(discussion) With stats/facts to back it up, explain where you think our d group ranks.

[Ballisticsports.]

1 hour ago, Dazzle said:

Puhleeze. Edler was from the NONIS period. Good god, he was the oldest piece from the roster before anyone, so what kind of revisionism are YOU talking about? He missed every single draft pick, minus the several ones I already listed. That in itself is a BIG failure, one which you've seemed to downplay. Instead, the so-called development issue which you've reasonably criticized is not really mentioned at all with Gillis. Gillis did start with a farm team, but he didn't really fill any of those teams with developing prospects (because he flubbed a lot of them).

 

You give far too much credit to the playoff successes that I already mentioned. His CORE was from other people. Sure he lucked out with Samuelsson, etc etc, among other players, but when it came down to Gillis having to make his own core (i.e. through the draft picks/prospects that HE picked), you can see how bad he really was.

 

You're giving credit to Gillis for the heavy work that other GMs did. When Gillis was fired, the team was honestly the worst state it had ever been in for a long, long time. No young prospects whatsoever, and a bunch of players that neither move the needle on the roster. I remember the Willie D period. Yes, those rosters were trash.

To be fair Dazzle. how easy is it to build a core when you draft last from each round as to building a core from the top of each round?

Apples to Orange

Just like players, how a GM manages, will depend on where they were hired in the team's cycle

I cannot recall one GM being given such a long leash to keep us at the bottom of the standings for so long

We cannot change the past, hopefully the owner can learn from it and we can look forward to a new management's direction of building a top team for us all to enjoy again

 

Hopefully we can also get back on topic of JM's post (I've just been observing the comments for now)

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, DSVII said:

The team that made game 7 of the finals, which included a lot of parts Gillis brought on. There's only two other teams in our franchise history that made that stage and the 2011 was arguably the most dominant one when compared to the peers of the time.

 

The core of Kesler, Burrows, Luongo, Bieksa and the Sedins were in place yes, but Mikhael Samuelsson, Christian Ehrhoff, Chris Higgins, Maxim LaPierre, Dan Hamhuis were definitely upgrades that augmented that core.

 

The Sundin signing was credited with having a big part to play in Hank/Dank and Kes' development. Demitra too can't be ignored. 

 

I think you're also downplaying how he was able to lock down that core before any of them hit free agency.

 

There's a lot of revisionism going on here about how that core was always destined to make the cup finals. It was not that clear cut. Until Gillis' first season, people were questioning whether the Sedins were the core players that would take the next step  and whether they were the guys.

.

 

 

 

Interesting fact: our 2019-20 bubble run was the THIRD most successful Canucks season ever (game 7, second round, not even counting the play-in round).  

 

I remember the rumblings around our early Sedin team and whether it's good enough.  It's the same type of sentiment now where we have people screaming for another rebuild.  This market has 10 times the amount of media people as other markets except for a handful, and there's always complaining no matter what the situation is with the team.  

 

Burkie, Gillis, Sedins, Bieksa, and even Friedman have openly pondered how much it hurts Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal to have every move second guessed and fake outrages created, however now I'm going on a tangent. 

[Fred65]

22 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Quinn built the team from pretty much nothing. Gillis got gifted a contender from qualified management and then destroyed the franchise with his gross incompetence.  He was easily the worst GM in the history of the franchise and unfit for any job involving player evaluation.

Lest we,more impotendly you forget. He brought in Tanev,  Markstrom, LaPierre, Erhoff, Kassian, Horvat, Hamhuis Higgins,to name but a few. The of course he was, voted by other GM's in the league as best GM, won two presidents trophoes and went to game 7 of SC. Now Benning to his credit ...... what did he do in 8 years, remind me. He got lots of top picks in the draft including Juoevi and Virtanen 

[ilduce39]

6 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Interesting fact: our 2019-20 bubble run was the THIRD most successful Canucks season ever (game 7, second round, not even counting the play-in round).  

 

I remember the rumblings around our early Sedin team and whether it's good enough.  It's the same type of sentiment now where we have people screaming for another rebuild.  This market has 10 times the amount of media people as other markets except for a handful, and there's always complaining no matter what the situation is with the team.  

 

Burkie, Gillis, Sedins, Bieksa, and even Friedman have openly pondered how much it hurts Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal to have every move second guessed and fake outrages created, however now I'm going on a tangent. 

I like it, and I havent double checked but it sounds about right.   Wouldn’t that be 4th, though?  (After 1982, 1994, 2011)

 

Crazy when you think about it.  That bubble run was fun, though. Nice to know while we may not be built for the playoffs, our key guys know how to step up. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by ilduce39

[Guest]

Just now, ilduce39 said:

I like it, and I have double checked but it sounds about right.   Wouldn’t that be 4th, though?  (After 1982, 1994, 2011)

 

Crazy when you think about it.  That bubble run was fun, though. Nice to know while we may not be built for the playoffs, our key guys know how to step up. 

Yes you're right, 4th!  

 

It was good to see that Quinn, Bo, and Petey could step up in the playoffs and not become non-factor perimeter players.  

 

Really looking forward to the playoff push this year. Just need some good health. 

[DSVII]

9 minutes ago, VancouverHabitant said:

Interesting fact: our 2019-20 bubble run was the THIRD most successful Canucks season ever (game 7, second round, not even counting the play-in round).  

 

I remember the rumblings around our early Sedin team and whether it's good enough.  It's the same type of sentiment now where we have people screaming for another rebuild.  This market has 10 times the amount of media people as other markets except for a handful, and there's always complaining no matter what the situation is with the team.  

 

Burkie, Gillis, Sedins, Bieksa, and even Friedman have openly pondered how much it hurts Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal to have every move second guessed and fake outrages created, however now I'm going on a tangent. 

Oh for sure. I think Vancovuer ranks only behind Toronto and Montreal for the media pressure. It was very disappointing to see them run with the narratives generated around the league for the 'most hated team' post 2011. 

 

Which makes me very happy to see JR push back against our overzealous reporters with all the Miller talk.

[hammertime]

On 7/21/2022 at 9:45 PM, wai_lai416 said:

Sry I still fail to see how u can compare gm drafting records when 1 is consistently drafting in the late 1st or no 1st to one consistently drafting in the top 10 years after years after years. A top 10 pick even spinning the wheels you’ll probably end up with someone that’ll be ok-decent. Benning drafting record outside the 1st round other than Demko in the 2nd round most if not all have been non existent even though you guys tried to pump the players thru the roof. Hoglander maybe will turn out decent but looking more and more like there isn’t even a spot in the lineup for him. U failed to mention the 2 big whiff at 5th and 6th overall and McCann. Don’t think any gm in the history of the canucks have failed that miserably at high 1st rounders.

 

if Gillis in his tenure had as much top 10 picks I’m sure blindfolded he prolly woulda hit on a few 

You're just being foolish. You don't have to like Benning I don't care one way or the other. But denying that we drafted better outside the top 10 under Benning than Gillis is just silly now come on. Your blind hatred jilted ex routine is embarrassing. If you could combine Gillis/Gillman with Benning I think we would have the best of both worlds. Benning was strong in areas Gillis was weak and vice versa. They both had strengths and flaws. If we had had the depth of a Brock, Demko, Hoglander, McCann, Forsling, Rathbone, Gaudette, Lockwood, Tryamkin coming up the pipe in our window. Things could have played out differently had all 3 MG/LG/JB been able to work together. Who cares where they play now at least they could play at the NHL level. 

 

Who did Gillis draft that is in the NHL. Who even made the NHL for a cup of coffee? Hutton, Gaunce, Connauton think thats it? None of whom are Canucks or were for long.

[hammertime]

9 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Benning definitely earned some of the blame for allowing a locker room cancer to coach the team.

Why do you say that. Torts got canned. That was an Aqua hire. 

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Why do you say that. Torts got canned. That was an Aqua hire. 

I think King means Green was coach cancerman. 

[hammertime]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I think King means Green was coach cancerman. 

@King HeffyEvidence? Or just opinion?

[J-23]

10 hours ago, DSVII said:

You're giving Gillis grief for not finding a replacement for Edler when he was in his prime (28). That is not a reasonable assessment and you know it. Otherwise you should blame Benning for not drafting OEL and Myer's replacements the moment they were signed and traded for (30). 

 

And Markstrom and Tanev were a Gillis pieces. You know, the shutodwn D and goalie that was propping up his teams that ranked consistently in the low 20s in high danger chances against.

 

Why are you spending so much time and energy defending a GM whose time here directly benefited every other team in our division but us I'll never know.

 

Just Bo Horvat is all i need to counter that ridiculous statement. And Benning hasn't been filling the farm team either....name a prospect in the last eight years outside of Demko who is going to graduate to the main team. Rathbone, that's it.

 

You know what's a bigger failure? Whiffing on two picks in the top 10, especially a 5th overall.

 

In the spirit of the thread, let's use stats to quantify this shall we?

 

Gillis made an error at 29th with Jensen that is 151.85 in trade value.

Benning made an error at 5th overall with Juolevi that is 484 or 3x that value in terms of what could have been in a trade. 

 

Or to put it simply, one mistake in the draft at the 5th overall spot is the equivalent of missing three picks at the 29th spot.

 

Let's not forget he messed up at 6th overall too

 

A Gillis draft miss mathematically does not have the same weight as a Benning draft miss because Benning was always drafting in the top part of the round during his time here

 

I'll repeat this to you.

 

A Gillis draft miss mathematically does not have the same weight as a Benning draft miss because Benning was always drafting in the top part of the round during his time here.

 

Benning has lost a way more value at the draft than Gillis from his whiffs.

 

https://soundofhockey.com/2022/06/06/examining-the-value-of-nhl-draft-picks/

 

 

This chart too correlates with performance (Game Score Value Added). Players you hit at the beginning of the draft do return more production.

 

Of course, let's look at the actual results with hindsight rather than projected values. To illustrate the lost value over time.

 

From the 2016 5th round pick alone

 

Juolevi returned Lammiko which returned nothing.

Tkachuk returned Jonathan Hubredeau, Mackenzie Weegar, a 2023 1st, and a prospect.

 

We missed out on a lot more that three times Juolevi's value unfortunately.

 

And you're down playing this substantially. Samuelsson scored 30 goals for us, which you would have lauded Benning for with Vrbata (good signing), was he a lucky whiff then? 

 

really now....

I honestly wished Benning was lucky enough to have a list of names to match this. 

 

You're also crediting Benning with stepping up to a podium with high draft picks, when I could literally hand you a hockey prospects magazine with rankings and guaranteed you'd be walking back with at least Nylander, Hughes and Tkachuk.

 

The other part is assembling the team with a supporting case, which Benning has failed at time and time again. He's had some hits for, but his misses are pretty egregious. (Beagle, Player Name, Roussel, Sbisa, Gudbranson, Poolman, Holtby, Dickinson)

 

That roster still made playoffs in 2015 and scored over 100 points. 

 

How does that speak to Benning's job performance when he hasn't assembled a team since that time 7 years ago that has outperformed Willie D and that 'trash' 2015 roster?

 

Lastly, let's look at the state of the teams shall we at those points in time

 

Benning inherited a prospect pool that was ranked 24th and a 'trash' team power ranked in the top 10 to start the season agreed on by the industry 

 

Rutherford inherited a prospect pool that was ranked 27th and a team power ranked 21st to start the season 

 

Again, Benning did not leave Rutherford with an easy situation either. In fact, his roster has just as many question marks as the 2015 Canucks, is less proven in the regular season and playoffs and has less cap flexibiilty.

Wow very well put together argument.

[Dazzle]

Just now, J-23 said:

Wow very well put together argument.

 Not really. There are plenty of holes in that argument. It just depends on what you want to believe, and I honestly think that's the problem. People WANT to hate Benning, but won't acknowledge the failures of Gillis. That's a bias. I have acknowledged Gillis' successes, but his failures are also worth mentioning in the same breath.

[J-23]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

 Not really. There are plenty of holes in that argument. It just depends on what you want to believe, and I honestly think that's the problem. People WANT to hate Benning, but won't acknowledge the failures of Gillis. That's a bias. I have acknowledged Gillis' successes, but his failures are also worth mentioning in the same breath.

I don’t hate Benning but go on.…

[King Heffy]

8 minutes ago, hammertime said:

@King HeffyEvidence? Or just opinion?

The fact that he destroyed all of our top players confidence, engaged in blatant nepotism to gift unearned roster spots to useless pylons, and threw the team under the bus when he didn't get them prepared.  He was not only incompetent, he was grossly unprofessional and his misconduct while here simply was not acceptable.

[hammertime]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

The fact that he destroyed all of our top players confidence, engaged in blatant nepotism to gift unearned roster spots to useless pylons, and threw the team under the bus when he didn't get them prepared.  He was not only incompetent, he was grossly unprofessional and his misconduct while here simply was not acceptable.

Destroyed kids confidence? They all had calder runs. Un professional? Threw team under bus? Useless Pylons who out played Gadjovich(Chaisson) and Big Mac (Lammiko). Or would you prefer to gift them roster spots instead? 

 

Green wasn't a great coach. But what you're saying is nonsense. Get a hold of yourself. To a man there wasn't a peep about Green from that room. Man lost his job it's not like he was maliciously out to ruin kids careers. At the end of the day his message was stale and he wasn't a very good coach end of story. He's not a super villan. 

[Dazzle]

19 minutes ago, J-23 said:

I don’t hate Benning but go on.…

I don't have the time to pick out every single part of his argument, so I'll address some of them. You better be reading @DSVII

His argument that Edler can't be used as damning evidence of Gillis is beyond silly. Edler is the oldest part of that core, which LOGICALLY should have been addressed earlier than any other roster player. The fact that Gillis COULDN'T draft/develop a single defenseman beyond Hutton demonstrates a failure that DSV doesn't want to admit. That in itself is a weakness of his argument, and not evidence that this is a "well put together argument".

 

He also talks about this part:

 

[quote]

And Markstrom and Tanev were a Gillis pieces. You know, the shutodwn D and goalie that was propping up his teams that ranked consistently in the low 20s in high danger chances against. [/quote]

 

Response

 

Yes, they were GIllis pieces, but Luongo/Edler were somebody else's pieces. So was Kesler, the Sedins, and so forth - none of which Gillis found replacements for, nor did he engineer any kind of trade where he could get some future picks back.

 

[quote]

 

Why are you spending so much time and energy defending a GM whose time here directly benefited every other team in our division but us I'll never know.

 

[/quote]

 

Response:

 

This is actually a false statement. How exactly did Benning "directly benefitted every other team"? It makes no sense at all. If Benning's roster sucks, it's just one team. How does it "directly benefit" every team? If Benning's trading sucks, how many trades did he actually make that was a net positive gain for Edmonton/Calgary, so forth. That's why his statement here is illogical.

 

[quote]

 

Just Bo Horvat is all i need to counter that ridiculous statement. And Benning hasn't been filling the farm team either....name a prospect in the last eight years outside of Demko who is going to graduate to the main team. Rathbone, that's it.

 

[/quote]

 

Response:

 

Bo Horvat, if I should remind him and others, was ONLY obtained by trading a KNOWN commodity in Schneider for an UNKNOWN 9th pick. Horvat had skating issues at the time, which he was able to address, but things would turn out VERY differently had Schneider turned into a superstar goalie, and Horvat turning into a bust.

 

[quote]

 

You know what's a bigger failure? Whiffing on two picks in the top 10, especially a 5th overall.

 

[/quote]

 

Response:

 

Virtanen was in a draft where many of the first round picks ended up being duds. Dal Colle was a particularly bad pick, as well as Fleury (the defenseman). Olli Juolevi was plagued with injuries and COVID. I'm not sure how one can predict that kind of outcome, considering Juolevi DID win at every level, from the Memorial Cup to the Gold Medal team for Finland at the WJC.

 

[quote]

 

A Gillis draft miss mathematically does not have the same weight as a Benning draft miss because Benning was always drafting in the top part of the round during his time here

 

[quote]

 

Response:

 

This is a foolish comparison. Gillis threw away three first round picks (Gaunce/Jensen/25th pick in the Grabner trade, ALONG with Grabner, who was also a first rounder, for Ballard, who Gillis ended up buying out.

 

This doesn't include the multiple second round picks that he threw away in trades, namely the Derek Roy trade.

 

He also traded away his second most successful defenseman (who never played for the Canucks) in Kevin Connauton. This leaves Gillis with: Horvat, Hutton, and Hodgson as draft successes. Yikes.

 

[quote]

 

Benning has lost a way more value at the draft than Gillis from his whiffs.

 

[quote]

 

Benning drafted Demko - starting goalie - using a 2nd round pick that Gillis kept flubbing. So the argument that Benning had the privilege of high picks is trash. He also has Rathbone, a promising defenseman that Gillis never had in his system. What about Hoglander? Another second round pick.

 

Other possible NHLers: Jett Woo (2nd round pick). We also have Silovs, again, a promising goalie that never existed under Gillis' regime.

 

Gillis is remembered for his playoff wins, and not much else. His legacy for poor draft picks and draft development SHOULD NOT be ignored.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Dazzle

[King Heffy]

14 minutes ago, hammertime said:

Destroyed kids confidence? They all had calder runs. Un professional? Threw team under bus? Useless Pylons who out played Gadjovich(Chaisson) and Big Mac (Lammiko). Or would you prefer to gift them roster spots instead? 

 

Green wasn't a great coach. But what you're saying is nonsense. Get a hold of yourself. To a man there wasn't a peep about Green from that room. Man lost his job it's not like he was maliciously out to ruin kids careers. At the end of the day his message was stale and he wasn't a very good coach end of story. He's not a super villan. 

Chiasson, Hunt, and Petan did nothing to suggest they had earned roster spots.  Green also didn't utilize Shaw effectively and allowed Baumgartner to sabotage the defence, and he clearly was unwilling on unable to set the lineup properly..  Bottom line is he may not have been intentionally hurting the team, but he did not conduct himself appropriately and no one in their right mind would have any respect for him.  You can't allow a coach who is that bad anywhere near your group.

[hammertime]

22 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Chiasson, Hunt, and Petan did nothing to suggest they had earned roster spots.  Green also didn't utilize Shaw effectively and allowed Baumgartner to sabotage the defence, and he clearly was unwilling on unable to set the lineup properly..  Bottom line is he may not have been intentionally hurting the team, but he did not conduct himself appropriately and no one in their right mind would have any respect for him.  You can't allow a coach who is that bad anywhere near your group.

They did also play 17 playoff games when they had no business being there. If he was as bad as you say they would have been swept in the first. 

[wai_lai416]

47 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

 Not really. There are plenty of holes in that argument. It just depends on what you want to believe, and I honestly think that's the problem. People WANT to hate Benning, but won't acknowledge the failures of Gillis. That's a bias. I have acknowledged Gillis' successes, but his failures are also worth mentioning in the same breath.

Nah Gillis drafting does suck but given his average draft position from each round I don’t expect much if anything and he didn’t surprise drafted mostly duds. At the same time no one gives him any credit for the team success saying it was all previous regime etc etc he did do a bunch of nice moves to compliment the team to get it to the finals. Well not everyone but most. Some even going as far as calling him the worse gm ever. As for benning for a team that finished almost last for many years and missing the playoffs for 8 years. The amount of players he drafted that is still playing for the team or even traded for asset that is still benefiting the team is embarrassing

[NewbieCanuckFan]

Pat Quinn had the toughest rebuild job than anybody else.  He had to compete in an era where there was no cap and while we had great owners, they didn't remotely have an endless supply of cash that our current owners (under both Gillis and Benning) have constantly been willing to give the green light to management to spend.

 

Pat Quinn's only fault was that he was too loyal.  Not that he gave it freely but once he trusted you, you can AWAYS depend on him.

 

To me, there is Pat Quinn....  .then everyone else 

Edited July 27, 2022 by NewbieCanuckFan