)

gradually brings you back to the dull, zombilike self, which has its own suffering; although muted.

I have a great deal of respect for these folks.  They can brave through excruciating emotional

pain and in my experience, rarely complain about it.  Given what I have witnessed, I can understand

why it drives some of these people to end their lives.

 

I could go on in the same vain about the diagnosis of bipolar disorder, which is another illness that

hijacks a person's liberty, in a different way, but with similar results.

 

Doctor assisted death for people suffering from a major and persistent mental illness is a

terribly complicated option which needs to be taken seriously; whether we are for or against the

outcome.

 

Sorry for going on about this.  It is a subject close to my heart.  The public know so little

about these medical conditions, so I like to pipe in when the subject arises.

 

[SilentSam]

A very interesting topic indeed.. not unlike but somewhat dis-similar to what exists for me as my health and quality of life dissipates over the oncoming years.

In a my clarity in this moment,

I would say that I would sign a non resuscitation order , and be euthanized if I became terminal, incapacitated, or have loss of control of my life.. mentally or physically.

 

Whats to say everyone can not?

 

Why should we not grant everyone , regardless of health and well being, mentally or physically,  that option.

 

At some point a discrimination issue will be made of it by someone who is mentally unwell, to be able to have that option, and take that responsibility, rather than live in the extended empathy of others.

 

I take pause in all my thoughts on this..

but it’s easy to understand, not all situations are the same.

But at the same time, why would we not extend the free rights of someone healthy,

to those desperately struggling over many years of mental illness, which can be so much more painful than those dealing with something physical?

[lmm]

1 hour ago, Warhippy said:

We literally euthanize cats and dogs just for the sole reason that NOBODY wants them.  We force people suffering from any number of reasons from health to mental to exist in pain and misery.  Neglected, derided and often times cast down by society out of ignorance and apathy.

 

I much prefer cats and dogs to people; but shouldn't we just at this point; with almost 8 BILLION people on this planet, people to choose their time?  These individuals will take their lives one way or another if it is within their power; many times leaving it to family members and some times children to discover.  Traumatizing them for life.

 

I say if we can not spay or neuter people we at least give them the option of bowing out of this life with some modicum of integrity.

Speaking of dogs and cats, I was walking the dog yesterday when I encountered a buddy of my dearly  departed sibling, ( who had taken their own life).

Buddy says to me "How long has it been since X______ died?"

My GF (whose dog we were walking) says to me later, "He was kind of direct, no sugar coating"

And she was correct, he didn't say "passed" or "moved on to a better place" 

So that is about 1/2 the problem, Canadians are very squeamish about death. 

I for one am happy that this dialogue is taking place because poor quality of life is revered/preserved over death at almost any cost.

 

The other 1/2 of the problem is when speaking of the mentally ill.

It is not clear whether mentally ill means depression, dementia, retardation or low IQ

there is a fear, and rightfully so, that this is the start of a kill off of unwanted low IQ persons

 

In the case of my family member, when clearing their effects I found 2 bottles of pills for depression, one was a week old and the other 15 years old.

This said to me that the depression was  cyclical and while they knew they could ride it out , they chose not to because they also knew it would return

[King Heffy]

5 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

A very interesting topic indeed.. not unlike but somewhat dis-similar to what exists for me as my health and quality of life dissipates over the oncoming years.

In a my clarity in this moment,

I would say that I would sign a non resuscitation order , and be euthanized if I became terminal, incapacitated, or have loss of control of my life.. mentally or physically.

 

Whats to say everyone can not?

 

Why should we not grant everyone , regardless of health and well being, mentally or physically,  that option.

 

At some point a discrimination issue will be made of it by someone who is mentally unwell, to be able to have that option, and take that responsibility, rather than live in the extended empathy of others.

 

I take pause in all my thoughts on this..

but it’s easy to understand, not all situations are the same.

But at the same time, why would we not extend the free rights of someone healthy,

to those desperately struggling over many years of mental illness, which can be so much more painful than those dealing with something physical?

I have no issue with that.  My problem is if someone makes that decision while suffering from mental illness, the ability to give informed consent is not as clear.

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Coda said:

That kind of is what this is.  Doctors stopping trying to treat someone who is mentally ill and allowing them to decide to die instead.  

 

I'm sure some "safeguards" will be implemented.  But as the article notes, there is nowhere near the same kind of medical knowledge available today to decipher when a mental illness is irreversible compared to physical illnesses.  

But it kind of isn't. There's a process people have to go through, and its not a guarantee that you will qualify. 

 

Its not some suicide on tap scheme. 

[SilentSam]

9 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

I have no issue with that.  My problem is if someone makes that decision while suffering from mental illness, the ability to give informed consent is not as clear.

Totally agree Hef.