grandmaster Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 13 hours ago, Kanukfanatic said: Edmonton is probably more shocked they picked pulji. Drafting is not an exact science. But some on here seem to think hindsight makes them smart. When u have every expert ranking Tkachuck over OJ, it kinda becomes an exact science. This was a stupid pick. Especially considering how soft the Canucks were at the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 12 hours ago, mpass1 said: Lol people still complaining that we didn't take Tkachuk? Lets only draft promising forwards then and never draft any defensemen, lets see how that one goes. LOL Actually it is smarter to draft forwards and sign UFA defencemen. It takes many years for defencemen to develop. By the time a defenceman is ready, you can avoid a lot of the wait by focussing your UFA signings to them and have your forwards develop from within. Most good defenceman make impact once they are at the UFA stage. Edited July 24, 2019 by grandmaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goal:thecup Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 24 minutes ago, grandmaster said: Actually it is smarter to draft forwards and sign UFA defencemen. It takes many years for defencemen to develop. By the time a defenceman is ready, you can avoid a lot of the wait by focussing your UFA signings to them and have your forwards develop from within. Most good defenceman make impact once they are at the UFA stage. You may be correct with this line of thinking. But dithering on about Tkachuk in the Olli Juolevi thread it at best tired. We did not want Tkachuk and still do not want Tkachuk; get over it. We're hoping Juolevi makes the team and does well; quit whining about a long past draft. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoasting Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I think he has one more year in ahl before he is a regular. Sometime before his injury last year Mckenzie from Tsn was saying that some canucks brass were concerned as OJ's progress hadn't stalled but had become very very slow. Then he got injured and haven't heard about it since. But usually where there is smoke there is fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanukfanatic Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, grandmaster said: When u have every expert ranking Tkachuck over OJ, it kinda becomes an exact science. This was a stupid pick. Especially considering how soft the Canucks were at the time. So in your opinion, Captain Hindsight, drafting NHL prospects is now an exact science?? ...that has got to be one of the most uninformed things anyone on here has ever typed!! Good one! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanuck94 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I get that everyone is split on what OJ will be, but knit-picking stats to prove a positive or negative bias doesn't mean anything. There's too many real life factors to be able to predict what OJ will be. Let's just let the kid develop and make his way to the NHL. Just like real life, everyone progresses at their own timeline. The only argument I would present to the negative bias side is that it cannot be argued that OJ still has a high ceiling, there's a reason he was drafted 5th overall. 6 hours ago, Honky Cat said: If you think that OJ has demonstrated he is worthy of 5th OA since being drafted..I would say that you are in a very, very small minority...He has tumbled off of the radar in the hockey world of top prospects that have not played in the NHL. He plateaued in his last year in junior ,and had 'up and down' seasons in Finland and Utica...The best training camp he had with the Canucks was his first one. Relative to those drafted around him (minus Puljujarvi), it's not a good look. He didn't plateau, the team lost 3 100 point scorers. His Finland season wasn't up and down, it was down and he developed into one of their top d men come playoff time. 5 hours ago, The 5th Line said: No it's pretty accurate. Why is it so hard for you to accept that a player likely isn't going to turn out to be as good as once thought? Are you just petrified of being wrong? Why put unearned expectations on a player? Just let it be and get over it. His progression stagnated, he has had injury problems, he's probably not going to be a superstar like you would expect from a 5th OA. It happens. Big deal I would argue that his progression hasn't stagnated, but that injuries have hindered his ability to perform at a 100% (I realize that is a form of being stagnant, but I'm speaking in terms of not naturally stagnating, rather he is getting better and will continue to as long as he's healthy). I also see him as becoming a #2-4 d man which isn't bad at all for a 5th overall (Yeah players around him have progressed well but speaking in terms of just focusing on the asset specifically). 1 hour ago, grandmaster said: When u have every expert ranking Tkachuck over OJ, it kinda becomes an exact science. This was a stupid pick. Especially considering how soft the Canucks were at the time. It wasn't a stupid pick, management rolled the dice and picked who they thought was the best d-man in the draft (OJ was consensus one of the best and ranked around the same area). In hindsight they shouldn't have picked by position, but they have learned and have gone BPA every draft since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said: So in your opinion, Captain Hindsight, drafting NHL prospects is now an exact science?? ...that has got to be one of the most uninformed things anyone on here has ever typed!! Good one! Just in this case. Go back and see how all the rankings were. Picking OJ over Tkachuck was a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanukfanatic Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 minute ago, grandmaster said: Just in this case. Go back and see how all the rankings were. Picking OJ over Tkachuck was a mistake. Yeah.....hindsight does that. I will spell that out for you. hind·sight noun understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, MrCanuck94 said: It wasn't a stupid pick, management rolled the dice and picked who they thought was the best d-man in the draft (OJ was consensus one of the best and ranked around the same area). In hindsight they shouldn't have picked by position, but they have learned and have gone BPA every draft since. Yes it was stupid. Like you say, drafting by position versus best player available. Everyone was saying Tkachuck was a much better player. Canucks couldn’t can’t afford to make these gambles. Given all the top 5 and 10 picks they’ve had, this team ought to have more young superstars at this point in time. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 but this particular pick was a gimme that they blew away. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandmaster Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Kanukfanatic said: Yeah.....hindsight does that. I will spell that out for you. hind·sight noun understanding of a situation or event only after it has happened or developed. Read the comment fully before you post. You’re acting ignorant. Edited July 24, 2019 by grandmaster 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Honky Cat Posted July 24, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 24, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, grandmaster said: Just in this case. Go back and see how all the rankings were. Picking OJ over Tkachuck was a mistake. Vilardi and Glass were generally ranked above Elias Pettersson...Does that make Pettersson a mistake. It was the same scouting team, using the same procedure, one pick is working out great..and one is not (currently)...At the time of the draft, it was not a mistake. Edited July 24, 2019 by Honky Cat 1 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honky Cat Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 25 minutes ago, MrCanuck94 said: I get that everyone is split on what OJ will be, but knit-picking stats to prove a positive or negative bias doesn't mean anything. There's too many real life factors to be able to predict what OJ will be. Let's just let the kid develop and make his way to the NHL. Just like real life, everyone progresses at their own timeline. The only argument I would present to the negative bias side is that it cannot be argued that OJ still has a high ceiling, there's a reason he was drafted 5th overall. He didn't plateau, the team lost 3 100 point scorers. His Finland season wasn't up and down, it was down and he developed into one of their top d men come playoff time. I would argue that his progression hasn't stagnated, but that injuries have hindered his ability to perform at a 100% (I realize that is a form of being stagnant, but I'm speaking in terms of not naturally stagnating, rather he is getting better and will continue to as long as he's healthy). I also see him as becoming a #2-4 d man which isn't bad at all for a 5th overall (Yeah players around him have progressed well but speaking in terms of just focusing on the asset specifically). It wasn't a stupid pick, management rolled the dice and picked who they thought was the best d-man in the draft (OJ was consensus one of the best and ranked around the same area). In hindsight they shouldn't have picked by position, but they have learned and have gone BPA every draft since. Fair post..Like everyone else,I would like OJ to succeed...However,I don't agree that he has tracked very well for a 5th OA,...I understand the Canucks for picking OJ over Tkachuk (although I do take exception to posters that say its a good thing we dont have Tkachuk ,otherwise we would have to pay him x million dollars) 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanuck94 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, grandmaster said: Yes it was stupid. Like you say, drafting by position versus best player available. Everyone was saying Tkachuck was a much better player. Canucks couldn’t can’t afford to make these gambles. Given all the top 5 and 10 picks they’ve had, this team ought to have more young superstars at this point in time. Yes, hindsight is 20/20 but this particular pick was a gimme that they blew away. Once again, it wasn't stupid, it was a risk. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. Would you rather have Glass over Pettersson right now? Of course not, but our management team took a risk with Pettersson and it's paying major dividends. Also, no, this team shouldn't "have" (in a guaranteed manner) more superstars because none of their picks have been guaranteed superstar picks (top 2). The chance of drafting a NHL player, let alone superstar player drops significantly after the top 3. The fact that we were able to draft 3 superstar caliber players with the 5th, 7th and 23rd picks shows how great our scouting team has been. Virtanen and McCann are both NHL caliber players and Juolevi is tracking to be one this season. Was there better options in hindsight? Of course. But that doesn't mean our drafting has been bad at all. Every team has their hits and misses in every round. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanuck94 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Honky Cat said: Fair post..Like everyone else,I would like OJ to succeed...However,I don't agree that he has tracked very well for a 5th OA,...I understand the Canucks for picking OJ over Tkachuk (although I do take exception to posters that say its a good thing we dont have Tkachuk ,otherwise we would have to pay him x million dollars) That's also a fair point, it would be great if he had already made the team. I haven't agreed with the negative tracking POV because I feel his injuries held him back and made him look bad (seeing how bad Karlsson's lingering injuries made him look gave me this POV), and now that he's healthy, I'm hoping he finally gets back to form and makes the NHL lineup by December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 12 hours ago, The 5th Line said: When you draft 5th overall yes you are in fact trying to draft a superstar. Obviously it's no guarantee I'm trying to temper expectations, you're saying Hughes and Juolevi are on even playing fields? It's not even remotely true so why bother saying it. You are hanging on to the fact that he was a 5th overall pick so you expect him to be as good as Hughes. You are a perfect example of what I am against oh...5th... I never said Oli is as good as Hughes...I said that given Oli has been injured or recovering for about a year total time since he was drafted....that they are starting this year on even playing fields and we will see who can push for that last spot on our D. Oli's injury was in fact keeping him from performing turns properly...particularly skating backwards....I expect him to be more mobile, maybe not by Sept. but by Nov. for sure. You are a perfect example of a 5th line player....in the minors.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 12 hours ago, Honky Cat said: Fair post..Like everyone else,I would like OJ to succeed...However,I don't agree that he has tracked very well for a 5th OA,...I understand the Canucks for picking OJ over Tkachuk (although I do take exception to posters that say its a good thing we dont have Tkachuk ,otherwise we would have to pay him x million dollars) what is it you are unhappy with? He had a very underrated season with a very depleted London team after being drafted. After a slow start to his first pro season, he ended up having one fo the best 20 year old dman seasons in Liiga and last year he scored at a .72 ppg pace, as a rookie. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpass1 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, stawns said: what is it you are unhappy with? He had a very underrated season with a very depleted London team after being drafted. After a slow start to his first pro season, he ended up having one fo the best 20 year old dman seasons in Liiga and last year he scored at a .72 ppg pace, as a rookie. His pace in the AHL would have been higher too, he kept on playing with his nagging injury (for like 1 or 2 games) and was playing on a terrible Utica team (no offense to our other prospects) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuckYa Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Rollieo Del Fuego said: I never said Oli is as good as Hughes...I said that given Oli has been injured or recovering for about a year total time since he was drafted....that they are starting this year on even playing fields and we will see who can push for that last spot on our D. Hughes is NOT fighting for the last spot on D. LMAO. He'll more likely will be fighting or even take a strangle hold on the #1 spot... As for Juolevi, he'll be fighting for the last spot here possibly come training camp? But most likely fighting for a top spot in Utica... Hardly on the same playing field, Most likely on different Ice Rinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stawns Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 12 minutes ago, CoolCanucklehead said: Hughes is NOT fighting for the last spot on D. LMAO. He'll more likely will be fighting or even take a strangle hold on the #1 spot... As for Juolevi, he'll be fighting for the last spot here possibly come training camp? But most likely fighting for a top spot in Utica... Hardly on the same playing field, Most likely on different Ice Rinks... While I agree QH probably has a more secure spot on the roster, a big part of that security comes because QH brings a missing element to the lineup that OJ doesn't. I don't see it as being "better" than OJ though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollieo Del Fuego Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, CoolCanucklehead said: Hughes is NOT fighting for the last spot on D. LMAO. He'll more likely will be fighting or even take a strangle hold on the #1 spot... As for Juolevi, he'll be fighting for the last spot here possibly come training camp? But most likely fighting for a top spot in Utica... Hardly on the same playing field, Most likely on different Ice Rinks... ...not what I said... i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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