Gurn Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 23 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: showing a video of Horvat getting into one fight doesn't really negate the poster's point - its a straw man response No it isn't. A strawman would be if Surfer had posted something like " Well what about this time that Iginla turned down a fight, or didn't shove back at a player that hurt one of the Flame's star players". What Surfer provided was evidence to counter the assertion that Bo is not abrasive enough. You may ignore or discount that evidence, but it is not a 'strawman'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Just now, NucknAsia said: Bo Horvat is not Wayne Gretzky and mentioning the two in the same sentence is pure nonsense so lets start there. Go read my last 2 posts. It explains the issues very well. Its all well and good to have a quiet captain, non physical IF, you can change the game offensively. 100 pt players like Sakic, Yzerman, Gretz were great captains, because THEY COULD ALTER THE GAME. Bo is not a 100 pt player. He can't go out and get his team going by scoring or setting up 2 goals in 3 shifts. He is a 50-60 pt player who plays like Taylor Pyatt. Your teammates notice that. JR has been pumping up Horvat with plenty of positive talk. He’s done the same with Miller, and especially Demko. It’s like selling anything. The seller doesn’t talk crap about his products. That’s not good business. We could be seeing a retool around Petey, Hughes, and our guys we can’t trade because if contracts (OEL) and our young guys on ELC’s (Pods, Hogs) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 5 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: Bo Horvat is not Wayne Gretzky and mentioning the two in the same sentence is pure nonsense so lets start there. Go read my last 2 posts. It explains the issues very well. Its all well and good to have a quiet captain, non physical IF, you can change the game offensively. 100 pt players like Sakic, Yzerman, Gretz were great captains, because THEY COULD ALTER THE GAME. Bo is not a 100 pt player. He can't go out and get his team going by scoring or setting up 2 goals in 3 shifts. He is a 50-60 pt player who plays like Taylor Pyatt. Your teammates notice that. If you're going to lead a team that is emotionless you have to find a way to bring emotion to them, sports need emotion. Suggesting this is an issue over fighting is ridiculously reductive and not the issue. how could you watch this team under Boudreau and say it was "emotionless"? thats confusing to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, gurn said: No it isn't. A strawman would be if Surfer had posted something like " Well what about this time that Iginla turned down a fight, or didn't shove back at a player that hurt one of the Flame's star players". What Surfer provided was evidence to counter the assertion that Bo is not abrasive enough. You may ignore or discount that evidence, but it is not a 'strawman'. Bo doesn’t need to fight to show how tough he is. He plays a game that is hard to play against. Off the puck, Bo is a beast. He’s always using his size to impede opponent’s from gaining ice. Big, heavy, and very fast. We might trade Bo (sounds like our whole club is open for sale) but I don’t think it’s wise. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 11 minutes ago, SilentSam said: I see Horvat and Miller as Grit .. I think the power forward position is a Winger who usually gets the opportunity to break out and away from the transition to offence , fed by his Center or a damn good D man. Speed and size are a combined asset , not one superior to the other. the Bo slagging is odd to me. They guy does everything well and competes hard. He's an ideal 2C imo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, gurn said: No it isn't. A strawman would be if Surfer had posted something like " Well what about this time that Iginla turned down a fight, or didn't shove back at a player that hurt one of the Flame's star players". What Surfer provided was evidence to counter the assertion that Bo is not abrasive enough. You may ignore or discount that evidence, but it is not a 'strawman'. one fight does not mean he's abrasive. and suggesting its just about fights is reductive nonsense but let's stay in that train of thought. he's had 4 fights total in his NHL career - but again that's not what this is about https://www.hockeyfights.com/players/18089 go look at his hit totals and some of the 5'8" players who have more hits. Does that scream engagement? Do you know Horvat was 208th in hits in the NHL last season? a 6'1 220 lb captain was 208th, with a total of 96 hits. Barely over 1 per game. Is that suggesting he's all in? Do you know who was ahead of him? here's some names https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/statistics Kailer Yamomoto Alex Debrincat Filip Forsberg Alex Lafrenierre (a rookie) Tomas Hertl Sorry but his lack of physical engagement is obvious. Edited June 11, 2022 by NucknAsia 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester13 Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 28 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: This bolded area says it very well....Its a great description. Bo seems to like the title of leader but doesn't want to lead the way the team NEEDS...Being as leader means 'serving your team'...its not about you, its about what do I need to do to help my team, and what do I see in my team that it needs. Bo doesn't do that. He goes about his business and plays hard, all respectful, but doesn't really seem to understand his responsibilities are greater. As I said, if you're a 100 pt player who can change the game from going and scoring the goal that's needed ok, I get you're not the physical player. But if you're not, you've got to find ways to step up when the team needs it....too many nights I don't see Bo step up and set an example... He seems like he's happy just being part of the pack...However the role of a captain is to be the alpha in the pack...Again, all we have to do is look at players like Smyl, Linden, Iginla, etc... Some people say Miller's anger isn't what the team needs. You know what, yes it is...You know why? Because that anger tells the team, I am all in, why aren't you. This means something to me, and if it doesn't to you, get off the ice. When you see a leader who is never emotional, doesn't stand up for teammates, isn't the first into the fire, you see apathy. Its very easy to also become apathetic. Toronto got rid of Kadri because he made alot of stupid mistakes, but you know why he did? Because he has a burning desire to win, because he hates losing, and everyone in Toronto knows why that team isn't winning. They have oodles of talent, without the burning desire to do what it takes to win. As you said, its not a slight on Bo, its not saying he's not a talented player, but he's not the Captain this team needs. As Shoresy would say, "He doesn't hate to lose." This is why Miller would be a better captain, because he does hate to lose. (If any of you peeps haven't watched Shoresy on Crave yet, get on it. Best hockey show of all time.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 9 minutes ago, JM_ said: the Bo slagging is odd to me. They guy does everything well and competes hard. He's an ideal 2C imo. No one is saying he isn't what you just said What people, including myself are saying is he's not the captain this team needs. Miller is, and if you need to choose between the two, which they do, you keep Miller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said: Okay let's not cherry pick quotes. Rutherford is also on record as saying that he's fairly happy with our backend. Allvin said that he wants more structure from the coaching for our defensemen. The whole idea that our defensemen are abysmal is not rooted in reality. It was a point of view that was parroted a lot last summer but was proven to be wrong through one season so far. I thought that Dickinson was going to be our answer to the 3rd line center problem last summer but after watching every game last season I have to say that I was wrong and my mind has changed. People that keep beating the drum that we have a horrible defense are very stubborn. Yes, Demko was great and a top 10, maybe even top 5 goalie in the league but that's not the only reason why we were good defensively. 2020-21 season is proof enough that we can make any goalie look bad. Hughes made huge improvements year over year, and eats up 24 mins/night. OEL has been excellent and is out there for 20+ minutes. Very happy with additions of Schenn, Burroughs, Hunt, and Juulsen. One more top 4 RHD would be great, but we have a D core that can do an adequate job. Those are Rutherford's words too. Rutherford has been repeating on every podcast/interview since the end of the season that he wants them to have a better defensive structure. After Donnie&Dhali, here's him on Seravalli's podcast. Tracking shows that Vancouver was not particularly reliable defensively but Demko was among the best in the league when accounting for environment. Edited June 11, 2022 by mll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottydzik Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Alflives said: Bo doesn’t need to fight to show how tough he is. He plays a game that is hard to play against. Off the puck, Bo is a beast. He’s always using his size to impede opponent’s from gaining ice. Big, heavy, and very fast. We might trade Bo (sounds like our whole club is open for sale) but I don’t think it’s wise. Excactly I think trading bo will be a mistake as well but if he does he better have miller locked up, I’d be okay with horvat boeser Pearson Dickson out if he has miller locked up. Boeser rathbone to Islanders Mayfield Bellows 2nd Horvat Dickson 15th to Nj 2nd Zacha Pearson 2023 3rd Wild Greenway Sign zadarov,forsberg,Paul Forsberg miller Hoglander bellows Petey Garland Podz Paul zacha highmore lu Greenway Ek Zadarov Hughes Mayfield Dermott myers Demko Edited June 11, 2022 by Scottydzik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 I don’t know how much input the Sedins have in management, but you people believe they will approve trading the captain of the team; a player they pretty much molded into the role? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 4 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: No one is saying he isn't what you just said What people, including myself are saying is he's not the captain this team needs. Miller is, and if you need to choose between the two, which they do, you keep Miller. But what are you basing this on? Whats the analysis you used to determine that Bo isn't "emotional" enough or thats what this team needs? not sure how you've come to that conclusion. Is Stamkos some kind of emotional leader? Maybe you haven't noticed the Rangers don't actually have a captain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 I still think trading Bo is a huge mistake. Trading Bo means the Canucks have extended JT. Is JT ready to be the guy? Not sure. It really depends on the return on Bo. Not interested in magic beans, and we need center and D depth. It has to be legit. For example, the Devils second isn't enough. I look around the NHL and I really don't see anything available to trade Bo for, and not interested in wingers for a stud faceoffs specialist like Bo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, JM_ said: But what are you basing this on? Whats the analysis you used to determine that Bo isn't "emotional" enough or thats what this team needs? not sure how you've come to that conclusion. Is Stamkos some kind of emotional leader? Maybe you haven't noticed the Rangers don't actually have a captain. Stamkos scores 50 goals and can change the game in 2 shifts Everyone is using 100 pt players as their comps. Bo is not a 100 pt player. Your captain needs to be able to change the momentum in a game, that's his role. TO LEAD If he can't score 100 pts like Hank, Yzerman, Sakic, Stamkos, he has to use his other tools. Which he does not. I have posted above, how many hits he had last year (and its consistent with years prior in terms of his ranking). Read that post, look at who had more hits (hint Kailer Yamomoto and Alex Debrincat - 2 smurfs, amongst others), and tell me that screams engagement. As for the Rangers, yep no one wears the C but they sure do have a team of players who compete and play with emotion right? You think Kredier isn't a physical leader? Trouba? K'andre Miller, they brought in Reaves, Motte, Copp, Gaudreau Do we have that level of compete and physicality? If we don't someone needs to lead right? How about a 6'1 220 lb captain who hits less than Yamamoto and Debrincat to start! Edited June 11, 2022 by NucknAsia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86Viking Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 29 minutes ago, NucknAsia said: If you're going to lead a team that is emotionless you have to find a way to bring emotion to them, sports need emotion. Bo learnt that emotionless from the Sedins. Bo does way too many fly bys as others have said, doesn't hit much at all and if a teammate gets hit when he is on the ice he usually does nothing...not the kind of captain I would want on the team, I would be pissed if I got hit and Bo did nothing as the leader of the team....AND it is not always dropping the gloves, it could be laying out the guy with a clean hit or going after one of their star players with a hit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Just now, NucknAsia said: Stamkos scores 50 goals and can change the game in 2 shifts Everyone is using 100 pt players as their comps. Bo is not a 100 pt player. Your captain needs to be able to change the momentum in a game, that's his role. TO LEAD If he can't score 100 pts like Hank, Yzerman, Sakic, Stamkos, he has to use his other tools. Which he does not. I have posted above, how many hits he had last year (and its consistent with years prior in terms of his ranking). Read that post, look at who had more hits (hint Kailer Yamomoto and Alex Debrincat - 2 smurfs, amongst others), and tell me that screams engagement. So if thats the measure, McDavid should be an awesome captain, but we all know he isn't. He hasn't led his team to squat. I think you're not valuing one of Bo's biggest assets enough - he's very consistent. Go look at his history, the guy is a marvel of consistent play. Hits can be a misleading stat. Sure he can up his hit totals but then he'd also be risking being out of position for other plays. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Remember the good ol’ days when the best player on the team wasn’t the captain? I miss those days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekker Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 2 minutes ago, JM_ said: But what are you basing this on? Whats the analysis you used to determine that Bo isn't "emotional" enough or thats what this team needs? not sure how you've come to that conclusion. Is Stamkos some kind of emotional leader? Maybe you haven't noticed the Rangers don't actually have a captain. I'm so tired of the Bo isn't emotional enough crap. He is a stud center. Surround the guy with players that are more gritty ffs. Bergeron, O'Reilly, Lindstrom, Toews, Crosby. Any of these cup winning captions that much emotional than Bo? Skill, sklll wins cups. Skill, sprinkled with toughness and character. Big mistake if Bo is traded. I'm actually getting a little worried about what JR has planned. I get it because the roadmap for the team, as is, does not lead to a cup. But I simply don't see the upgrade for Bo out there, and not ready to make JT the leader just because he gets grumpy more often. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NucknAsia Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 minute ago, JM_ said: So if thats the measure, McDavid should be an awesome captain, but we all know he isn't. He hasn't led his team to squat. I think you're not valuing one of Bo's biggest assets enough - he's very consistent. Go look at his history, the guy is a marvel of consistent play. Hits can be a misleading stat. Sure he can up his hit totals but then he'd also be risking being out of position for other plays. You went from Stamkos who's a 100 pt player to now the best offensive player in the planet as your arguments You're clearly missing the point about a captain's role to change the game, and how 100 pt players are able to do so with skill, skill that Bo does not have. I just explained this and you clearly did'n't take the time to read what I just wrote. SMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coryberg Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 5 minutes ago, Canuckster86 said: Bo learnt that emotionless from the Sedins. Bo does way too many fly bys as others have said, doesn't hit much at all and if a teammate gets hit when he is on the ice he usually does nothing...not the kind of captain I would want on the team, I would be pissed if I got hit and Bo did nothing as the leader of the team....AND it is not always dropping the gloves, it could be laying out the guy with a clean hit or going after one of their star players with a hit Was 3rd amongst canuck forwards in hits despite missing a dozen games. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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