[Buyout] Oliver Ekman-Larsson

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, chon derry said:

At 64,years old and having played at a reasonably good  level of competition ,I can safely say, I never had to witness vegas and their  grizzled backend to know that’s what it takes. Hell  I knew that back in the early 70 s when the Habs proved it. To my point. Tell me that, that vegas  backend  couldn’t stand up a player like benson. And stop him in his tracks.  

Yup. Physics is always against the lighter player. Benson, like Bedard, will need heavy wingers during 5 on 5 play. Jack Hughes needs beefy wingers. 

[chon derry]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Benson is likely gone before our pick. He’s the same size (as measured at the draft combine) as Bedard. And his runway to develop is long. So some clubs will see him as a potential #1 or #2 centre. 

He’s 5’8” on skates he’s 5’10”. We don’t need small forwards , scoring goals isn’t the issue here. Stopping them is. They’ve got a dearth of forward prospects that  when weighed up against whats not in the system defensively. Eg. the quality and quantity of forwards in the system is lopsided weighing heavily on forwards. Theres a lot of people that don’t see it that way. I’m not one of them.   

[Timråfan]

11 minutes ago, tas said:

making up stories in your head based on nothing is a symptom of psychopathy. 

Well, Benning is the only one here I see fits anything close to that.

He is the only one that save his face while being careless of others.

So learn a bit about psychopathy.

One of the warning signs is that they don’t excuse themselves if they done something bad. 
Benning might be more of a narcissist though…

 

[Alflives]

Just now, chon derry said:

He’s 5’8” on skates he’s 5’10”. We don’t need small forwards , scoring goals isn’t the issue here. Stopping them is. They’ve got a dearth of forward prospects that  when weighed up against whats not in the system defensively. Eg. the quality and quantity of forwards in the system is lopsided weighing heavily on forwards. Theres a lot of people that don’t see it that way. I’m not one of them.   

The draft combine measurements were posted earlier. Benson is exactly the same height as Bedard. He’s 5’9 and 3/4. He’s 173 and Bedard is 183, so 10 pounds lighter. Benson grew a couple inches this year. He’s likely still growing. That’s why he’s got such a long runway in front of him to develop more. He’s a later bloomer than a lot of his peers. But he’s still going to be small relative to the NHL guys. 

[chon derry]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Yup. Physics is always against the lighter player. Benson, like Bedard, will need heavy wingers during 5 on 5 play. Jack Hughes needs beefy wingers. 

That just answered the question to some degree of choosing benson then you having to go out and look for other players to shelter him ? I’m sorry but at point it starts making even less sense. Sure he may have evasive ability’s in the W. but the NHL isn’t the W.  so why take the chance? Go with what’s needed  a good fairly large mobile defencemen. NOT a smallish winger.  We already have  that. We don’t have the aforementioned 

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

1 hour ago, BC_Hawk said:

Boeser and Mikheyev are the real head scratchers. Had he not signed both, we’d be looking at 11.65m in open cap this offseason without having to complete costly buyouts. 

I agree. They definitely failed to find ways to address the cap situation, which was one of this management’s stated goals from day one. And their decision to continue to spend significant money on “luxury” acquisitions (like Mikheyev) was curious, given that this pattern of spending kept the team in perpetual “cap hell,” which is a very difficult spot to operate from, especially as pertains to leverage in any trade negotiations.

 

That all said, it’s still possible that they’d have determined it was the right move to buyout OEL even without any cap pressure. He’s on such an inefficient contract. By GAR-type player value, OEL has been “negative value” for three of his past five seasons. His best season in those five years, he returned an estimated (by Evolving Hockey’s metrics) $5M value on ice. His worst season in those five years was valued at -$3.6M. Over his two seasons in Vancouver, his net player value was $3.6M (on $14.5M salary). I think a charitable value projection (especially given age related decline) for OEL would be $2.25M average value on ice per season for the next 4 years, which would represent around $20M in “dead cap,” just by keeping him and paying him his salary. So it’s sort of a wash, whether he was kept here or bought out, as far as wasted money goes. But the buyout has the benefit of creating immediate savings in the short term (especially this coming season, where it’s really needed), spreading out the wasted money, and delaying some of that “dead cap” into later years, when the salary cap will be a lot higher, so the wasted money becomes a lower percentage of the total cap.

[DownUndaCanuck]

15 minutes ago, chon derry said:

At 64,years old and having played at a reasonably good  level of competition ,I can safely say, I never had to witness vegas and their  grizzled backend to know that’s what it takes. Hell  I knew that back in the early 70 s when the Habs proved it. To my point. Tell me that, that vegas  backend  couldn’t stand up a player like benson. And stop him in his tracks.  

I think there's two big points there. We can have small forwards and win in the playoffs if we surround them with big guys. Right now our top-6 consists of Mikheyev (pretty decent size and strength), Miller who's got a good frame and can play physically, PDG who is pretty solid, then Petey, Brock and Kuzmenko who are relatively non-physical. 

 

I agree in that a physical top-4 defence will just own a guy like Benson, but then look at what Pat Kane went and did. That being said, the Blackhawks weren't just a team of tiny Kanes - they had some real big guys on that team too. Hossa, Byfuglien, Sharp and Toews could all play a gritty style when need-be. Looking at Tampa, you could say the same about Point or Kucherov. Neither are tough guys, but their team is stacked with physicality.

 

If we take someone like Benson we have to back it up and build some size around him.

 

The flip side of your point is, look at the Vegas defence. Look at the Florida defence. Heck, look at the conference finalists, Carolina and Dallas' defence. Rock solid. Physically they could shut us down so easily.

 

Our defence right now consists of Hughes (as good as he is, he's no big shutdown defenceman), Hronek (just come off medical management of a shoulder injury, never was a big physical guy but pretty decent), Myers (getting older and slower and has never used his body physically, and when he does gets penalized) and...that's it. We don't have Burroughs or Bear under contract right now but I expect Burroughs to be re-signed and he adds some physicality but again he's only 6 foot and under 200lbs. How this team could use one or two Whitecloud/Gudas/Pesce-type players...

 

Maybe it all starts at the draft, we have an opportunity with Reinbacher or Simashev for sure...

[Ghostsof1915]

4 hours ago, D-Money said:

Pretty sure Calgary did exactly this with Michael Stone.

 

https://flamesnation.ca/news/amp/flames-re-sign-michael-stone-who-they-bought-out-last-month

My understanding was if you bought out a player, you were not allowed to sign him back for one year minimum? Did that change?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

 Over his two seasons in Vancouver, his net player value was $3.6M (on $14.5M salary). I think a charitable value projection (especially given age related decline) for OEL would be $2.25M average value on ice per season for the next 4 years, which would represent around $20M in “dead cap,” just by keeping him and paying him his salary. 

What was his value in 2021-22? 

 

That's the value that we should be comparing him to and seeing if it's worth it. 

 

He broke his foot in IIHF championships leading into next season. 

If Bear comes back in six months and struggles, are we gonna pretend that he's done and washed up or acknowledge the fact that he just had a shoulder surgery? 

 

I won't be shocked at all to see OEL sign with Boston and go on to win a cup. 

We locked in OEL's value at his absolute lowest. He had nowhere to go but up with a healthy summer. 

 

[Baratheon]

7 minutes ago, chon derry said:

That just answered the question to some degree of choosing benson then you having to go out and look for other players to shelter him ? I’m sorry but at point it starts making even less sense. Sure he may have evasive ability’s in the W. but the NHL isn’t the W.  so why take the chance? Go with what’s needed  a good fairly large mobile defencemen. NOT a smallish winger.  We already have  that. We don’t have the aforementioned 

I agree with what you’re saying to a degree but it’s not that black and white.  There’s always a few small guys out there making the rest of the league look foolish.  4 of the last 8 Conn Smythe winners were sub 6 feet just as an example.

Benson is not who I’m hoping for but I won’t be super bummed if it’s him.  Makes the future more complicated though.  Probably aren’t hanging on to Lekkerimaki and Hogz if they draft Benson.

[Provost]

Yes it frees up cap to get us out of a bind.  We shouldn’t forget that this management group is the one that put us into this bind.  OEL was a Benning mistake… but they kept compounding it.

 

If the management actually recognized that this isn’t a team a UFA signing or two from contending, it would have made significantly different moves since they came here.

 

1.  They could have traded Miller as late as last deadline and freed up $8 million this offseason

 

2.  They could have traded Kuzmenko for a boatload at the deadline.  A top like producing player at a million dollar cap hit?  That would have been good to a contender.  That frees up $5.5 million in cap this offseason.

 

3.  Don’t trade for Hronek, at least don’t do it until the offseason.  We weren’t making the playoffs, and giving up an unknown 1st round pick for a year of the player before having to sign him for market value still doesn’t make sense.  Do it July 2nd conditional with a reasonable extension number in place if you really think you need to. That is another $4.4 million in cap space.

 

Remove all those moves and the team has $18 million in cap space and several extra first round picks plus some high end prospects as returns on the trades.

 

$18 million buys you a whole lot this summer.

 

The team still needs major surgery, to do so you need a bunch of cap space.  You free up the space first and then rebuild.  Not the reverse and paint yourself into a corner.

 

[chon derry]

Just now, DownUndaCanuck said:

I think there's two big points there. We can have small forwards and win in the playoffs if we surround them with big guys. Right now our top-6 consists of Mikheyev (pretty decent size and strength), Miller who's got a good frame and can play physically, PDG who is pretty solid, then Petey, Brock and Kuzmenko who are relatively non-physical. 

 

I agree in that a physical top-4 defence will just own a guy like Benson, but then look at what Pat Kane went and did. That being said, the Blackhawks weren't just a team of tiny Kanes - they had some real big guys on that team too. Hossa, Byfuglien, Sharp and Toews could all play a gritty style when need-be. Looking at Tampa, you could say the same about Point or Kucherov. Neither are tough guys, but their team is stacked with physicality.

 

If we take someone like Benson we have to back it up and build some size around him.

 

The flip side of your point is, look at the Vegas defence. Look at the Florida defence. Heck, look at the conference finalists, Carolina and Dallas' defence. Rock solid. Physically they could shut us down so easily.

 

Our defence right now consists of Hughes (as good as he is, he's no big shutdown defenceman), Hronek (just come off medical management of a shoulder injury, never was a big physical guy but pretty decent), Myers (getting older and slower and has never used his body physically, and when he does gets penalized) and...that's it. We don't have Burroughs or Bear under contract right now but I expect Burroughs to be re-signed and he adds some physicality but again he's only 6 foot and under 200lbs. How this team could use one or two Whitecloud/Gudas/Pesce-type players...

 

Maybe it all starts at the draft, we have an opportunity with Reinbacher or Simashev for sure...

We should already have bigger aggressive players regardless of having to acquire  them to protect the smaller players that may or may not be picked this makes no sense. And I’d argue that its what tochett wants. If their going in the direction of going out side of positional need , then pick the larger winger. Why pick the smaller one and then have shelter him with larger players????? . The pick on his own whoever it is ,I would hope hes able stand on his own , not having to rely on anyone else’s presence  

[coryberg]

8 minutes ago, Ghostsof1915 said:

My understanding was if you bought out a player, you were not allowed to sign him back for one year minimum? Did that change?

I beleive that was for compliance buyouts.  

[Ghostsof1915]

1 minute ago, coryberg said:

I beleive that was for compliance buyouts.  

Thanks!

[coryberg]

2 hours ago, DrJockitch said:

It is early in the preseason but yeah it is very concerning that our D got smaller. 

[chon derry]

5 minutes ago, Baratheon said:

I agree with what you’re saying to a degree but it’s not that black and white.  There’s always a few small guys out there making the rest of the league look foolish.  4 of the last 8 Conn Smythe winners were sub 6 feet just as an example.

Benson is not who I’m hoping for but I won’t be super bummed if it’s him.  Makes the future more complicated though.  Probably aren’t hanging on to Lekkerimaki and Hogz if they draft Benson.

The key words being “ a few”. 

[Baratheon]

1 minute ago, chon derry said:

The key words being “ a few”. 

Meh.  That's just a math thing isn't it? Most players will be closer to average.  A few will be small and a few will be huge.  

[chon derry]

1 minute ago, Baratheon said:

Meh.  That's just a math thing isn't it? Most players will be closer to average.  A few will be small and a few will be huge.  

We’re at 11. If there’s option I’d take the larger less talented player over benson.  I mean the drop off at the mid round level , I mean how much are we talking here? .the  Talent should be fairly equivalent. Take the larger player. IMO. 

[Baratheon]

9 minutes ago, chon derry said:

We’re at 11. If there’s option I’d take the larger less talented player over benson.  I mean the drop off at the mid round level , I mean how much are we talking here? .the  Talent should be fairly equivalent. Take the larger player. IMO. 

Yeah.  As I said, I agree. (Unless Michkov falls lol)  I'm more just playing devils advocate.  With a small winger like Benson we have to know that he's an absolute lock.  Draft a larger C or D and there's a higher chance that they become an effective player for us even if they don't become a super star.  

 

Some of my favorite players have been of the tiny sort.  Kariya and Fleury come to mind. (Well Ronning too of course) St. Louis just after them.  It would be cool to have one of those guys is all I'm saying. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Baratheon

[chon derry]

1 minute ago, Baratheon said:

Yeah.  As I said, I agree. (Unless Michkov falls lol)  I'm more just playing devils advocate.  With a small winger like Benson we have to know that he's an absolute lock.  Draft a larger C or D and there's a higher chance that they become an effective player for us even if they don't become a super star.  

 

Some of favorite players have been of the tiny sort.  Kariya and Fleury come to mind. (Well Ronning too of course) St. Louis just after them.  It would be cool to have one of those guys is all I'm saying. 

I’m not saying it’s impossible. But chosing smaller players when larger ones avail. Makes no sense. I’m old enough to remember Stan Jonathan kickin the crap out of Pierre Bouchard , Bouchard yielding 6 or 7 inch’s to Jonathan. That’s rare ! But back to the “ few” post. The average nhl player IS 6’1”. So taking the chance on the smaller player is the bigger gamble weighed against the majority of bigger players.