The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

[The Arrogant Worms]

Awesome 1st troll post.

[-AJ-]

Petey has taken his overall game to another level this year and is still quite young. He might become a Selke-level player while also scoring 90-100 points. Trading him is not the solution to our defensive woes.

[spur1]

To the OP I say… give your head a good shake. 

[Junkyard Dog]

Lock it up. 

 

Nothing to see here.

[Crabcakes]

The problem with Horvat is that he's a 2C who want's 1C money.  

 

He's riding a 21.9% shooting percent which is ahead of his last 3 years (14.3%) and career average (13.7%).  You can't pay based on a small sample size.

 

Miller, on the other hand has been remarkably consistent as a Canuck for s% (15.7%) and his career year last year was due to a very high shot total (206) which is partly due to his playing 80 games but if you extrapolate this year's totals he's heading for 31 goals and 76 points behind 186 shots (66 in 29 games).  

 

Sooner or later, Bo will regress to his mean.  What he really is, is a 60 point player which is very good for a 2C.

 

I would really like to keep Horvat but if he insists on getting paid north of $8M you can't structure your team like that.  Sure, Bo is a centre and as such is valuable but Miller is the top producing winger on the Canucks with 244 points in 231 games.  That's 1.06 ppg compared to 0.74 ppg which is why Horvat should have a lower salary than Miller.

[Frank Caprice]

You lost me at "Curtis Lazar is our first line right winger".

[jyu]

You are not wrong to suggest this but is there a realistic return for petey that would make it worth trading him?

 

 There’s not a lot of package involving an RD that I’d trade petey for. 
 

I’d do petey for makar. But avs wouldnt. 
 

I’d consider heiskanen+ for petey. But would stars?

 

ekblad? 
 

If petey does get to 90+ points while playing a twao way game, that puts him close to pavel datsyuk level. You don’t trade those players unless they want out. We are not at a point where we have to worry about petey pulling a tkachuk. 

 

Edit: schneider and dobson trades you propose are severely under selling petey and lopsided in favor of Rangers and Islanders. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by jyu

[Bure2Win]

Edited December 18, 2022 by Bure2Win

[MeanSeanBean]

1 hour ago, Jester13 said:

TLDR?

100%

[Ruthervin]

2 hours ago, Nuxfanabroad said:

Rubbish.

 

EP40 is all you want in an NHL player.

He is, but again, a few things:

 

1) Pettersson is the only player/asset on the Canucks that will land you an elite top pairing two way RD (ie a young Brent Seabrook type player…..which is far and away the Canucks’ biggest need both short term and long term.
 

2) Even without Pettersson, the Canucks would still be considered strong down the middle with Horvat and Miller.

 

3) The Canucks’ biggest organizational weakness is their structure.  It’s flawed. OEL and Bear are taking on the teams’ toughest match ups when ideally, they should be your 2nd pairing (OEL at this stage might even be a 3rd pairing calibre guy). Luke Schenn, ideally, should be a 3rd pairing guy but he’s playing with Hughes.  If this defensive structure isn’t fixed, then the Canucks are going to be fundamentally flawed for a very long time.  This team could replace Pettersson with Connor McDavid and we’d still be mediocre.

 

4) Getting an elite cost controlled two way RD is likely the most difficult asset to acquire/draft in the NHL. Proof?  Look at our history.  
 

If the Canucks can fix their structure and ultimately have something like

 

xxx-Horvat-xxx

xxx-Miller-xxx

xxx-Decent3rdlineC-xxx

xxx-xxx-xxx

 

Hughes-[PetterssonReturn]
xxx-Bear

OEL-xxx

 

Demko

xxx

 

Then the other pieces can easily be acquired, drafted, signed, etc.  As of right now however, a combination of our defense being too weak + many of our forwards not being “defensively inclined” = our team being fundamentally flawed and being forced to out score it’s problems….which is not a recipe for long term success.

 

[Nucker 67]

They won't trade Petey, unless he doesn't want to play in VAN anymore. I guess they'd have to gauge what his intentions are, and if he wants to move on, then get a massive haul in a return. I hope he's a Canucks lifer though, like the Sedins.

[Ruthervin]

21 minutes ago, jyu said:

You are not wrong to suggest this but is there a realistic return for petey that would make it worth trading him?

 

 There’s not a lot of package involving an RD that I’d trade petey for. 
 

I’d do petey for makar. But avs wouldnt. 
 

I’d consider heiskanen+ for petey. But would stars?

 

ekblad? 
 

If petey does get to 90+ points while playing a twao way game, that puts him close to pavel datsyuk level. You don’t trade those players unless they want out. We are not at a point where we have to worry about petey pulling a tkachuk. 

 

Edit: schneider and dobson trades you propose are severely under selling petey and lopsided in favor of Rangers and Islanders. 

Thank you.  
 

While guys like Makar, Heiskanen, and Seider are untouchable, I’m of the belief that guys like Noah Dobson and Braden Schneider could still be acquired. Ditto for a guy like Ryan Pulock.  I love Pettersson as much as the next guy, but he’s the only guy that could help us acquire what this team needs the most.  
 

Even without Pettersson, this team would still be considered to be solid up front.  Our defense right now, as it stand’s however, is a tire fire.

 

-We do not have a true top pairing defenseman right now.  Hughes is our closest thing, but he needs to play with a true elite dman that can help minimize Hughes’ inherent weaknesses while allowing Hughes to maximize his offensive gifts. 
 

-OEL was supposed to be out Edler replacement but he appears to be going into decline and might be a #4 or #5 calibre dman at this point……and he’s now basically immovable.  
 

Maybe you guys and I will disagree but if Pettersson and Schenn get us either

 

1) Noah Dobson/Ryan Pulock + Jean Gabriel Pageau

 

OR

 

2) Filip Chytyl + Braden Schneider + draft pick,

 

it’s a deal I take.

[Ruthervin]

2 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

They won't trade Petey, unless he doesn't want to play in VAN anymore. I guess they'd have to gauge what his intentions are, and if he wants to move on, then get a massive haul in a return. I hope he's a Canucks lifer though, like the Sedins.

I hope you’re right and for the record, I don’t want anyone to believe that I dislike Pettersson.  I love Petey.  However, I also recognize that our defense is a complete mess and that guys like Horvat and Miller aren’t going to land us that elite top pairing RD.  I mean, look what happened this past Summer with Miller.  Alvin and Rutherford clearly inquired about both Dobson and Schneider but were denied. 
 

Personally, I think moving Horvat for picks and prospects would be a mistake (although I do understand that Alvin-Rutherford recently came out and said that they’re looking to make a hockey deal).  That’s all well and good, but teams aren’t going to give us an elite top pairing RD for Horvat.  They just won’t.  Guys like Carlo, Severson, etc, are decent but band-aids since they aren’t true #1 dmen. …..and if you trade Horvat for picks and prospects, then you’ve basically signed guys like Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Miller for nothing while also having acquired Garland and OEL for nothing.   
 

With the moves we made this past Summer, rebuild and retooling is no longer an option.  Guys like Demko and Hughes are also on capfriendly deals and so rebuilding-retooling would waste their prime years.  
 

The Canucks need to push forward and stay with the current plan, but fix their flawed structure…..,and unfortunately, moving Pettersson for an elite dman and solid 3rd line C is the only way out of the quagmire.

[Pears]

13 minutes ago, Ruthervin said:

Thank you.  
 

While guys like Makar, Heiskanen, and Seider are untouchable, I’m of the belief that guys like Noah Dobson and Braden Schneider could still be acquired. Ditto for a guy like Ryan Pulock.  I love Pettersson as much as the next guy, but he’s the only guy that could help us acquire what this team needs the most.  
 

Even without Pettersson, this team would still be considered to be solid up front.  Our defense right now, as it stand’s however, is a tire fire.

 

-We do not have a true top pairing defenseman right now.  Hughes is our closest thing, but he needs to play with a true elite dman that can help minimize Hughes’ inherent weaknesses while allowing Hughes to maximize his offensive gifts. 
 

-OEL was supposed to be out Edler replacement but he appears to be going into decline and might be a #4 or #5 calibre dman at this point……and he’s now basically immovable.  
 

Maybe you guys and I will disagree but if Pettersson and Schenn get us either

 

1) Noah Dobson/Ryan Pulock + Jean Gabriel Pageau

 

OR

 

2) Filip Chytyl + Braden Schneider + draft pick,

 

it’s a deal I take.

Please refrain from making a proposal ever again. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Pears

[eeeeergh]

2 hours ago, Ruthervin said:

The Canucks would be better off moving Elias Pettersson than Bo Horvat

 

The “narrative” amongst many media members and fans is that the Canucks should build around Pettersson, Demko, and Hughes while attempting to trade pretty much anyone else (ie Horvat, Kuzmenko, Garland, and Miller/OEL/Boeser if they are at all moveable).   The problem with that strategy however is as follows:

 

1) If the Canucks choose to do a rebuild, you will waste the prime years of Hughes and Demko where they are on good cap hits.  By the time the Canucks were to emerge out of a retool, guys like Hughes and Demko would be at or near contract expiration.   
 

2) If the Canucks go through another rebuild, there’s a risk that Pettersson will not want to stay here, and will pull a Matt Tkachuk.  Yes, JP Barry went on the air yesterday and mentioned that Petey loves it here, and sees the Matt Barzal contract as a comparable, but there are no guarantees.  Petey has also stated in the past that he wants to win a cup and that if he doesn’t feel the organization is progressing, he’d consider all options (didn’t say this explicitly but rather implied it).

 

3) Guys like Garland, OEL, Mikheyev, Kuzmenko, and Miller were specifically brought in here and/or signed here because they were lead to believe that the Canucks would be pushing towards being competitive and pushing towards being a playoff team.  IF Rutherford-Alvin went off in a different direction at this point, it would send a TERRIBLE message to these players, as well as future free agents. Like it or not, the Canucks made their decision about this organization with the Miller signing.  With Miller and OEL here for the long term and basically being almost impossible to move, the Canucks have to push forward with this core:

 

[b]Now, you may be asking, “well what the hell does this have to do with wanting to keep Horvat over Pettersson?” [/b]

 

The answer is as follows:   The Canucks biggest organizational weakness right now is their team structure. Although they are very deep up front, many of these forwards aren’t very good on the back check….which is problematic since our defense is very anemic…..which ultimately results in the Canucks giving uo and inordinately high number of high danger chances.  The ONLY way to fix this deep structural flaw is to acquire an elite top pairing right handed defenseman that can not only help elevate Hughes to the top pairing but can also serve as that “shut down” all situations horse that can minimize Hughes’ weaknesses while maximizing Hughes strengths.  A younger version of Chris Tanev……the Brent Seabrook to Quinn Hughes’ Duncan Keith if you will.  The Canucks need someone like Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider (I won’t mention Moritz Seider because he’s untouchable now), and the only guy that the Canucks have that can acquire such a piece is Elias Pettersson.  
 

While a guy like Horvat will fetch you a 1st rounder and a decent prospect, he’s not going to fetch you the next Brent Seabrook which is EXACTLY what this team needs both short term and long term.  With the Canucks being structurally flawed, it wouldn’t matter if we had Connor McDavid in this team (instead of Horvat).  Hell, it wouldn’t even matter if the Canucks had a very deep prospect pool.  The Canucks, as they are right now, would be doomed to fail because of their tire fire defense.  The only way to fix that is to trade Pettersson for an elite RD.  By doing that, it would create a rippling effect.  
 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
OEL-Bear

Schenn-Myers

 

With [PetterssonTrade], you’d elevate Hughes to the top pairing and have a guy that would help maximize Hughes’ strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  Similar to what Chris Tanev did in 2019-2020.  OEL-Bear would then avoid taking on the toughest match ups while Schenn could help carry Myers on the 3rd pairing.  Eventually, once Pearson and Myers come off the books, you could have the following structure:

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

You can sign a good 2nd pairing dman to play with Bear on the 2nd pairing while OEL can play on the 3rd pairing with someone cheap.

 

Defensive structure problem solved.

 

Now, up front?  At center, I would roll with the following:   
 

#####-Horvat#####
#####-Miller-#####
#####-New 3rd line C####
 

Yes, Horvat and Miller as your 1-2 punch down the middle wouldn’t be elite, but it would still be pretty solid….and if the Canucks were to somehow acquire a decent 3rd line center (which is WAY easier than acquiring an elite top pairing RD), then the Canucks would be a very balanced team…..a team that could choose to roll four lines instead of being too heavy.   
 

So, this is what I ultimately propose:

 

1) Trade Pettersson for an elite top pairing RD and a decent 3rd line center. Noah Dobson or Braden Schneider.  So maybe, Pettersson and Schenn for Braden Schneider and Filip Chytl or Pettersson and Schenn for Noah Dobson and Jean Gabriel Pageau.

 

2) Sign Horvat 

 

3) Sign Kuzmenko

 

4) Trade Boeser for a 3rd line center if you don’t trade for a 3rd line C in my 1st move.  So maybe Boeser to Montreal for Monahan if we don’t get Chytyl or Pageau.

 

5) Trade Connor Garland for a draft pick.  This will give us cap space

 

6) If we don’t trade Luke Schenn in my first idea, then move Schenn for a draft pick at the deadline. 
 

7) In the off-season, consider using a sweetener to move Myers and use that money on a good defenseman that can play with Bear on the 2nd pairing.

 

New future lines:

 

Kuzmenko-Horvat-Lazar

Mikheyev-Miller-Hoglander

Pearson-[BoeserTrade]-Podkolzin

#####-Aman-Joshua

 

Hughes-[PetterssonTrade]
#####-Bear

OEL-####
 

Demko

Martin

 

 

 

Petey for Schneider?

 

What in the Stillman...

[Gnarcore]

[goog16]

this trade proposal be like...

[CanucksCountry]

Let's move our franchise center so we can sign the worst captain in the league on a hot streak. That sure is an interesting philosophy on how to win a cup lol 

[Ruthervin]

27 minutes ago, eeeeergh said:

Petey for Schneider?

 

What in the Stillman...

Schneider + Chytyl + draft pick(s) was my idea for NYR.  Petey for Schneider one for one is NOT something I’d do

[jyu]

44 minutes ago, Ruthervin said:

Thank you.  
 

While guys like Makar, Heiskanen, and Seider are untouchable, I’m of the belief that guys like Noah Dobson and Braden Schneider could still be acquired. Ditto for a guy like Ryan Pulock.  I love Pettersson as much as the next guy, but he’s the only guy that could help us acquire what this team needs the most.  
 

Even without Pettersson, this team would still be considered to be solid up front.  Our defense right now, as it stand’s however, is a tire fire.

 

-We do not have a true top pairing defenseman right now.  Hughes is our closest thing, but he needs to play with a true elite dman that can help minimize Hughes’ inherent weaknesses while allowing Hughes to maximize his offensive gifts. 
 

-OEL was supposed to be out Edler replacement but he appears to be going into decline and might be a #4 or #5 calibre dman at this point……and he’s now basically immovable.  
 

Maybe you guys and I will disagree but if Pettersson and Schenn get us either

 

1) Noah Dobson/Ryan Pulock + Jean Gabriel Pageau

 

OR

 

2) Filip Chytyl + Braden Schneider + draft pick,

 

it’s a deal I take.

What is your justification that this team is solid up front even without Pettersson? The last time I checked natural stat trick, only 3 players had GF/60 well above GA/60, Pettersson, Mik, and Kuz. Who drives that line?

 

Take Pettersson out and we are weak up front because Miller and Horvat would have to be spread out and Horvat would end up taking all the match ups. And we all know from 8 seasons of watching Horvat that while is not a defensive liability, he is unable to push the play in the right direction against the elite players on a consistent basis.

 

The reason why Bo and Miller can focus on offence is because of Pettersson. 

 

Besides, Schneider is not even playing big minutes right now. So big fat no to that deal.

 

I agree that Dobson is what we need. And I do think he could develop into the player of Pettersson's caliber so maybe I'd consider that deal.

 

But we are filling a hole by creating another hole by trading #1C for a #1RD. I don't think it moves us forward.

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by jyu