[Signing] Canucks sign Carson Soucy

[wai_lai416]

3 minutes ago, aGENT said:

This is just it...we may have had better quality square pegs before, but we were cramming them in to round holes, with the expected results. Now we added a couple solid round pegs, and yes, we still need a long term, higher quality round peg to put in to the round hole beside Hughes....but this wasn't likely getting ALL done in one offseason. If we do manage to add Pesce, whether by trade, or UFA next summer....giddyup!

 

yup i think we need to do whatever it takes to get pesce here. i don't think he makes it to ufa next season as carolina already stated he'll be traded if he's not re-signed in the summer and likely already re-signed with the traded team. looking at the ufa market next season.. there's not really any D that sticks out that we can sign as a partner for hughes.. not everyday you'll see a top 4 RD available via trade.

[Gurn]

I take no side in this   Soucy versus Burroughs chat but I notice that those that disagree with Shiznak, are producing little evidence, other than "do you even watch the games?"

 

 

 

 

[Phil_314]

4 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

yup i think we need to do whatever it takes to get pesce here. i don't think he makes it to ufa next season as carolina already stated he'll be traded if he's not re-signed in the summer and likely already re-signed with the traded team. looking at the ufa market next season.. there's not really any D that sticks out that we can sign as a partner for hughes.. not everyday you'll see a top 4 RD available via trade.

Yeah, if he's available, not going to SJ (when they trade for EK65) and they don't get Tarasenko, I'd definitely offer Boeser and maybe even a young winger prospect for Pesce (with extension discussions before the trade).  Boeser's flirted with 30 goals before (in a 62 game campaign), so if his wrists are healthy he can definitely be that guy who can finish off plays from their playmakers, like Aho if he gets a chance with him.

[Jester13]

16 minutes ago, aGENT said:

This is just it...we may have had better quality square pegs before, but we were cramming them in to round holes, with the expected results. Now we added a couple solid round pegs, and yes, we still need a long term, higher quality round peg to put in to the round hole beside Hughes....but this wasn't likely getting ALL done in one offseason. If we do manage to add Pesce, whether by trade, or UFA next summer....giddyup!

 

Pesce, Reinhart, and Toews next year, please. Then I'd say we're contenders. 

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, wai_lai416 said:

yup i think we need to do whatever it takes to get pesce here. i don't think he makes it to ufa next season as carolina already stated he'll be traded if he's not re-signed in the summer and likely already re-signed with the traded team. looking at the ufa market next season.. there's not really any D that sticks out that we can sign as a partner for hughes.. not everyday you'll see a top 4 RD available via trade.

Could end up as a rental to a contender...but yes, trading him for him would be better.

[canuck73_3]

15 minutes ago, Gurn said:

I take no side in this   Soucy versus Burroughs chat but I notice that those that disagree with Shiznak, are producing little evidence, other than "do you even watch the games?"

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

I see Soucy stepping up physically, being in control, and very hard to play against. He provides positive value more often than not when he's on the ice and helps create offence. I see Burroughs try hard but he's always a step behind and has a lot of trouble making good hockey IQ plays. As a result we end up scored on or running around in our own end half of the game. Burroughs adds nothing offensively or towards tilting the ice in our favor.

 

Soucy has a far better understanding of time and space and what he himself is able to accomplish without doing too much. He understands his limitations, is confident, and he has over 250 games of experience to Burroughs 95. Burroughs looks like a kid in the candy store just happy to be out there playing. In addition, he probably got into 30 games this year simply due to us not having any other options.

 

It seemed to me Soucy took on a tonne more responsibility in Seattle, and Minny, and played in top 4 situations all the time, where as Burroughs was a guy forced into the line-up that played when there were no other options.

 

It seems blatantly obvious to me if you watch them play who I would choose. Not to take anything away from Burroughs. I love his attitude and compete. Soucy is just a far better, more well rounded player, with size. Again, stats are extremely limited and that's why they are no substitute for watching the games. This is a good example of that if indeed their stats are equal.

 

Edit: The biggest problem with stat watching is that for the most part they don't actually measure what people claim they do. For example sometimes letting the other team take control of the puck and reversing pressure is more advantageous than trying to waltz your way through the opposition and getting stripped as the last man back. Yet it gets recorded as a negative. Other times they call a shot on goal a high danger chance when in fact the player was tied up and had zero chance of scoring. Until they actually break down every play and analyze it on it's own merits the cumulative results we see now are overly simplistic and often not representative, and therefore pretty useless. NHL teams actually keep track of more detailed stuff like this and don't use the simple advanced stats we as fans have access to. As a fan who watches the games this is basically what we're doing by keeping our own more detailed, more meaningful statistical analysis.

 

https://thehockeynews.com/news/secret-formula-analytics-in-the-nhl

Yup, none whatsoever. 

[RakuRaku]

Zzzzzzzzz we are still talking about Soucy and can't make any more impactful acquisitions 

[wai_lai416]

22 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Could end up as a rental to a contender...but yes, trading him for him would be better.

i dont think he'll be traded to a contender it's going to be an up and coming team like buffalo ottawa etc contenders wont have the space for him prolly till TDL carolina already stated they are not going to enter the season with pesce still on the team with an expiring contract. smart play would be make moves now rather than react when other team starts making offer and be serious

[aGENT]

Just now, wai_lai416 said:

i dont think he'll be traded to a contender it's going to be an up and coming team like buffalo ottawa etc contenders wont have the space for him prolly till TDL carolina already stated they are not going to enter the season with pesce still on the team with an expiring contract. smart play would be make moves now rather than react when other team starts making offer and be serious

Yup....not counting on it though. League is TIGHT.

[wai_lai416]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Yup....not counting on it though. League is TIGHT.

if they can pull it off i'll give them an A+ for the off season so far after couple days of free agency it's still probably a B- for me coz they still unable to offload any cap or acquire a legit 3C. i'm not big on bledger as the 3c.. a guy that was regularly a healthy scratch

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, Gurn said:

I take no side in this   Soucy versus Burroughs chat but I notice that those that disagree with Shiznak, are producing little evidence, other than "do you even watch the games?"

 

 

 

 

Well yeah. It's kind of absurd people are struggling with watching players play hockey as the best way to evaluate them. What else is there? Listening? Innate knowledge? Stats? It's kind of hard to prove 100%, even with numbers, which is why a subjective, yet objective viewpoint is always needed. I don't think you could just run an algorithm and put together a team that way. On the other hand maybe we're just in for ChatGPGM in the future. Man that sure would be boring as hell lol.

 

How does one prove a hockey player is better than another? I don't know if people really have a statistical background but if they do the flaws in these types of advanced stats, and the way they are gathered is fairly obvious, and documented as well. I can't really prove it but my sincere belief based on my lifelong hockey judgment is that Soucy is far better for the Vancouver Canucks.

 

 

Case closed.  Haha.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[shiznak]

2 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

Well yeah. It's kind of absurd people are struggling with watching players play hockey as the best way to evaluate them. What else is there? Listening? Innate knowledge? Stats? It's kind of hard to prove 100%, even with numbers, which is why a subjective, yet objective viewpoint is always needed. I don't think you could just run an algorithm and put together a team that way. On the other hand maybe we're just in for ChatGPGM in the future. Man that sure would be boring as hell lol.

 

How does one prove a hockey player is better than another? I don't know if people really have a statistical background but if they do the flaws in these types of advanced stats, and the way they are gathered is fairly obvious, and documented as well. I can't really prove it but my sincere belief based on my lifelong hockey judgment is that Soucy is far better for the Vancouver Canucks.

 

 

Case closed.  Haha.

Not really when you’re using a chart from 2 years ago. 
 

Go read my post a few pages back, where Soucy’s analytics are from this year.
 

Spoiler alert. 

Spoiler

They are eerily similar.

 

[canuck73_3]

2 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Not really when you’re using a chart from 2 years ago. 
 

Go read my post a few pages back, where Soucy’s analytics are from this year.
 

Spoiler alert. 

  Reveal hidden contents

They are eerily similar.

 

Soucy>>>Burroughs and I honestly don’t get why you’re still on about this. 

[Sophomore Jinx]

3 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Soucy>>>Burroughs and I honestly don’t get why you’re still on about this. 

Yup. Not even close. Burrough's ceiling doesn't even reach Soucy's chin.

[canuck73_3]

3 minutes ago, Sophomore Jinx said:

Yup. Not even close. Burrough's ceiling doesn't even reach Soucy's chin.

The Canucks used 16 dmen and were garbage and he still couldn’t be an NHL regular, the Kraken finished 3rd in the division and Soucy played in all but 4 games. 
 

They’re not even remotely comparable. 

[Gawdzukes]

26 minutes ago, shiznak said:

Not really when you’re using a chart from 2 years ago. 
 

Go read my post a few pages back, where Soucy’s analytics are from this year.
 

Spoiler alert. 

  Hide contents

They are eerily similar.

 

That was my whole point with the laughing face at the end. Believe whatever you want though it's 100% your choice. I will let my eyes and hockey experience be the judge for myself. I can see the numbers are the same but they don't equate to my common sense so I'm not going to reach for a false conclusion. I simply don't believe those numbers are the be all end all to sizing up a player as much as you do. In fact they're worthless without context imho. The points I mentioned are the things that actually matter. Try putting together an all analytics team. I remember seeing one once and I think it was Thomas Steen who was considered the NHL's best player. 

 

As far as Burroughs goes, hopefully he breaks out this year and proves me somewhat wrong. He's got effort on his side. I really like the kid but I'm not at all confident he's going to take SJ by storm. I also think Soucy is the better player and 95% of hockey people would too. Anymore convo on the topic would be silly at this point. Let's see how it plays out.

 

  

21 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Soucy>>>Burroughs and I honestly don’t get why you’re still on about this. 

Dude just likes to argue lol

Edited July 5, 2023 by Gawdzukes

[shiznak]

5 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

That was my whole point with the laughing face at the end. Believe whatever you want though it's 100% your choice. I will let my eyes and hockey experience be the judge for myself. I can see the numbers are the same but they don't equate to my common sense so I'm not going to reach for a false conclusion. I simply don't believe those numbers are the be all end all to sizing up a player as much as you do. In fact they're worthless without context imho. The points I mentioned are the things that actually matter. Try putting together an all analytics team. I remember seeing one once and I think it was Thomas Steen who was considered the NHL's best player. 

 

As far as Burroughs goes, hopefully he breaks out this year and proves me somewhat wrong. He's got effort on his side. I really like the kid but I'm not at all confident he's going to take SJ by storm. I also think Soucy is the better player and 95% of hockey people would too. Anymore convo on the topic would be silly at this point. Let's see how it plays out.

 

  

Dude just likes to argue lol

I don’t like to argue, actually. We’re all adults here, and can have a civil conversation about hockey, without it being nasty. Hockey opinions differ from person to person. Just like everything else in life. You don’t have to agree on it. As long as it’s friendly banter.

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, Gurn said:

I take no side in this   Soucy versus Burroughs chat but I notice that those that disagree with Shiznak, are producing little evidence, other than "do you even watch the games?"

 

 

 

 

One way to look at it is WAR.   Not a big fan of this but it's something.   Another way to look at it is the contracts that both got.   One was paid like a solid 3rd pairing guy entering free agency for the first time, which he is, the other a little over the league min, but did get term as well.   The site that predicts contract value, is pretty decent barometer as well.   Soucy 2.6 x 3 ... a tiny raise in Seattle - no state tax bumps him to 3.   A slight overpayment maybe, but nothing to be worried about either.   That makes him a 5th guy, who in a pinch can move up.    In the past i've seen guys get overrated here, move on, and get contracts like Stetcher did in Detroit.   Than in ARI.   Career 6th defenseman.    Burroughs and Stetcher have a lot in common, both play their hearts out, and both aren't suitable top four guys, barely 6's but play their hearts out and easy to appreciate that as a fan.    Like Burroughs too.   But Soucy > for sure. 

 

As far as watching the two play, one stat that doesn't compare is quality of hits.   Wanted Soucy since the bubble,  when he was smashing our guys... Whitecloud and Manson back then too, was vocal trading for Manson for two years.  Glad we finally got a guy who's going to punish forwards for entering our zone.   Biega hit a lot too, but some hits just aren't the same.  Ohlunds and for awhile at the start of his career before he was injured, Edler was also hitting everything that moved.

 

   Nobody is talking about Biega  anymore.   I'm sure the same thing will happen with Burroughs.   It's an upgrade.    Soucy was the second most sought out D this free agency, and we got him.   It's a win too.   We didn't overpay given he's a free agent, and he's got potential given he's in his prime, to play in the top four, he's for sure not getting paid like one though.    Hopefully they can add another D, Soucy Myers would be a fun pairing to watch unleashed, and one stat is 6'5" 215  we needed size.    Stoked we got Soucy, started the campaign near the start of the season to get this guy, wasn't sure he'd be available.   Pretty confident he's going to be a fan favourite, we've needed a defensive defenseman with good size for awhile.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by IBatch

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, shiznak said:

I don’t like to argue, actually. We’re all adults here, and can have a civil conversation about hockey, without it being nasty. Hockey opinions differ from person to person. Just like everything else in life. You don’t have to agree on it. As long as it’s friendly banter.

Eloquently said. My hats off to you sir. I am contemplating your points.

[IBatch]

7 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

That was my whole point with the laughing face at the end. Believe whatever you want though it's 100% your choice. I will let my eyes and hockey experience be the judge for myself. I can see the numbers are the same but they don't equate to my common sense so I'm not going to reach for a false conclusion. I simply don't believe those numbers are the be all end all to sizing up a player as much as you do. In fact they're worthless without context imho. The points I mentioned are the things that actually matter. Try putting together an all analytics team. I remember seeing one once and I think it was Thomas Steen who was considered the NHL's best player. 

 

As far as Burroughs goes, hopefully he breaks out this year and proves me somewhat wrong. He's got effort on his side. I really like the kid but I'm not at all confident he's going to take SJ by storm. I also think Soucy is the better player and 95% of hockey people would too. Anymore convo on the topic would be silly at this point. Let's see how it plays out.

 

  

Dude just likes to argue lol

You are correct.  Early WAR days, figured out that Steen was the best hockey player in the league.   Better than Crosby, Bergeron, Ovi, whomever.    It's taken me a long time to get over the idea of even taking WAR a little seriously as a result.