Is the Current Canuck Defence Playoff Team Quality? (My Analysis)

[mikeyman109]

On 5/31/2023 at 4:21 PM, billabong said:

***BPA not best defenseman available***

 

I could make a strong argument we need a young C more than anything cause after pettersson and Miller there’s nothing for the future except Raty who still needs another year in the A

Yeah been picking what everyone says is BPA for over 50 years and hows that developed into a championship. if you need a D you take a D.

[billabong]

2 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

Yeah been picking what everyone says is BPA for over 50 years and hows that developed into a championship. if you need a D you take a D.

Joulevi has entered the chat 

[mikeyman109]

7 minutes ago, billabong said:

Joulevi has entered the chat 

He was considered the BPA by the management and scouting group and also It sounds like Tkachuck told them he didnt want to play in Vancouver

[billabong]

26 minutes ago, mikeyman109 said:

He was considered the BPA by the management and scouting group and also It sounds like Tkachuck told them he didnt want to play in Vancouver

Benning is on record for admitting he reached to take juolevi and regretted it 

[wai_lai416]

8 hours ago, mikeyman109 said:

He was considered the BPA by the management and scouting group and also It sounds like Tkachuck told them he didnt want to play in Vancouver

Juolevi is BPA with Tkachuk on the board?? even if Tkachuk doesn't want to play in vancouver.. you either draft him and trade his rights to a team that wants him or trade down to a team that wants him for a kings ransom.. the drop off from tkachuk to Juolevi is so big it's not even close at the time of the draft.

[mikeyman109]

On 6/3/2023 at 5:14 PM, wai_lai416 said:

Juolevi is BPA with Tkachuk on the board?? even if Tkachuk doesn't want to play in vancouver.. you either draft him and trade his rights to a team that wants him or trade down to a team that wants him for a kings ransom.. the drop off from tkachuk to Juolevi is so big it's not even close at the time of the draft.

Hindsight is always easy to throw rocks. Tkachuck didnt want to play in Vancouver and His father as much as said so

[wai_lai416]

1 hour ago, mikeyman109 said:

Hindsight is always easy to throw rocks. Tkachuck didnt want to play in Vancouver and His father as much as said so

it's not even hindsight Tkachuck to any other player still available was a massive drop off.. it's pretty much concensus at the time.. if MT doesn't want to play in vancouver? trade the pick or trade the rights? i'm sure there's there's 30 other teams willing to move up to take MT if available and made a reach with juolevi and chances are he'll still be available at 10+ if they are so dead set on him. it's bad asset management in every way.. MT doesn't want to play in Vancouver and u think he loved to play in calgary?

[Dr. Crossbar]

This thread is a first cousin of the Is Hronek Enough thread ... closely related.

[Baggins]

On 6/3/2023 at 5:14 PM, wai_lai416 said:

Juolevi is BPA with Tkachuk on the board?? even if Tkachuk doesn't want to play in vancouver.. you either draft him and trade his rights to a team that wants him or trade down to a team that wants him for a kings ransom.. the drop off from tkachuk to Juolevi is so big it's not even close at the time of the draft.

Remember when most here wanted Glass, with Vilardi the second option, when they took Pettersson? There's a reason every team has their own scouting department. Doesn't mean they'll always be right any more than the outside scouting services getting it right.

[wai_lai416]

2 hours ago, Baggins said:

Remember when most here wanted Glass, with Vilardi the second option, when they took Pettersson? There's a reason every team has their own scouting department. Doesn't mean they'll always be right any more than the outside scouting services getting it right.

sure but at that time glass vilardi and pettersson was technically same tier at that time and EP continued to grow while the other 2 didnt. MT was like A tier vs everything else left on the board which was a B tier. 

[Baggins]

6 hours ago, wai_lai416 said:

sure but at that time glass vilardi and pettersson was technically same tier at that time and EP continued to grow while the other 2 didnt. MT was like A tier vs everything else left on the board which was a B tier. 

Nope. There was even dead silence when Pettersson's name was called at the arena draft party. I said "who" when he was selected because I hadn't even heard his name mentioned. Heard Glass and Vilardi a bunch though. 

[Alflives]

9 hours ago, Baggins said:

Remember when most here wanted Glass, with Vilardi the second option, when they took Pettersson? There's a reason every team has their own scouting department. Doesn't mean they'll always be right any more than the outside scouting services getting it right.

When Benning was here he controlled the scouts’ list. He picked “his” guy except the one time Trevor stepped in and went with the scouts on Petey. Benning wanted Glass. 
Then Trevor got pushed out. Benning made all our top picks after that too. There was a Canuck video from the Hughes’ draft where Wisebrod says to Benning, after Detroit passed on Hughes, “you got your guy”. Not we got our guy. But specifically “you got your guy”. 
Benning would laser in on “his” guy and then pick him. He did it with Jake and with Juiolevi. Sometimes Benning’s guy was likely also the scouts’ choice too. But the guy we selected was who Benning wanted. Except Petey. That was Linden stepping up to allow the scouts to have their voices heard. 

[Brock BOeser]

2 hours ago, Alflives said:

When Benning was here he controlled the scouts’ list. He picked “his” guy except the one time Trevor stepped in and went with the scouts on Petey. Benning wanted Glass. 
Then Trevor got pushed out. Benning made all our top picks after that too. There was a Canuck video from the Hughes’ draft where Wisebrod says to Benning, after Detroit passed on Hughes, “you got your guy”. Not we got our guy. But specifically “you got your guy”. 
Benning would laser in on “his” guy and then pick him. He did it with Jake and with Juiolevi. Sometimes Benning’s guy was likely also the scouts’ choice too. But the guy we selected was who Benning wanted. Except Petey. That was Linden stepping up to allow the scouts to have their voices heard. 

Bennington clearly wants Pettersson in the draft video.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

12 hours ago, Baggins said:

Remember when most here wanted Glass, with Vilardi the second option, when they took Pettersson? There's a reason every team has their own scouting department. Doesn't mean they'll always be right any more than the outside scouting services getting it right.

Hopefully Benning (or Alvin) fired those pro scouts that recommended acquiring LE or OEL into the sun.

[IBatch]

On 6/3/2023 at 11:36 AM, mikeyman109 said:

He was considered the BPA by the management and scouting group and also It sounds like Tkachuck told them he didnt want to play in Vancouver

He for sure wasn't considered BPA by the scouts paid to analyze the group of picks by both ISS and the aggregate average of 10 NHL scouts THN uses in their rankings.    OJ had a high floor, considered a "safe"

pick, but not at all top five material, top ten barely at best.    And yes a couple TV personalities had him modestly close to where he was ranked.    But the fact is, even on a loaded, a loaded London team, his stats were meh compared to his peers.    He's the poster child of why you can't just take the WJ's and ignore the rest of it.   Bouchard was almost two years younger than him, and did better than draft plus one for OJ.    Maybe the team had him as BPA, but doubt it, this was an organizational pick, someone to replace Edler.    Sergachev and Chychrun.   If you wanted a LHD (and why ugh - JB just why always LHD's?) why not pick Chychrun?   A year before the draft, he was even considered as a top 1 or 2 pick given his man sized body.  

 

Sergachev ... even McAvoy if you want a smallish PMD.    That would have been off board like Sieder, but a way better choice.    BPA OJ was not at all.   Did anyone even talk about him on the forum before he was picked?   I had to go look at my books/mags again, to see where he was ranked (at the time), wasn't at all in the 3-5th overall range, and sure wasn't even on the outskirts of my radar, had Chychrun, then Sergachev as maybes - OJ not one bit, because I didn't think we'd trade down that far.   Meanwhile MT was 2-4 by almost everyone, ahead of PLD who seemed to be who JB constantly talked about.   

 

OJ, the cocky draft pick, who at the time said "anyone can go to the gym, but you can't teach hockey smarts".... boy did that backfire on him in a big way.   Didn't seem like he ever figured that out watching him have an asthma attack after a bag skate.     Schenn and Miller saying hold my beer and virtually a half lap ahead of Horvat even on some of those drills.    Can't defend OJ as a pick anymore.   And I was actually one of those guys trying to preach patience.   

 

Reality is the scouts were right.    Prior to the WJ's was anywhere for a mid first round to and early second round.    That's exactly where he should have gone, actually a second rounder not a first at all.   Without his pedigree, and if he was say a 3rd round pick instead, I doubt he'd even get much further than Brisbois.   Who, actually seems to be working out. 

 

Edit:  Someone posted a video of a phone camera when it came time for our pick - fans were screaming Mathew's name.    This dialogue he said he wouldn't play for us is just fiction.   The fans knew we lucked out!   JB sure didn't.    Maybe if we drafted him, we wouldn't have got EP... quite likely we wouldn't have got QHs, that's the silver lining in picking OJ, but that's it.   Why we just passed on a kid with that lineage, and who just was super clutch on the way to the memorial cup ... was it 21 goals in 22 games?   Wow.   Absolute, complete, and total idiocy.   He was considered >> then PLD.    

Edited June 14, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

When Benning was here he controlled the scouts’ list. He picked “his” guy except the one time Trevor stepped in and went with the scouts on Petey. Benning wanted Glass. 
Then Trevor got pushed out. Benning made all our top picks after that too. There was a Canuck video from the Hughes’ draft where Wisebrod says to Benning, after Detroit passed on Hughes, “you got your guy”. Not we got our guy. But specifically “you got your guy”. 
Benning would laser in on “his” guy and then pick him. He did it with Jake and with Juiolevi. Sometimes Benning’s guy was likely also the scouts’ choice too. But the guy we selected was who Benning wanted. Except Petey. That was Linden stepping up to allow the scouts to have their voices heard. 

EP was their guy months ahead of the draft.   JB was 100% on board.   The team actually was very discreet about the entire thing.   To avoid attention, they kept Delorme's visits and contact on the down low and to a minimum.   If anything, JB showed his hand to Vegas, otherwise we'd have added a pick and traded down.   Vegas wanted Glass.   The only other team that reportedly would have picked EP in the top ten was the NYR.    On the flip side, JB didn't take the risk with Vegas either - just in case they did take EP.   It's a bit of a poker game, and deception is part of it.     There was absolutely, zero hint the team was even looking at EP.   That's very very tough to do in the modern day when everyone has a camera phone.    Did Vancouver even openly interview EP?  That would be awesome if they did not, because you can bet every single team is watching what others do around them.   Especially at the combine.   COL knew they had wanted Landeskog after their interview with him.   Then made a show of looking at others guys.   We can't say OJ and JV were "his picks".     And not give him credit for EP. 

 

Edit: As for OJ.  Will keep my eyes and ears open to see what shakes loose now that the former regime is gone.   If I find out his scouting staff wanted someone else, will post what I find.   But it has to be from a reliable source, will also post the source. 

 

Case in point.   JB gave Delorme the credit for EP.   But that quickly turned into a story where Delorme somehow "discovered him".   Which of course is false.  For awhile both Timrafan and I were attempting to say that's not how it happened.   Like virtually every other team in the top ten,  EP wasn't really on the radar.    Just a skinny kid with a great skillset that probably wouldn't translate in the NHL.   For sure not anytime soon, maybe not at all.   Was the common thinking on him.    Not at all worth using a top 5 pick for,  and very risky in the top ten as well.   Thankfully Delorme went to take a look.   And the rest is history. 

As for the source, THN did a cover with EP, and a four or five page story about him, how he was "discovered", his upbringing, and how he prepared for the NHL (wasn't happy about his shot, indentified 21 things wrong with it, and work on each thing, one by one, until he was satisfied ... who does that?  Other than guys like Crosby and the greatest that ever were...).     Before Matheson and two many vowels, EP was doing the impossible,  matching the best in the league for points per game.  

 

Like Lafluer, EP didn't have any skating or skills coaches.   Totally self taught, and like Lafluer has unlimited ice time whenever he wanted it, and used it.   Alien is a great moniker, because he does things that are pretty special and not what your normally see.   
 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by IBatch

[spook007]

6 hours ago, Alflives said:

When Benning was here he controlled the scouts’ list. He picked “his” guy except the one time Trevor stepped in and went with the scouts on Petey. Benning wanted Glass. 
Then Trevor got pushed out. Benning made all our top picks after that too. There was a Canuck video from the Hughes’ draft where Wisebrod says to Benning, after Detroit passed on Hughes, “you got your guy”. Not we got our guy. But specifically “you got your guy”. 
Benning would laser in on “his” guy and then pick him. He did it with Jake and with Juiolevi. Sometimes Benning’s guy was likely also the scouts’ choice too. But the guy we selected was who Benning wanted. Except Petey. That was Linden stepping up to allow the scouts to have their voices heard. 

Alf that is an awful lot of speculation...

 

Benning, for all we know could have said, 'I hope Quinn falls to us...' and Weisbrod just of shear joy said, you got your guy... 

That is not to say, it was Bennings guy, but if they had a list where QH were 2-4th on and he fell to 7th, why should they be happy? And that is part of the entire team and all the scouts...

 

And you don't know, who wanted Juolevi or Jake?... It could just as well have been a decision taken by them all in the room, when they discussed their needs, and who they thought would be the better player down the road.

 

The more I think about the things, said about Barlow being one of the most readily made prospects to join the NHL, I wonder if that was part of Bennings thinking (not saying it was wise),  but if he wanted the team to be competitive a couple of years later, he would need a quick influx of players... JV would fit that narrative, except he ended up being more interested in the good life... 

 

Again just a lot of speculation, but all this King Benning stuff is made up...

[spook007]

42 minutes ago, IBatch said:

EP was their guy months ahead of the draft.   JB was 100% on board.   The team actually was very discreet about the entire thing.   To avoid attention, they kept Delorme's visits and contact on the down low and to a minimum.   If anything, JB showed his hand to Vegas, otherwise we'd have added a pick and traded down.   Vegas wanted Glass.   The only other team that reportedly would have picked EP in the top ten was the NYR.    On the flip side, JB didn't take the risk with Vegas either - just in case they did take EP.   It's a bit of a poker game, and deception is part of it.     There was absolutely, zero hint the team was even looking at EP.   That's very very tough to do in the modern day when everyone has a camera phone.    Did Vancouver even openly interview EP?  That would be awesome if they did not, because you can bet every single team is watching what others do around them.   Especially at the combine.   COL knew they had wanted Landeskog after their interview with him.   Then made a show of looking at others guys.   We can't say OJ and JV were "his picks".     And not give him credit for EP. 

 

Edit: As for OJ.  Will keep my eyes and ears open to see what shakes loose now that the former regime is gone.   If I find out his scouting staff wanted someone else, will post what I find.   But it has to be from a reliable source, will also post the source. 

 

Case in point.   JB gave Delorme the credit for EP.   But that quickly turned into a story where Delorme somehow "discovered him".   Which of course is false.  For awhile both Timrafan and I were attempting to say that's not how it happened.   Like virtually every other team in the top ten,  EP wasn't really on the radar.    Just a skinny kid with a great skillset that probably wouldn't translate in the NHL.   For sure not anytime soon, maybe not at all.   Was the common thinking on him.    Not at all worth using a top 5 pick for,  and very risky in the top ten as well.   Thankfully Delorme went to take a look.   And the rest is history. 

As for the source, THN did a cover with EP, and a four or five page story about him, how he was "discovered", his upbringing, and how he prepared for the NHL (wasn't happy about his shot, indentified 21 things wrong with it, and work on each thing, one by one, until he was satisfied ... who does that?  Other than guys like Crosby and the greatest that ever were...).     Before Matheson and two many vowels, EP was doing the impossible,  matching the best in the league for points per game.  

 

Like Lafluer, EP didn't have any skating or skills coaches.   Totally self taught, and like Lafluer has unlimited ice time whenever he wanted it, and used it.   Alien is a great moniker, because he does things that are pretty special and not what your normally see.   
 

 

Great post @IBatch

[mll]

3 minutes ago, spook007 said:

Alf that is an awful lot of speculation...

 

Benning, for all we know could have said, 'I hope Quinn falls to us...' and Weisbrod just of shear joy said, you got your guy... 

That is not to say, it was Bennings guy, but if they had a list where QH were 2-4th on and he fell to 7th, why should they be happy? And that is part of the entire team and all the scouts...

 

And you don't know, who wanted Juolevi or Jake?... It could just as well have been a decision taken by them all in the room, when they discussed their needs, and who they thought would be the better player down the road.

 

The more I think about the things, said about Barlow being one of the most readily made prospects to join the NHL, I wonder if that was part of Bennings thinking (not saying it was wise),  but if he wanted the team to be competitive a couple of years later, he would need a quick influx of players... JV would fit that narrative, except he ended up being more interested in the good life... 

 

Again just a lot of speculation, but all this King Benning stuff is made up...

 

Ian MacIntyre wrote that Benning over-ruled his scouts on the Juolevi pick:  

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-mailbag-whats-going-gm-jim-benning-judd-brackett/

 

Juolevi was Benning’s choice back in 2016 because the GM wanted a defenceman and loved what he saw from the Finn at the world juniors. He could have chosen Mikhail Sergachev or Charlie McAvoy. Benning is believed to have gone with Brackett’s first-round recommendation ever since.

 

 

[NewbieCanuckFan]

1 minute ago, mll said:

 

Ian MacIntyre wrote that Benning over-ruled his scouts on the Juolevi pick:  

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-mailbag-whats-going-gm-jim-benning-judd-brackett/

 

Juolevi was Benning’s choice back in 2016 because the GM wanted a defenceman and loved what he saw from the Finn at the world juniors. He could have chosen Mikhail Sergachev or Charlie McAvoy. Benning is believed to have gone with Brackett’s first-round recommendation ever since.

 

 

If only OJ was as good as Jim Benning the NHL defenseman (who had a rather serviceable lengthyish NHL career).