A whole year of the same results and attitude and yet the core remains intact. It's Insane. Where is the accountability?

[EdgarM]

4 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Does that mean we should wait for Brock to get his mojo back?   Or just pull the trigger and pick up some Ogre (Lucic) and accept that's our return?  Don't like Miller on this team without Horvat.   To me that's a two for.   Do them both.  

I see it differently. I see it as "who do we need to match up with Petey". We need a "Linden to Bure" or  a "Yzerman to Fedorov" or a "Messier to Gretzky".

Bo and Miller are neither of those and not the answer to our need. 

[ShawnAntoski]

3 hours ago, AnthonyG said:

I’ve actually spent a lot of time discussing those teams I “forgot to mention” on these forums plenty. I can go find the places Ive posted about it and tag you if you’d like.
 

You know what most cup winners have in common? 1st overalls. Multiple top 3 picks. The other thing all cup winners have in common is a 2-3 year development path for players. STL, TBL, WSH, PIT, CHI, BOS, COL all teams with either top 3 picks or they spent years developing players in the minors.

 

Vancouvers best years were 2009-2012 correct? Those were the times to watch and really enjoy hockey. You know why we were such a dominant team?

Dank (2OA) Hank (3OA) plus our development path. Guys who spent a few seasons developing in the minors:

Bieksa

Kesler

Burrows

Hansen

Edler

Rypien

Schneider

Raymond

 

8 guys who spent time in the minors, 2 guys in the top 3 and thats half a team we built by drafting and developing. When those players were ready, The Sedins took over for the WCE and those guys in the minors came up and it was a smooth transition. Who was 2-5 years developed and ready when the twins retired? Vancouver since pretty much the beginning has almost flawlessly transitioned from one era to the next, until the Sedins retired and it came to a dead hault.

 

I want to mention just before I head out to work and it kinda goes with that “foundational” player topic. You look at Edmonton for example, how many skilled players they had from 2010 onward, just how few “foundational” Brandon Sutter type players they had to surround their star players. Look at how many of those young star players were derailed. Gagner, Yakupov, Eberle, Paajarvi, RNH… none of these guys lived up to the expectations, when you look at their environment, it was a disaster. Guys like Kucherov, Gaudreau, Scheifele and Huberdeau spent a couple years developing and are all much much better players overall than RNH, nowhere near the 1OA Edmonton hoped for. I’ll get back to you later on all this

 

 

All the things you posted, I already know - and it doesn't REALLY relate to the Canucks CURRENT strategy, of ever retooling for futures.  Looking forward, to how you will clarify your point and connect it to the CURRENT situation the Canucks are in: capped out, with a poor prospect pool and a solid contender to the Purgatory Cup.  I might have an idea, where you will start but I will wait.

 

In our conversation or in this thread, I had laid out my MAIN POV's and I would hope you are clear with them, to avoid any repetitive repetition(s) and move our conversation along, at a better pace.  Cheers !

Edited December 12, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[IBatch]

6 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

I see it differently. I see it as "who do we need to match up with Petey". We need a "Linden to Bure" or  a "Yzerman to Fedorov" or a "Messier to Gretzky".

Bo and Miller are neither of those and not the answer to our need. 

But they aren't like those guys.   They are very good secondary core players.   And won't cost anything like Yzerman and Federov or Gretzky and Messier would today.   Or Bure or Linden even.  And will be 50% cheaper then the Sedins cost us at 33.   Get it?   This team can afford them AND EP... 

Edited December 12, 2022 by IBatch

[EdgarM]

7 minutes ago, IBatch said:

But they aren't like those guys.   They are very good secondary core players.   And won't cost anything like Yzerman and Federov or Gretzky and Messier would today.   Or Bure or Linden even.  And will be 50% cheaper then the Sedins cost us at 33.   Get it?   This team can afford them AND EP... 

Cost wise you are right, however, the defensive prowess of those two do not come anywhere they need to be to compliment Petey. Yzerman, Linden and Messier had a balance of defense and offense which made them very good leaders and compliments to the mostly offensive players like Bure, Gretzky and Fedorov.

I think our imbalance in the line up has a lot to do with those 2 IMHO.

[Alflives]

28 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Does that mean we should wait for Brock to get his mojo back?   Or just pull the trigger and pick up some Ogre (Lucic) and accept that's our return?  Don't like Miller on this team without Horvat.   To me that's a two for.   Do them both.  

If clearing Brock's cap means taking on Lucic for the remainder of this season, that's a good deal for us.  Then we have the money to extend Kuz Missile. 

[Gurn]

5 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Fedorov.

He won the Selke in 1994 and 1996.

[PhillipBlunt]

18 hours ago, sassbs said:

It’s simple.  Rogers arena sells out every single game.  That’s $$$ for aquaman. Why fix something that isn’t broken.   Now if the fans stopped attending, then you’ll see change.  
 

this is what happened with Pittsburg.  Fans literally all decided to stop attending.  Then trades came, they drafted Sid, and Mario came out of retirement.  

I think that may be where this is heading. Or maybe not. 

I can't fathom how anyone would be interested in attending games this year, considering how poorly the team has played. Maybe some folks like paying way too much for mediocre food and watching mediocre hockey. It seems like a method of slow torture. 

[IBatch]

11 minutes ago, Gurn said:

He won the Selke in 1994 and 1996.

Federov was awesome.  So we're the Redwings from the early 90's for 3 entire decades.   Also won Hart in 94.  

 

Only hockey video game i ever played was circa based on the 93 season.  Canucks are were also awesome that season.  Each player had a ranking out of 100, Federov was 22 or something in fighting lol.   Had a cheat i could score on McLean every time but it wasn't Federov.  Paul Yserbeart or some plug, scored on Mclean every time i shot from the goal line by the boards - not fair to my brother who always picked the Canucks lol.     Good times. 

 

Bure played the off wing, Federov and Mogilny ... greatest junior line ever assembled.   We were lucky to have two of those guys.    Federov was amazing. 

Edited December 12, 2022 by IBatch

[IBatch]

5 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

I think that may be where this is heading. Or maybe not. 

I can't fathom how anyone would be interested in attending games this year, considering how poorly the team has played. Maybe some folks like paying way too much for mediocre food and watching mediocre hockey. It seems like a method of slow torture. 

Hey i paid good money to see the Orca just get its origin story and watch Messier a dozen times or so do a really fast blue line to blue line circle.   Cost me a hotel room, a ferry ride or just a ferry ride and sleeping on someone's floor each time.    So i know all about slow torture.    Strange thing we won almost every game i went to lol.  

[chon derry]

5 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Federov was awesome.  So we're the Redwings from the early 90's for 3 entire decades.   Also won Hart in 94.  

 

Only hockey video game i ever played was circa based on the 93 season.  Canucks are were also awesome that season.  Each player had a ranking out of 100, Federov was 22 or something in fighting lol.    Had a cheat i could score on McLean every time but it wasn't Federov.  Paul Yserbeart or some plug, scored on Mclean every time i shot from the goal line by the boards - not fair to my brother who always picked the Canucks lol.     Good times. 

 

Bure played the off wing, Federov and Mogilny ... greatest junior line ever assembled.   We were lucky to have two of those guys.    Federov was amazing. 

There’s a back in my day meme here but I’ll just move along 

[Coconuts]

1 hour ago, J.I.A.H.N said:

So on Donnie and Dhali

 

Dhali just stated that the Canucks have made an offer to Horvat, and it was turned down. The reality is that because Horvat's contract is so big, that there will be a player coming back, as well as maybe picks and prospects.

 

This is the new NHL reality..............would people be ok with a 50% retention for the remainder of the year, so as to get a better return?

Should be a no brainer, if Horvat goes we should absolutely be sellers who are willing to retain.

[IBatch]

19 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

Cost wise you are right, however, the defensive prowess of those two do not come anywhere they need to be to compliment Petey. Yzerman, Linden and Messier had a balance of defense and offense which made them very good leaders and compliments to the mostly offensive players like Bure, Gretzky and Fedorov.

I think our imbalance in the line up has a lot to do with those 2 IMHO.

We simply can't compare those guys though can we? 

[jyu]

1 hour ago, EdgarM said:

I see it differently. I see it as "who do we need to match up with Petey". We need a "Linden to Bure" or  a "Yzerman to Fedorov" or a "Messier to Gretzky".

Bo and Miller are neither of those and not the answer to our need. 

Exactly. You need a second guy. We could go on and on with examples of cup winning teams needing two main guys like Malkin to Crosby, Toewes to Kane (they rarely played on the same line), Stamkos to Point, etc etc.

 

Miller definitely is not. Bo may be -- I think he has another gear for the playoffs.

 

Thus far this season, they have shown nothing to change my mind as they can barely hold their own weight against the top 1/3 of the league.

 

It's going to be Petey and someone else. I hope the management reaches the same decision and move on from both Horvat and Miller.

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, jyu said:

Exactly. You need a second guy. We could go on and on with examples of cup winning teams needing two main guys like Malkin to Crosby, Toewes to Kane (they rarely played on the same line), Stamkos to Point, etc etc.

 

Miller definitely is not. Bo may be -- I think he has another gear for the playoffs.

 

Thus far this season, they have shown nothing to change my mind as they can barely hold their own weight against the top 1/3 of the league.

 

It's going to be Petey and someone else. I hope the management reaches the same decision and move on from both Horvat and Miller.

 

Maybe management has already made that decision but our owner won't allow it to happen?  We took Miller off the market last TDL because the return was all futures.  Those futures would have taken us back a step (especially with the year Miller was having) but they sure would look good now.  Fingers, toes, and eyes crossed our owner will allow this type of futures trade with Bo and not insist on a "win now" trade, if one is made.  

[jyu]

1 hour ago, AnthonyG said:

Thats why I view this year as a win-win regardless of how it all plays out. Why we all need to just take a breath and let it all go this season. We either get hot and make playoffs, or we sh*t the bed and miss it by a mile. This is a very deep upcoming draft and if we land a top 5 pick to add to the likes of Pettersson, Hughes, Kuzmenko, Miller etc.. That bodes well for a very long time. If we get hot at the right time and hit playoffs running, a hot goalie and goal scoring support is all you need to go far. We clearly have goal scoring support in front of our tendies. With another top 5 pick, another top 6 becomes expendable, similar to COL with Duchene and ROR, hopefully from there we can make a hockey trade to get a partner for Hughes.
 

You left out the worst case: we don't sh!t the bed but don't get hot enough and barely miss.

 

That way, we keep Horvat at the TDL only to miss and our draft pick is 15th overall.

 

We won't get top 5 unless we sell Horvat and more. The team has shown to be good enough to beat the bottom 10 teams but not strong enough to beat the top 10-12 teams consistently.

 

[Qwags]

Canucks would have been better off if Benning literally did nothing. Eriksson, Beagle, Roussel expired, solid prospect picked 9th, no OEL, no poolman, no Dickenson.

Oh no, we might lose Chaput or Megna to the expansion draft f**kKK

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, jyu said:

You left out the worst case: we don't sh!t the bed but don't get hot enough and barely miss.

 

That way, we keep Horvat at the TDL only to miss and our draft pick is 15th overall.

 

We won't get top 5 unless we sell Horvat and more. The team has shown to be good enough to beat the bottom 10 teams but not strong enough to beat the top 10-12 teams consistently.

 

And your scenario is exactly what happened last season.  We picked 15 when we could have moved Miller for futures and dropped into the top 10 at the draft.  Sadly, history looks like it's going to repeat.  

[DownUndaCanuck]

Who even is this team's core now of say 7? Petey, Miller, Bo, Hughes, OEL, Demko and who...Boeser?

 

Ideally we'd keep Bo, Petey, Hughes and Demko and shift Boeser and OEL and Miller but that's almost impossible. 

[EdgarM]

42 minutes ago, IBatch said:

We simply can't compare those guys though can we? 

I guess I could have had different examples but the point I was trying to make was that neither Bo or Miller are our answer to the big picture. Both have different skill sets but not what we need to be top paid forwards. First of all, their defense leaves something to be desired as does the ability to lead their team to victory. Bo is probably closer to being  that player but his inconsistent play has us scratching our heads some nights. Take the last game for example, I don't remember seeing him all night. Its like he has no idea what he can do to help the team win other then what he is doing.

 

 

13 minutes ago, jyu said:

Exactly. You need a second guy. We could go on and on with examples of cup winning teams needing two main guys like Malkin to Crosby, Toewes to Kane (they rarely played on the same line), Stamkos to Point, etc etc.

 

Miller definitely is not. Bo may be -- I think he has another gear for the playoffs.

 

Thus far this season, they have shown nothing to change my mind as they can barely hold their own weight against the top 1/3 of the league.

 

It's going to be Petey and someone else. I hope the management reaches the same decision and move on from both Horvat and Miller.

 

Miller was good last year and Bo this year but why the inconsistency? Also, the big dilemma with contracts has me concerned as well. They fall into "the money is more important to me then a Cup" mentality which we have seen in the past. 

Can we just have a team full of Schenn's please? 

[EdgarM]

9 minutes ago, DownUndaCanuck said:

Who even is this team's core now of say 7? Petey, Miller, Bo, Hughes, OEL, Demko and who...Boeser?

 

Ideally we'd keep Bo, Petey, Hughes and Demko and shift Boeser and OEL and Miller but that's almost impossible. 

Ideally I think we keep Petey and Hughes and Demko a big ? Depending why he is sucking this year. If its a nagging injury ,fine, but if its something else, I would rather take our losses now then to find out in another game 7 of the SC finals TBH.