Timråfan Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 5 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said: I think the rest of my post shows exactly why Bergeron is the most effective two-way forward in the league. It's the right mixture of scoring and not getting scored on. It's about being able to convert defense into offense. And contrary to handful of folks here who believe Bergeron is a reputation vote and not offensively productive, every statistic points toward Bergeron being #1. Nobody can do it better than him - not even McDavid. And now I want you to put replace Bergeron with Petey in the Bruins. What will happen to both Peteys statistic points and what happens with Bergeron forced to endure the bit with AHL defence and goalies under par? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 (edited) 13 hours ago, DownUndaCanuck said: No argument that he's not good defensively. The argument is that he doesn't score enough anymore to be considered a top forward. 58 points in a league which is far more offence-based is nothing. There were something like what, 70+ PPG scorers, so on average two per team, and Bergeron was well below that. When he won the trophy he was hovering around 1st line, top-20 production but now he's literally 100th in the league in scoring. If this award was purely based on the best defensive forward dare I say there were guys in the past who should have won it over Bergeron, but it's not, it's been about a combination of scoring and defending, and it's always leaned towards guys who are scoring around a PPG, and also are solid defensively (or have decent two way stats like giveaway/takeaways, faceoffs, well before advanced stats, whatever the NHL deemed to be important). Even last year when he won it his offence was down but kind of hovering just under a PPG, but this year he's well below, and in a year where scoring is so much higher, it's a big drop. This has never been purely a defensive award, otherwise PPG top line scorers wouldn't have won it over and over again, they would have given it to guys like Pahlsson, Malhotra and Kris Draper for example. Bergeron has to take his place - he's not a top scorer anymore. Hate to break it to you …… but Bergeron already has won 2 Selkes, when he scored less than 60 points in a season. One in 2015 (55 pts, in 81 games), the other in 2017 (53 pts, in 79 games). Edited April 30, 2023 by shiznak 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 10 hours ago, Timråfan said: And now I want you to put replace Bergeron with Petey in the Bruins. What will happen to both Peteys statistic points and what happens with Bergeron forced to endure the bit with AHL defence and goalies under par? If my grandmother had wheels she would be a bike. Maybe Petey would do better on a different team but that's the way things go. Boston should be rewarded for remaining competitive for so long. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 2 hours ago, Bob.Loblaw said: If my grandmother had wheels she would be a bike. Maybe Petey would do better on a different team but that's the way things go. Boston should be rewarded for remaining competitive for so long. It’s one year too early for Petey anyway. Well, if Petey rush back block a forward from scoring and then another shot goes in due to either defence or goalie, it mess up the statistic very much. So if you put Petey in Bostons team he would probably have better statistics compared with Bergeron and many more points. All the war etc… What that got with your grandmother and Boston get rewarded is something I can’t understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 On 4/29/2023 at 10:49 AM, Elias Pettersson said: Petey after he finishes 2nd in the Selke Trophy voting only to Patrice Bergeron, arguably the greatest two way forward in NHL history... When did you become an Asian woman counting singles? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, Timråfan said: It’s one year too early for Petey anyway. Well, if Petey rush back block a forward from scoring and then another shot goes in due to either defence or goalie, it mess up the statistic very much. So if you put Petey in Bostons team he would probably have better statistics compared with Bergeron and many more points. All the war etc… What that got with your grandmother and Boston get rewarded is something I can’t understand. Perhaps English is not your first language? I am saying that your what-if situation where Petey and Bergeron switch teams is a meaningless, irrelevant question. To quote one of my favourite athletes... Would Pettersson do better on a different team? Doesn't matter. Pettersson is a Canuck. Bergeron is a Bruin. That isn't going to change. One player was more effective for his team than the other. The quality of one's teammates has nothing to do with awarding individual skill. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5nothincanucksohno Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 On 4/29/2023 at 11:04 AM, HorvatToBaertschi said: Lock him up for 8x11. Most talented player to ever play for us hands down. Get'er done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elias Pettersson Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 53 minutes ago, bigbadcanucks said: When did you become an Asian woman counting singles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 1 hour ago, Bob.Loblaw said: Perhaps English is not your first language? I am saying that your what-if situation where Petey and Bergeron switch teams is a meaningless, irrelevant question. To quote one of my favourite athletes... Would Pettersson do better on a different team? Doesn't matter. Pettersson is a Canuck. Bergeron is a Bruin. That isn't going to change. One player was more effective for his team than the other. The quality of one's teammates has nothing to do with awarding individual skill. Ok, so all the statistics that compared Bergeron and Petey with each other is completely individual? How the team besides them lay is irrelevant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Timråfan said: Ok, so all the statistics that compared Bergeron and Petey with each other is completely individual? How the team besides them lay is irrelevant? You're not comparing players. You're asking what would happen if Bergeron played for Vancouver and Pettersson played for Boston. Sure - maybe the statistics would be reversed. Maybe not. Bergeron's individual statistics are very different from his linemates, just how Pettersson's stats are very different from his linemates. But these are all what-if scenarios that should have zero bearing on who deserves the Selke. Talking what-ifs is silly and almost always going to be a waste of time. You're a Timrå fan, right? What if Pettersson's brother Emil signed with Boston and played alongside Marchand and DeBrusk? I'm sure he'd put up good numbers offensively and defensively. Or what if Bergeron played on a trash team like Arizona? Maybe he wouldn't be so good so he doesn't deserve to win the Selke. If my grandma had balls, she would be my grandpa... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timråfan Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 16 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: You're not comparing players. You're asking what would happen if Bergeron played for Vancouver and Pettersson played for Boston. Sure - maybe the statistics would be reversed. Maybe not. Bergeron's individual statistics are very different from his linemates, just how Pettersson's stats are very different from his linemates. But these are all what-if scenarios that should have zero bearing on who deserves the Selke. Talking what-ifs is silly and almost always going to be a waste of time. You're a Timrå fan, right? What if Pettersson's brother Emil signed with Boston and played alongside Marchand and DeBrusk? I'm sure he'd put up good numbers offensively and defensively. Or what if Bergeron played on a trash team like Arizona? Maybe he wouldn't be so good so he doesn't deserve to win the Selke. If my grandma had balls, she would be my grandpa... Not Emil, maybe Anton Lander fits in there. It all depends on how good you are comparing stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 30 minutes ago, Timråfan said: Not Emil, maybe Anton Lander fits in there. It all depends on how good you are comparing stats. I feel like I presented a good argument on why Bergeron played much better than Pettersson in both team and individual settings. If you think you can use analytics and metrics to prove otherwise, go for it. These what-ifs aren't even arguments at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFaithfulCap Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 I don't see him getting nominated. Too many voters are asleep and not watching game tape for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 On 4/29/2023 at 1:49 PM, Elias Pettersson said: Petey after he finishes 2nd in the Selke Trophy voting only to Patrice Bergeron, arguably the greatest two way forward in NHL history... In his mind thinking about walking into Allvins office to sign his next deal .. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 On 4/30/2023 at 6:25 AM, shiznak said: Hate to break it to you …… but Bergeron already has won 2 Selkes, when he scored less than 60 points in a season. One in 2015 (55 pts, in 81 games), the other in 2017 (53 pts, in 79 games). Not to mention Bob Gainey whose play inspired the trophy, wasn't a scorer at all, especially considering that era. Neither was Guy Carbonneua. Scoring a bunch of points and the Selke actually are pretty meaningless. Aside from Federov and Datayuk, most guys who've won it or considered for it, weren't high scoring players. Lehtinen. Anyways Bergeron had Kesler competing with him for half a decade ... aside from that nobody really touched him accept Stone IMO, who for some reason, has rarely got the respect he truly deserves, maybe because he's a winger. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 On 4/29/2023 at 2:49 PM, DrJockitch said: Bure played mostly before the height of the clutch and grab era, it really started around 1997 but peaked in the early aughts. The mobility of todays defenceman and the coaching is another level, he would have been very good today but not sure he really would have been that much better. It started after 1994...and it was already in the league for years (clutching and grabbing), if you'd like I can show you quotes from GM's, coach's and players who'd be complaining about it in 1992,1993,1994,1995 etc. NJ and expansion added an element to it for sure. That also started in 1994. Bure for sure was victim of clutching and grabbing, going back to his earliest days. Heck Babych was a master of it - can't count how many times I watched him one arm hold a player to keep him out of the play. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 4 hours ago, IBatch said: It started after 1994...and it was already in the league for years (clutching and grabbing), if you'd like I can show you quotes from GM's, coach's and players who'd be complaining about it in 1992,1993,1994,1995 etc. NJ and expansion added an element to it for sure. That also started in 1994. Bure for sure was victim of clutching and grabbing, going back to his earliest days. Heck Babych was a master of it - can't count how many times I watched him one arm hold a player to keep him out of the play. Clutch and grab hockey goes way back. Gretzky complained about so much in the early 80's he got the nickname Whine Gretzky. What really changed in the late 90's was the rise in teams employing the trap. Add a lot of clutch and grab to the trap and it stifled offense. One thing that could get through it was speed. Bure had that in spades. Where you really saw the drop in high scoring was the 96/97 season with only 2 players putting up 100+. points down from 12 players the season before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyCuddles Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 If he's a runner up playing on a team with the 9th worst GA in the league and the league worst PK. I dunno man. Seems like fan service to suggest he even belongs in the convo. I get it's a team game, but if you are the 2nd best defensive forward in the league, it should have some effect on team success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 11 minutes ago, N7Nucks said: If he's a runner up playing on a team with the 9th worst GA in the league and the league worst PK. I dunno man. Seems like fan service to suggest he even belongs in the convo. I get it's a team game, but if you are the 2nd best defensive forward in the league, it should have some effect on team success. I would say it probably did have an effect on team success. He prevented the team from being much much worse. Players are already disqualified from the Hart Trophy if their team doesn't make the playoffs and I've been against that for years...but I think the DQs should stop there. Pettersson led the league in shorthanded goals and somehow was a +16 on a team with a -22 goal differential. Honestly it is quite impressive that he and Hughes managed a +16 and a +15 under their circumstances. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby James Posted May 1, 2023 Share Posted May 1, 2023 I dunno if he'll actually finish in the top 3 this year. But regardless of this year's vote (Bergeron will likely win of course) so exciting for Petey. His 2 way play has gotten so solid and will hopefully get better still. LOCK HIM UP - 8 Years! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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