[Discussion] The Forest From the Trees

[DrJockitch]

Find it odd the list to build around doesn’t have EP. 
Could have just said we need to rebuild which most already understood. 
Terribly managed team for the last decade and still doesn’t seem to see where they are. 

[RolexSub]

Nothing is going to change unless we have new owners. I really believe that. 

[IBatch]

This team was doomed to a very long time in NHL purgatory back during MG's days starting with Luongo/Schneider, clausing up everyone including good support players, and especially re-signing the Sedins and not rebuilding around Kesler instead.   That was the window, we whiffed.   Said it at the time and well it's right on course ... this team when the rebuild finally started (2017), wasted half a decade.   It was the only "window" to start a rebuild.   LE's failed contract, was probably a blessing in disguise ... otherwise the rebuild might have pushed back another year or two. 

 

As for that.   The biggest invalidation as a fan, is any idea that we can't survive a proper rebuild in this market.   People cry about not having a pool, well for a few years, we could also list a group of players like the OP did - now they are well established NHL vets.   Asset management another thing (Forsling/McAan)...  

 

Yes our record sucks.   But this was always going to be like starting from scratch under the old rules of expansion.   Truly think some of the owner hate needs to be shared with Bettman's bloated league.   AHLers on almost every team.   1/32 cups every 32 years on average (and six teams have a distinct tax advantage, another dozen a modest one, and ours is bad, really really bad - math wise 1/43 years with this not so level play field) .   And it was always going to be parts of this core  and some 12-14 year old kids we don't even know about yet, best case, that would put us back into contention.   Doesn't matter who's coaching or who's our GM.  JB ... yes he needed to go.   And so do the owners if they can't see the light.    

 

LA did it right, that's Blake just a former player ... same with Sakic same with Yzerman (fixing Hollands mistakes now after 20 years of being the cream of the crop even he couldn't do it 3 times in a row).    Nobody could have created a back to back contender.     Look how long it took WNP and CLB to make the playoffs or become a contender ... we started with Horvat lol.   Yikes.   Not Rick Nash or Danny Healtey or Ilya Kovalchuk.   Might as well appreciate the little things like the Sedins having one last great game. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by IBatch

[Warhippy]

13 hours ago, Coconuts said:

I'm very jealous of what Anaheim's been doing, LA too. Hell, even Montreal post-cup run has me envious. These teams saw the writing on the wall and embraced the inevitable transitional process while we bumbled around under Benning and co, and perhaps JR and Alvin now too. The goal wasn't to be bad under Benning, his goal was always the playoffs, we were simply a bad team despite his best efforts. 

 

I wish management would purchase spines and embrace a rebuild process. Some might argue we were rebuilding, my counterargument is that we were simply mediocre at best for most of Benning's tenure despite efforts to make us a competitive team. In all my years following this club we've not once done a legitimate rebuild. Closest we got to that process was selling off Burrows, Hansen, and Bieksa.  

La did the "proper retool" in which a few bad years a couple mediocre years and smart trades kept their cap limits down and their assets high.  Drafted smart for position while maintaining a level of competitiveness.  Anaheim saw what was happening and committed to this in 2018 so in 4 years that is their stockpile of youth that are deemed cant miss or blue chip.

 

Our selling off of Burrows Bieksa and Hansen was done 2 years too late for their cap hits and production thus tanking their value

[Warhippy]

13 hours ago, Fred65 said:

I don't get it, honestly. The Gillis era ( the most succesful era in the last 50 years I've been following Vcr ) despite winning, trophies went after the Cup1 and frankly got the team very close despite losing Hamhuis, Rome, Erhoff sperated shoulder and Edler broken hand plus Kessler shoulder. If the club has won game 7 no one would be making such alogations. In interviews years after he left admitted he was slow on the draw about renewing the scouting staff ( though he did hire Brackett ) I personally had more fun attending the games in that era because there was always an above average chnace of seeing a win night in night out. He along with Torts realized that the team needed a strip down and that was his death knell. Now because of chasing the impossible we're stuck in pergatory, Cap Hell. Thks 

That's just it.  he was never given the chance.  He was very outspoken about what needed to happen.  Lost his job.

 

Torts was lambasted for saying the truth about this team and core and turned out to be right.

 

Gillis never got the chance to actually build anything so we will never know what he may have done.

[Warhippy]

13 hours ago, You Mad Bro? said:

Look what Colorado did a few years ago. Selling high on older players in their prime and building around their young star. Seems to have kind of worked for them. Frustrating right now, trading Miller at last years tdl or the offseason was an absolute home run slam dunk of a move that never happened. 

So, Colorado is an interesting cse.  They had the Duchene draft which net them ROR, Duchene and Barrie.  Sucked.  Got Landeskogg.  Sucked.  Got MAckinnin.  Lucked in to Makar and Byram.  But really their drafting has been awful while their pro scouting has been top notch.  Since the Duchene trades they've not really done much of anything in regards to successful drafting but wow those trades and signings made them unstoppable last year when it all came to a head

[Warhippy]

12 hours ago, Phil_314 said:

In terms of a roster teardown, I think pretty much the only pieces to build around are

Both Petey's, Hughes, Mikheyev, both goalies (too early to sell on Demko despite his tough season), the 4th line, Podkolzin/ Hoglander and whoever we should aim to get with trading Horvat/ Miller.  (OEL makes the list just because of how exorbitant the cost would be to move him, and I'd include Bear and Schenn as RD stopgaps).  

Boeser/ Miller/ Garland/ Myers/ Pearson/ Stillman/ Dermott/ Horvat/ Kuzmenko should all be considered for trade, the first 5 for new starts in different cities and also to help add depth (they should be good players still, just they haven't been efficient in their time here), whereas Still-here-man and Dermott can be good depth, which could translate to a pick.  Horvat ought to bring back either a young C, young RHD or 1st, same hopefully for Kuzmenko if they sell him properly at the deadline.

IF our management was better at drafting I'd have more confidence in the team's future, but as it is I'd even include Rathbone and Lekkerimaki in trades (the Swede hasn't looked good in WJC and doesn't bring much more than a shot IMO).

 

12 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

Find it odd the list to build around doesn’t have EP. 
Could have just said we need to rebuild which most already understood. 
Terribly managed team for the last decade and still doesn’t seem to see where they are. 

I forgot Petey but didn't feel like editing to include him because I am unsure if he will be here through a rebuild.

 

The core to build around IMO is in fact Petey, Demko, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lekkerimaki.  Strictly speaking, that is not much at all to speak of

[DrJockitch]

10 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

 

I forgot Petey but didn't feel like editing to include him because I am unsure if he will be here through a rebuild.

 

The core to build around IMO is in fact Petey, Demko, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lekkerimaki.  Strictly speaking, that is not much at all to speak of

Would agree with that list though Lekkerimaki seems has had a very disappointing season and looks at best like secondary complimentary scorer. 

[awalk]

21 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So, Colorado is an interesting cse.  They had the Duchene draft which net them ROR, Duchene and Barrie.  Sucked.  Got Landeskogg.  Sucked.  Got MAckinnin.  Lucked in to Makar and Byram.  But really their drafting has been awful while their pro scouting has been top notch.  Since the Duchene trades they've not really done much of anything in regards to successful drafting but wow those trades and signings made them unstoppable last year when it all came to a head

Montreal looking like they will have some similar luck into the top 10 or maybe even top  5 with the FLA pick they got for... *checks notes*... holy shit Ben Chiarot.

Seems like a combination of luck and knowing when to sell high on players (which is probably directly related to pro scouting), is pretty key. 

[PhillipBlunt]

Gillis should have been given carte blanche to tear the team down after their gutless showing against the Sharks in 2012. And by tear the team down, I mean trade anyone who would have brought in picks or prospects, including the Sedins. Clearly someone (ownership) has never had the stomach for a rebuild and instead has chosen over a decade of complete mediocrity, which will hopefully result in a massive drop in attendance of home games and season ticket purchases. The team is not worth the cost of watching them live at all. Anyone shelling out their hard-earned money to watch this woefully inconsistent team could find numerous alternatives to that type of torture. 

[DSVII]

17 hours ago, King Heffy said:

Given how incompetent he was with drafting and the trades he made, he proved that he lacked the intelligence to be trusted with that job.  Ownership should have fired that idiot far before they did.  While Benning didn't do great, you can't allow someone that stupid to continue to destroy the franchise.  A rebuild should have been attempted under a qualified GM at that time though.

Benning arguably has been one of the most destructive GMs for the value and culture of the team in the salary cap era. Paying premium for boat anchor contracts, letting qualified staff and players go for nothing and crippling the franchise for years to come. I argue his pro scouting was on the same level as Gillis amateur scouting. He was a fraud that benefited from the peter principle and teams he didn't build (jeff Gorton and boston)

 

Gillis sucked at drafting but for roster construction, creating that winning culture, and the fact that other front offices have copied the 2011 canucks innovations (sleep doctors, analytics, on-ice deployment/zone strats, special diets for players, team psycologists) really just tells you enough. 

 

His only rebuilding moves in that 2013 offseason when he decided to revolt against FA (Horvat, Markstrom) and the leftover young roster players he had (Tanev) have massively propped up the shortcomings of the current team. Only when most of those pieces left did the wheels fall off. 

 

Gillis was an asshole I'll grant you that and even he acknowledged he should have fixed the scouting but never got the chance to because he was canned. But you can't really accuse him of lacking intelligence. He was an innovator. 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by DSVII

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So, Colorado is an interesting cse.  They had the Duchene draft which net them ROR, Duchene and Barrie.  Sucked.  Got Landeskogg.  Sucked.  Got MAckinnin.  Lucked in to Makar and Byram.  But really their drafting has been awful while their pro scouting has been top notch.  Since the Duchene trades they've not really done much of anything in regards to successful drafting but wow those trades and signings made them unstoppable last year when it all came to a head

Rantanen, Kadri, Toews, Girard, Manson ... Sakic at least understood he needed to tear it down.  And made the correct moves.   But i suppose he knows what it takes to win a cup, same as Stevie Y.   

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, Warhippy said:

So, Colorado is an interesting cse.  They had the Duchene draft which net them ROR, Duchene and Barrie.  Sucked.  Got Landeskogg.  Sucked.  Got MAckinnin.  Lucked in to Makar and Byram.  But really their drafting has been awful while their pro scouting has been top notch.  Since the Duchene trades they've not really done much of anything in regards to successful drafting but wow those trades and signings made them unstoppable last year when it all came to a head

Ovi - cups are cups.   Probably the best quote ever.    And well Sakic is a boss.   He did have horseshoes up his arse but he also put the franchise into a position to get there too.   Something we haven't done since Mike Keanan and Messier - both vilified. 

[Warhippy]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Rantanen, Kadri, Toews, Girard, Manson ... Sakic at least understood he needed to tear it down.  And made the correct moves.   But i suppose he knows what it takes to win a cup, same as Stevie Y.   

 

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Ovi - cups are cups.   Probably the best quote ever.    And well Sakic is a boss.   He did have horseshoes up his arse but he also put the franchise into a position to get there too.   Something we haven't done since Mike Keanan and Messier - both vilified. 

Tough decisions need to be made period.

 

It's more than luck, it's sacrifice too

[Phil_314]

9 hours ago, Warhippy said:

 

I forgot Petey but didn't feel like editing to include him because I am unsure if he will be here through a rebuild.

 

The core to build around IMO is in fact Petey, Demko, Hughes, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Lekkerimaki.  Strictly speaking, that is not much at all to speak of

So you're of the camp that we should trade Mikheyev?  He's been one of the few guys looking and playing like they want to be here.

[Warhippy]

35 minutes ago, Phil_314 said:

So you're of the camp that we should trade Mikheyev?  He's been one of the few guys looking and playing like they want to be here.

I wouldn't trade him, but I'd certainly consider it for the right price.  

[Warhippy]

So after last night.  Henrique is reportedly available as well as Klingberg.  Silfverberg is up and the ask is high but retention is possible 

 

The ducks WILL be picking 3-5 times in the first 3 rounds again this year and next year 

 

Since 2019 they've done that no less than 4 times with 6 first round picks, 5 second round picks and 3m3 third round picks.

 

THAT is without mentioning that they have three 2nd round picks and 2 third round picks this year and two seconds next year alone without making a single move at this point.

 

Damn...

[Coconuts]

6 minutes ago, Warhippy said:

So after last night.  Henrique is reportedly available as well as Klingberg.  Silfverberg is up and the ask is high but retention is possible 

 

The ducks WILL be picking 3-5 times in the first 3 rounds again this year and next year 

 

Since 2019 they've done that no less than 4 times with 6 first round picks, 5 second round picks and 3m3 third round picks.

 

THAT is without mentioning that they have three 2nd round picks and 2 third round picks this year and two seconds next year alone without making a single move at this point.

 

Damn...

Meanwhile Canucks management doesn't appear to be able to see the forest OR the trees 

[ilduce39]

They missed the boat last year but this season seems ripe to take that lateral / back step and land a top 10 pick + at least 1 or 2 extra 1st round picks in a deep draft.  Be a franchise defining deadline/offseason.
 

I’m not as confident as I should be that they’ll do this, though.  But I hope they can make some lemonade out of the considerable lemons of this season. 

[Warhippy]

3 minutes ago, ilduce39 said:

They missed the boat last year but this season seems ripe to take that lateral / back step and land a top 10 pick + at least 1 or 2 extra 1st round picks in a deep draft.  Be a franchise defining deadline/offseason.
 

I’m not as confident as I should be that they’ll do this, though.  But I hope they can make some lemonade out of the considerable lemons of this season. 

If they do what I expect this year I'll be done with any hope of this team until it's sold.

 

I'm watching kitchen nightmares reruns with my wife and the delusional belief management and ownership have in this team as well as the deluded mentality that everything is ok with just a few tweaks or some structure looks like and sounds like the mold I just watched Gordon Ramsay scrape off of the side of a fridge while the owner said it's normal to have that in a busy kitchen