TheCammer Posted June 29, 2023 Share Posted June 29, 2023 On 6/14/2023 at 6:56 AM, Alflives said: Aquilini dumped Nonis for not trading futures in hopeful win now moves. Gillis followed the direction (with great success) but he too was fired when suggesting a rebuild was needed. Now this with Trevor. Hopefully our new management can do what Gillis did but win that extra game. Don't agree on your Nonis theory. He traded loads of draft picks for what turned out to be the Square root of F All. He was fired for sheer incompetence. (Although the Loungo trade was a good one and helped Gillis almost get us the Cup) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocanuck Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 Gillis did fine adding pieces to give us a chance to win the cup.. most teams in this position do exactly the same thing. Its hard to hit on minimal picks to keep the train rolling. Linden would have been amazing and even the benning hire was well though of given Boston's success. If we took trevors direction the team had a chance to rebuild and perhaps in 5 years been competitive again. The owner with his impatience wanted a winning team too quickly basically forcing bennings hand to re tool with over priced below average acquisitions. There is no way the oel trade goes through without approval from ownership. It was another attempt to save bennings job and have a winning team too quickly. Ownership and impatience has been the big problem.. trevor was a class act for walking away and saying nothing negetive for how he was treated and the poor direction the team was headed 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 18 hours ago, TheCammer said: Don't agree on your Nonis theory. He traded loads of draft picks for what turned out to be the Square root of F All. He was fired for sheer incompetence. (Although the Loungo trade was a good one and helped Gillis almost get us the Cup) Nonis hired a soon to be Jack Adams trophy winner for our head coach. He was the GM that drafted Edler He was the GM that signed FA Willie Mitchell Was "only" on the job as GM for 4 years (one of which was a lockout I think) I'll take that level of incompetance over 7+ years of 'going around in circles' with the likes of Willie D & Travis Green. Make no mistake, Nonis had his faults but he was far from the worst GM this team has ever had imho. Edited June 30, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 On 6/16/2023 at 12:05 PM, Dr. Crossbar said: So, there's a massive contradiction that no one is addressing when it comes to Linden, and one that he, himself, needs to own. I love the guy and feel for the messy position he was in. But ... Linden said it was a mess when he got the role and accurately admitted to the mixed messages of trying to rebuild and retool on the fly ... “We were probably trying to play both sides of it too much,” Linden admitted. “Someone in my spot, I tried to have a longer vision, but at times that didn’t work for people.” But here's the issue ... He also admits to the amount of NTCs and the Sedins as major obstacles ... and that he, himself, was not willing to break those contracts. “It was a tough spot because there was a lot of players on contracts that were difficult, that weren’t really moveable. There was a lot of [players with no-trade clauses]. There was a lot of difficulty there. Obviously, you’ve got two iconic players, Hall of Fame players, that I wasn’t prepared to ask them to move.” So, it's fine for Linden to say he was the one to have a longer vision and come off looking like the good rebuild guy ... BUT ... In his own words ... he was also the guy who wasn't prepared to break the immoveable contracts. So in many ways he was also preventing that longer vision from actually happening by making the decision to honor the Sedins contracts and the upwards of 10 immovable contracts at the time. In hindsight ... the full tear down should have happened after the Torts season, when your experienced Stanley Cup winning coach says the core is stale. And it's sad now because Torts was right in so many ways ... even the focus on blocking shots. I love Linden and he really was caught between a rock and a hard place, a really messy situation. I don't fault him for honoring those contracts ... it's the professional and honorable thing to do. And it would have been excruciating to watch the Sedins hoist the Cup with another team. More salt in the wound. So, what do you do. I didn't envy the guy. But looking back, it is clear that a different and perhaps more painful decision should have been made instead of trying to have things both ways, playing both sides. That old saying is around for a reason. "So, it's fine for Linden to say he was the one to have a longer vision and come off looking like the good rebuild guy ... BUT ... In his own words ... he was also the guy who wasn't prepared to break the immoveable contracts." You make a good point here. Looking back, Linden was the wrong choice for President of Hockey Operations then not just because of inexperience, but also his close relationship, as an ex player, with the veteran players on the team. It was like forcing a person to chose between his head and his heart. It was an impossible position for Trevor. He was installed as President to shore up season ticket sales after a big dip. That's it. And to shut up and go along with whatever hackneyed plan Aqulini and Benning dreamed up. It seemed like a big honour at the time, but in retrospect, it was a huge disrespect to use him and his reputation to whitewash a debacle. Should have hired an experienced, neutral President that was actually granted the respect and power to make decisions, and not a figurehead to smooth public relations for the short sighted gambles that Aqua and JB were plotting. If I was cynical I might even suggest they hired Linden, in part, BECAUSE they knew he would probably resist the idea of force-trading away players who he knew and was friendly with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 14 minutes ago, kilgore said: "So, it's fine for Linden to say he was the one to have a longer vision and come off looking like the good rebuild guy ... BUT ... In his own words ... he was also the guy who wasn't prepared to break the immoveable contracts." You make a good point here. Looking back, Linden was the wrong choice for President of Hockey Operations then not just because of inexperience, but also his close relationship, as an ex player, with the veteran players on the team. It was like forcing a person to chose between his head and his heart. It was an impossible position for Trevor. He was installed as President to shore up season ticket sales after a big dip. That's it. And to shut up and go along with whatever hackneyed plan Aqulini and Benning dreamed up. It seemed like a big honour at the time, but in retrospect, it was a huge disrespect to use him and his reputation to whitewash a debacle. Should have hired an experienced, neutral President that was actually granted the respect and power to make decisions, and not a figurehead to smooth public relations for the short sighted gambles that Aqua and JB were plotting. If I was cynical I might even suggest they hired Linden, in part, BECAUSE they knew he would probably resist the idea of force-trading away players who he knew and was friendly with. Linden wasn't the wrong choice in itself. Issue was having SO MANY inexperienced management in their hired roles. JB had experience in management but none as a GM. Willie had experience as a head coach but NONE as a head coach at the NHL level. When John freaking Weisbrod is the main guy as having experience as a GM had of a major league sports team, it's asking for trouble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, kilgore said: "So, it's fine for Linden to say he was the one to have a longer vision and come off looking like the good rebuild guy ... BUT ... In his own words ... he was also the guy who wasn't prepared to break the immoveable contracts." You make a good point here. Looking back, Linden was the wrong choice for President of Hockey Operations then not just because of inexperience, but also his close relationship, as an ex player, with the veteran players on the team. It was like forcing a person to chose between his head and his heart. It was an impossible position for Trevor. He was installed as President to shore up season ticket sales after a big dip. That's it. And to shut up and go along with whatever hackneyed plan Aqulini and Benning dreamed up. It seemed like a big honour at the time, but in retrospect, it was a huge disrespect to use him and his reputation to whitewash a debacle. Should have hired an experienced, neutral President that was actually granted the respect and power to make decisions, and not a figurehead to smooth public relations for the short sighted gambles that Aqua and JB were plotting. If I was cynical I might even suggest they hired Linden, in part, BECAUSE they knew he would probably resist the idea of force-trading away players who he knew and was friendly with. You make a great point as well. Especially the impossible situation and the choice between head and heart. In many ways the amount of NTC/NMCs made it easier to choose from the heart and remain loyal. There were upwards of 10 immovable contracts. They chose to work around those for the next four years, which prevented a rebuild. And really, there was no way he was going to break those contracts because he's an honorable guy and was always going to do the honorable thing in honoring those contracts. It's hard to fault him for that. That's who he is. He's a nice guy. He was never going to do the not nice thing. But at that moment in time when Linden was hired was the year that a rebuild should have happened. It's even more obvious today. Especially in hindsight. Imo, the real problem - and where all of this went wrong - was the Torts season. I don't think people truly understood what Torts was doing at the time. He was literally blowing up the team. He was testing them to the extreme to see who would rise and who would fail. In many ways, it was similar to what Tocchet's did late last season to identify the passengers and dead weight. People here were so used to a losing culture, they melted down and couldn't handle what Torts was doing and what really needed to happen. He exposed the team for what it was and even told everyone at the end of the season ... the core was stale. That's the exact moment the organization should have been truly honest rather than blaming Torts and making him the fall guy. That offseason should have been the time to understand that a complete teardown had to happen. Torts was creating the change we needed. He should have been given another season, because it's likely more extreme change would have happened. Unfortunately, people just couldn't handle it. So, with that in mind, this is where a neutral President should have been hired, one that could make the tough, uncomfortable decisions that needed to be made. It's kind of hard for me to say that Linden was the wrong guy to hire because I honestly feel the wrong decision was made to blame Torts and the fans reaction to change was wrong ... when what we needed was extreme change. The organization wasn't honest with what really needed to happen, which set the stage for what we saw the very next season. Again, I don't blame Linden for honoring those contracts. I just think some fans romanticize Linden as a rebuild saviour who was prevented from executing a long vision when his own decisions made a rebuild much harder. The more I think about it, the more messy it gets ... I can't imagine how Linden felt. Edited June 30, 2023 by Dr. Crossbar 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 I should add that the organization *DID* have a sound plan at the beginning where Pat Quinn was supposed to be in an advisory capacity to help Linden. Unfortunately, there was no backup plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieVedder Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 1 hour ago, Dr. Crossbar said: You make a great point as well. Especially the impossible situation and the choice between head and heart. In many ways the amount of NTC/NMCs made it easier to choose from the heart and remain loyal. There were upwards of 10 immovable contracts. They chose to work around those for the next four years, which prevented a rebuild. And really, there was no way he was going to break those contracts because he's an honorable guy and was always going to do the honorable thing in honoring those contracts. It's hard to fault him for that. That's who he is. He's a nice guy. He was never going to do the not nice thing. But at that moment in time when Linden was hired was the year that a rebuild should have happened. It's even more obvious today. Especially in hindsight. Imo, the real problem - and where all of this went wrong - was the Torts season. I don't think people truly understood what Torts was doing at the time. He was literally blowing up the team. He was testing them to the extreme to see who would rise and who would fail. In many ways, it was similar to what Tocchet's did late last season to identify the passengers and dead weight. People here were so used to a losing culture, they melted down and couldn't handle what Torts was doing and what really needed to happen. He exposed the team for what it was and even told everyone at the end of the season ... the core was stale. That's the exact moment the organization should have been truly honest rather than blaming Torts and making him the fall guy. That offseason should have been the time to understand that a complete teardown had to happen. Torts was creating the change we needed. He should have been given another season, because it's likely more extreme change would have happened. Unfortunately, people just couldn't handle it. So, with that in mind, this is where a neutral President should have been hired, one that could make the tough, uncomfortable decisions that needed to be made. It's kind of hard for me to say that Linden was the wrong guy to hire because I honestly feel the wrong decision was made to blame Torts and the fans reaction to change was wrong ... when what we needed was extreme change. The organization wasn't honest with what really needed to happen, which set the stage for what we saw the very next season. Again, I don't blame Linden for honoring those contracts. I just think some fans romanticize Linden as a rebuild saviour who was prevented from executing a long vision when his own decisions made a rebuild much harder. The more I think about it, the more messy it gets ... I can't imagine how Linden felt. Tortz sucked. He even admitted that his heart was not in it in Vancouver. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 58 minutes ago, EddieVedder said: Tortz sucked. He even admitted that his heart was not in it in Vancouver. He won the Jack Adams trophy as "Coach of the Year" the year following he was fired from the Canucks. He didn't last long there either though (has a short shelf-life). Willie D & Travis Green can pay admission to the HHOF (as that'll be as close as they're going to get to that trophy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopshodan Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, EddieVedder said: Tortz sucked. He even admitted that his heart was not in it in Vancouver. Didn't he commute across the border? I think he lived in Point Roberts. Hated his coaching style. Loved that he was a dog lover but thats about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, EddieVedder said: Tortz sucked. He even admitted that his heart was not in it in Vancouver. Torts was right and people couldn't handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baratheon Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 9 minutes ago, bishopshodan said: Didn't he commute across the border? I think he lived in Point Roberts. Hated his coaching style. Loved that he was a dog lover but thats about it. I still think it’s so funny that CBJ gave us a 2nd rounder for the right to have that idiot coach them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw Posted July 1, 2023 Author Share Posted July 1, 2023 45 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said: Torts was right and people couldn't handle it. Wrong time. Probably would've been better after Green got fired. Ironically, Boudreau also came at the wrong time. If he has replaced Vigneault, he also would've done better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 33 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said: Wrong time. Probably would've been better after Green got fired. Ironically, Boudreau also came at the wrong time. If he has replaced Vigneault, he also would've done better. Interesting way to look at it ... totally get what you're saying. I kind of liken what Tocchet is doing to what Torts was trying to do ... only now it's ten years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 3 hours ago, EddieVedder said: Tortz sucked. He even admitted that his heart was not in it in Vancouver. Well he did live in Point Roberts so he could get his tax shelter lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, bishopshodan said: Didn't he commute across the border? I think he lived in Point Roberts. Hated his coaching style. Loved that he was a dog lover but thats about it. Yep. Funny story. Me and my bro's went to Pink Floyd in 94, took the ferry over were super early and decided to go to PT Roberts. To get some cheap beer and cigs. Problem with that idea was that we had some joints with us. Yes we got caught. We did make it to the concert (again really early) but it was expensive. And we all got strip searched. And one of us still can't fly through the US lol. So Point Roberts isn't my favourite place. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 4 minutes ago, IBatch said: Yep. Funny story. Me and my bro's went to Pink Floyd in 94, took the ferry over were super early and decided to go to PT Roberts. To get some cheap beer and cigs. Problem with that idea was that we had some joints with us. Yes we got caught. We did make it to the concert (again really early) but it was expensive. And we all got strip searched. And one of us still can't fly through the US lol. So Point Roberts isn't my favourite place. I was at the second show in 94. Moved here from Nova Scotia. Lined up at Zulu Records. The enrire show felt like this ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieVedder Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 2 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said: Torts was right and people couldn't handle it. What was he right about? The team made the playoffs the yr after he was fired. No one was saying hold onto the core forever. The team still had more to give. Heck, the guy tried to get burrows traded while he was injured. That yr had more turmoil than any year. Thats all anyone needs to know to understand how far off he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 1 minute ago, EddieVedder said: What was he right about? The team made the playoffs the yr after he was fired. No one was saying hold onto the core forever. The team still had more to give. Heck, the guy tried to get burrows traded while he was injured. That yr had more turmoil than any year. Thats all anyone needs to know to understand how far off he was. He was right in the team needed to be blown up. The core was stale. We needed extreme change. He was creating extreme change He was 100% right. Fans couldn't handle it. You know Torts was proven right ... right? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said: He was right in the team needed to be blown up. The core was stale. We needed extreme change. He was creating extreme change He was 100% right. Fans couldn't handle it. You know Torts was proven right ... right? Well we did get a 2nd round pick (55th overall) compensation pick for the Blue Jackets signing Torts. We'd be lucky to get one used condom for either Willie or Green (yes, I know they removed that compensation now) Edited July 1, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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