Toews Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 3 hours ago, EddieVedder said: What was he right about? The team made the playoffs the yr after he was fired. No one was saying hold onto the core forever. The team still had more to give. Heck, the guy tried to get burrows traded while he was injured. That yr had more turmoil than any year. Thats all anyone needs to know to understand how far off he was. That the core was "stale" and that there needed to be serious changes in order to for us to get back to being a contending team. When he saw the disinterest from ownership towards making those changes he checked out, I can't say I blame him. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieVedder Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 18 minutes ago, Toews said: That the core was "stale" and that there needed to be serious changes in order to for us to get back to being a contending team. When he saw the disinterest from ownership towards making those changes he checked out, I can't say I blame him. The team was barely 2 yrs from almost winning it all with several core players still in their prime. Thats why we made the playoffs with a weaker roster the year he got fired. Tortz isnt some type of genius coach a few try make him out to be. Hes an outspoken hothead that appeals to low iqed ppl. The guy didnt even care enough about this city or franchise to live in the country during the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, EddieVedder said: The team was barely 2 yrs from almost winning it all with several core players still in their prime. Thats why we made the playoffs with a weaker roster the year he got fired. Tortz isnt some type of genius coach a few try make him out to be. Hes an outspoken hothead that appeals to low iqed ppl. The guy didnt even care enough about this city or franchise to live in the country during the season. Actually they ended up setting up some sort of cot/bed at Rogers for him to sleep over there instead of driving across the border like he was doing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Toews said: That the core was "stale" and that there needed to be serious changes in order to for us to get back to being a contending team. When he saw the disinterest from ownership towards making those changes he checked out, I can't say I blame him. I'm glad others can see it for what it was. He wasn't wrong. He came into a losing culture, tried to use his expertise to create change, and everyone melted down. Ownership and fans wanted status quo and blamed him instead of accepting the reality. It was the embodiment of the truth hurts. Punctuated by him winning the Jack Adams. We had egg on our faces. Edited July 1, 2023 by Dr. Crossbar 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 5 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said: I was at the second show in 94. Moved here from Nova Scotia. Lined up at Zulu Records. The enrire show felt like this ... We were center floor, maybe 20 rows in, their first show. Started a bit too early, and by the second half we had all indulged more then we should have. Also we couldn't see the light show without looking behind us at times - so got another set of tickets the following day, 1/3 way up the seats, close enough to see them on the stage well, and really enjoy the lights. Money was super tight back then, we were all basically broke, pay cheque to pay cheque, emptied my bank account pretty good between our lawyer fees getting out of jail earlier that day, sure glad i went though can't put a price on those memories in 94. Preferred the second show for that reason, best concert i've been too. The floor was cool for sure, but we all liked the seats better. Somehow they figured out the acoustics in BC Place as well. Dr. Crossbar, glad you were there to enjoy it as well! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, Dr. Crossbar said: I'm glad others can see it for what it was. He wasn't wrong. He came into a losing culture, tried to use his expertise to create change, and everyone melted down. Ownership and fans wanted status quo and blamed him instead of accepting the reality. It was the embodiment of the truth hurts. Punctuated by him winning the Jack Adams. We had egg on our faces. Somehow we got a second out of that which I think might have been the last time it was allowed. Torts was right, we just didn't want to acknowledge it yet. Actually had the team playing pretty well, just couldn't sustain that pace. For sure a great coach. And, someone made a hilarious song "Don't Push Me" ... so at least we've always got that. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 1 hour ago, EddieVedder said: The team was barely 2 yrs from almost winning it all with several core players still in their prime. Thats why we made the playoffs with a weaker roster the year he got fired. Tortz isnt some type of genius coach a few try make him out to be. Hes an outspoken hothead that appeals to low iqed ppl. The guy didnt even care enough about this city or franchise to live in the country during the season. Guy literally went into the enemy locker room to stand up for his team. Hot head for sure. Doesn't mean we should hate on him. Almost won a cup with NYR, and did some pretty unlikely things with CLB too. He's managed to adapt his style to stay relevant, and does have a deserved reputation in overstaying his welcome, and eventually losing the room. That core did need an injection of good young players ... aside from Horvats rookie year, didn't have much to work with in that regard. Hard not to understand why, given it took MG six drafts to do that, and Edler was drafted the first or Nonis's four drafts. A decade yikes! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 12 minutes ago, IBatch said: We were center floor, maybe 20 rows in, their first show. Started a bit too early, and by the second half we had all indulged more then we should have. Also we couldn't see the light show without looking behind us at times - so got another set of tickets the following day, 1/3 way up the seats, close enough to see them on the stage well, and really enjoy the lights. Money was super tight back then, we were all basically broke, pay cheque to pay cheque, emptied my bank account pretty good between our lawyer fees getting out of jail earlier that day, sure glad i went though can't put a price on those memories in 94. Preferred the second show for that reason, best concert i've been too. The floor was cool for sure, but we all liked the seats better. Somehow they figured out the acoustics in BC Place as well. Dr. Crossbar, glad you were there to enjoy it as well! IBatch, we're on the same page. It was a special moment in time. I had only been here six months and literally told my work peeps I'm taking two hours off to get tickets so you're going to have to let me do it or fire me. I wasn't going to miss the opportunity. Interestingly enough, my co-workers all covered for me so I could line up at Zulu. I was 23 and green/naive from Nova Scotia. It taught me to hold true to what you believe in even if you were risking it all. At the show ... my buddy and I got stuck between two groups of people tripping out on acid and both groups ended up giving us their weed for free because they were too f****d up to smoke it ... so we helped them out big time. Lol ... that was my first concert in Vancouver. Still to this day it's the best show I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 26 minutes ago, IBatch said: Guy literally went into the enemy locker room to stand up for his team. I mean, that says it all. The guy doesn't get enough respect. He knew what was up. We weren't ready to accept the truth. The problem ... It wasn't him. It was us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alt kilgore Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 6 minutes ago, IBatch said: Guy literally went into the enemy locker room to stand up for his team. Hot head for sure. Doesn't mean we should hate on him. Almost won a cup with NYR, and did some pretty unlikely things with CLB too. He's managed to adapt his style to stay relevant, and does have a deserved reputation in overstaying his welcome, and eventually losing the room. That core did need an injection of good young players ... aside from Horvats rookie year, didn't have much to work with in that regard. Hard not to understand why, given it took MG six drafts to do that, and Edler was drafted the first or Nonis's four drafts. A decade yikes! Yeah. The point is that it doesn't matter if Torts was kept on or not, or was the right coach for that team at that time, he was right with his assessment of the staleness of the team. Which was promptly ignored. In spite of the teams brave efforts and physical sacrifice, the Canucks ultimately didn't bring the Cup to Vancouver in 2011. But it was worth the journey and the shot. But after that the Presidents trophy repeats in 2012 season ended it badly with Daniel's concussion, and a sweep by the Sharks to end the playoffs early. And things only went down from there. Bad timing for a lock out to start 2012/13 for half a season. So in hindsight, which admittedly is 20/20, management could have blown it up way back when Torts first made his comments, when the core was close to its highest value on the market. He actually said on his way out in 2014 he felt from "day one" that the team was stale. He was hired in 2013, five months before we re-signed the Sedins to a shiny new 4 year contract. What might have been. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Crossbar Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, kilgore said: Yeah. The point is that it doesn't matter if Torts was kept on or not, or was the right coach for that team at that time, he was right with his assessment of the staleness of the team. Which was promptly ignored. In spite of the teams brave efforts and physical sacrifice, the Canucks ultimately didn't bring the Cup to Vancouver in 2011. But it was worth the journey and the shot. But after that the Presidents trophy repeats in 2012 season ended it badly with Daniel's concussion, and a sweep by the Sharks to end the playoffs early. And things only went down from there. Bad timing for a lock out to start 2012/13 for half a season. So in hindsight, which admittedly is 20/20, management could have blown it up way back when Torts first made his comments, when the core was close to its highest value on the market. He actually said on his way out in 2014 he felt from "day one" that the team was stale. He was hired in 2013, five months before we re-signed the Sedins to a shiny new 4 year contract. What might have been. I'm so glad you pointed out the timing of his hiring and the Sedins extension. We rushed to sign them without waiting to see how that season - and the change - would evolve. We should have waited to see if the Sedins fit into the changes. At the time, I remember thinking ... we're locking these guys in when we KNOW we have to change. We re-signed Edler that year, too. We signed those guys in an attempt to make good on 2011 when it was over by that point. Even earlier ... when we didn't bring back Ehrhoff, that was the point that proved we weren't serious. Yet we were making decisions as if we could get back to another kick at the can. The wheels of the next decade were set in motion before Torts and Linden. Edited July 1, 2023 by Dr. Crossbar 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said: I'm so glad you pointed out the timing of his hiring and the Sedins extension. We rushed to sign them without waiting to see how that season - and the change - would evolve. We should have waited to see if the Sedins fit into the changes. At the time, I remember thinking ... we're locking these guys in when we KNOW we have to change. We re-signed Edler that year, too. We signed those guys in an attempt to make good on 2011 when it was over by that point. Even earlier ... when we didn't bring back Ehrhoff, that was the point that proved we weren't serious. Yet we were making decisions as if we could get back to another kick at the can. The wheels of the next decade were set in motion before Torts and Linden. Re-signing the Sedins was bittersweet. On one hand, we had them their entire careers. Rare. Sakic. Yzerman. Lidstrom. It was rare before, and after the lockout became a thing of the past really. Almost all teams say goodbye to their players at some point now, regardless of how good or great they are. Ovi and Crosby, you just never do know, but they do appear to be with their teams until the end. Ovi is about to go through a re-tool, maybe even a full rebuild for the first time in his career. Crosby is close to that as well. Other HHOFers (or future ones) around the Sedins age went elsewhere, Iginla, Thornton, Marleau, Alfie even had a kick at a can with Detroit. Believe this was a little bit divisive with a certain portion of the fanbase, myself included a little bit, that they didn't want to chase a cup. At 33, they signed a higher cap percentage deal than the previous one. They were virtually impossible to trade even with 50% retention as a pair. The time to rebuild, of course in hindsight, would have been then. And just let them walk. That's a pretty bad PR situation to deal with. Two of the greatest Canucks ever, and only a couple years removed from a brief moment at the tippy top. As for Erhoff, wouldn't at all consider that a pivotal moment, the team was very wise not to match the deal he got. Fell off a cliff soon after, and we had other PP options. Hamhuis and Bieksa were more imperative, and important to the team. Arguably one of the best pairs we've ever had, and for sure considered our top pairing during the Sedins peak. Bieksa never got his chance to run the PP, even though him and Hamhuis has the toughest assignments, and one year he tied Weber for most points 5 x 5 in the league. Erhoff of course was an important player during his brief time here. Helped make the sum of its parts better than individual pieces. But we couldn't afford him. And it was better for us right away cap wise. As a gentle reminder, the Sedins got paid very well their entire time with us. Even during the WCE era, they got a very very hefty bridge cap percentage wise (8.5%ish each), too much really for what they'd done up to then. But one thing that helped us, was the 2009 financial crisis and the timing of their legacy contract. Flat cap and we got them both for around 22% of the overall cap during their peak, and they signed for 5 years to get the most money they possibly could for what they'd done up to then. They were paid to be PPG guys, but we got a couple years of over the top production. Their last deal... same for Burrows and Bieksa, the team kind overpaid to make up, or at least it kind of seemed that way to me, despite being UFAs. The Sedins on the open market, would have gone their separate ways to get close to the same contracts they got at the end. Not sure why the team didn't leverage that a little bit, if we really wanted to have another crack at it, the Sedins should have left at least one million each on table, instead they got an extra half or so percentage point each, and never waived. It was tough before that, having two guys take up that much cap. Why we always had Kesler with whatever else they could swing. WCE era had goaltending issues. And was mostly a one line team (Sedins just couldn't handle that type of pre-lockout hockey, after the Linden era just felt like a one line team really). Peak Sedin era also had its challenges, it's what happens. In reality, the best thing for the team, would have been to offer them 5-6 million dollar deals, which still would have been very fair given their age and the cap back then, but instead gave them raises. MG deserves and for sure earned some of his criticism. For sure ended up with correctly coined "Country Club" mentality. They were all extremely well paid, also back then the BC taxes were on par with Alberta. Even Hansen was given a full NTC. Won't complain too much because that was a great team, and a great time to be a fan. But tactically it was a failed opportunity. Always knew, best case, that after that deal, it would be part of post Sedin core 1 (which we now have) and parts of the core behind it, that best case, we'd contend again: Each cup final appearance took a little longer. We got virtually zilch other than Horvat and Sutter from that great team. Sad but true. Expansion teams from the old rules for more to work with. A decade between Edler's and Horvats draft (9 years I think). Part of that was from all the winning, but equal parts bad drafting. Only one first was traded along the way. It's not like we were Detroit and year after year, trading our first to give the team the best chance to win a cup. The exchange for all the winning from 2000-2014, and doing that final deal, was we got the Sedins from start to finish. Look at CHI. They won 3 cups, and still sent Kane and all rest over the years packing. Can see why some folks aren't super happy about this. JB for sure had enough time, also I have no illusions he or anyone else for that matter was ever going to make another contending core back to back to back. If Holland couldn't do it in Detroit, why would anyone expect JB to somehow manage it? Not with 30-32 teams. And glad that we had the Sedins from start to finish because it was unlikely to matter that much anyways. At least the team was very classy about how we treated them. And now they are helping us. Hope one day they can get their names on a cup. Edited July 1, 2023 by IBatch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dr. Crossbar said: I mean, that says it all. The guy doesn't get enough respect. He knew what was up. We weren't ready to accept the truth. The problem ... It wasn't him. It was us. Yep. And again ... his "Don't Push Me" music video, is priceless. "Have to protect my team"..:"not proud of it" ... "but i'd do it all again" ... "and we found a way to win". For sure we weren't ready to give up on those guys. 7th overall finish probably fooled JB into thinking they were also on the right path. Other way the team could have just let things sink on their own, was after trading Luongo, not gone out and signed Ryan Miller. In the end, the rebuild phase, as when you trade you blue chip vets was 2017, well after they didn't have much of any real value. Edited July 1, 2023 by IBatch 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakrami Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 On 6/15/2023 at 12:34 AM, NewbieCanuckFan said: So Benning has no balls and is totally spineless. Great person to have being the GM of an organization. Why not just hire a trained monkey if they're just going to be following orders? Be far cheaper so the owner can buy his son that $40,000 computer. Yeah this is a ridiculous statement.. Most people have a boss, just because you have to follow the orders of your boss that does not make you spineless - it is just how life works. There are rules and you have to work within the bounderies. Aqualini being an extreme control freak and micro managed is way overblown to me. He probably has a mandate given to his GMs like he wants to make the playoffs this season - make it happen. And probably 1 or 2 directives like Pettersson is untouchable. And then he goes hands off - which is more than fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 6 hours ago, IBatch said: Guy literally went into the enemy locker room to stand up for his team. Hot head for sure. Doesn't mean we should hate on him. Almost won a cup with NYR, and did some pretty unlikely things with CLB too. He's managed to adapt his style to stay relevant, and does have a deserved reputation in overstaying his welcome, and eventually losing the room. That core did need an injection of good young players ... aside from Horvats rookie year, didn't have much to work with in that regard. Hard not to understand why, given it took MG six drafts to do that, and Edler was drafted the first or Nonis's four drafts. A decade yikes! He even apologized publically for putting a player into a position where he'd have to fight (re: Flamers game where they sent out essentially 5 goons/fighters on the ice). Torts felt he had no choice but to send out five big guys out there. I forgot the Canuck players name but apparently that guy had his parents/friends there at the game watching & Torts felt embarrassed by having to take that action (don't think that Canucks player was a fighter but was 'big'). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IBatch Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 46 minutes ago, NewbieCanuckFan said: He even apologized publically for putting a player into a position where he'd have to fight (re: Flamers game where they sent out essentially 5 goons/fighters on the ice). Torts felt he had no choice but to send out five big guys out there. I forgot the Canuck players name but apparently that guy had his parents/friends there at the game watching & Torts felt embarrassed by having to take that action (don't think that Canucks player was a fighter but was 'big'). Think it was a rookie. Can't remember his name, but know Bieksa came in and took his spot so he didn't have to fight someone that likely would have creamed him. McGratton was by far the best fighter on the ice, and Tom Sestito, who was big but not a good fighter really, had to line up against him. We don't get this angle, but it also happened to be the turning point in Calgary's season, it united their dressing room. More than a few articles were written about it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Biestra Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 5 hours ago, IBatch said: Think it was a rookie. Can't remember his name, but know Bieksa came in and took his spot so he didn't have to fight someone that likely would have creamed him. McGratton was by far the best fighter on the ice, and Tom Sestito, who was big but not a good fighter really, had to line up against him. We don't get this angle, but it also happened to be the turning point in Calgary's season, it united their dressing room. More than a few articles were written about it. Kellan Lain if I remember right but who knows, I could be confusing marginal historical Canucks. Next up, my retrospective on Jim Agnew. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred65 Posted July 1, 2023 Share Posted July 1, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kevin Biestra said: Kellan Lain if I remember right but who knows, I could be confusing marginal historical Canucks. Next up, my retrospective on Jim Agnew. Yeah Kellan Lain, Bieska pushed him out the way at centre because he was up clearly out matched by Kevin Westgarth ( westgarth and Beska were friend ) Later in the brawl Laine did match up againsy Westgarth and did OK Edited July 1, 2023 by Fred65 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Citizen Erased Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 On 6/30/2023 at 3:13 PM, NewbieCanuckFan said: I should add that the organization *DID* have a sound plan at the beginning where Pat Quinn was supposed to be in an advisory capacity to help Linden. Unfortunately, there was no backup plan. I hadn’t heard that about Pat. What happened? He passed away not long after, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted July 2, 2023 Share Posted July 2, 2023 7 minutes ago, Citizen Erased said: I hadn’t heard that about Pat. What happened? He passed away not long after, right? Yeah unfortunately he passed away before that could happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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