Olli Juolevi | #48 | D

[tas]

13 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Battling for a roster spot and being in the NHL are completely different things. Not to mention that every players in the AHL is battling for a NHL roster. Just ask goldobin. Doesn’t make him any closer to being an NHL player.

 

His ELC is up at the end of next season, teams only invest so much time into a player before the expect results. Again ask goldobin. It will be his make or break, especially if he gets passed by another younger left shot defensemen. 
 

What are you basing that off of? His original draft position?  If Joulevi was still on his projected trajectory do you think he’d still get even a top 10 evaluation. A very simplistic outlook but from a high level is does show that he’s Is lagging on trajectory. 

 

based on juolevi's performance as a pro, despite his injury issues, and based on the sheer number of times jim benning's long game has made canucks nation doomsayers look like absolute morons already. 

 

I know where I'm putting my money. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

24 minutes ago, tas said:

 

based on juolevi's performance as a pro, despite his injury issues, and based on the sheer number of times jim benning's long game has made canucks nation doomsayers look like absolute morons already. 

 

I know where I'm putting my money. 

Thanks for really summarizing, in short you are crossing your fingers and hoping for the best but really don't haven't anything to justify your stance that Juolevi future to becoming a 2-4 isn't a major uphill battle....

[ForsbergTheGreat]

2 hours ago, Fred65 said:

I tend to believe that this is a must year for Juolevi. This saga has to come to an end at some stage. I understand all the hurdles he has had in front of him but at some stage the club can't giving him a pass, he has to show what they can expect from him in the future. This has been going on since 2016. Surely there has been some period during that 4 years when he has offered hope. Rathbones going to challenge him and to be honest Brisbois to. Sautner is right there. Olli you have to do it now

This is a really important year for him to make the next step but he's still got two years of waiver eligibility left.  As you pointed out, his competition for roster spots is only getting bigger and his window to make it is getting smaller.  That top 5 glow has a shelf life and I would agree that at the end of next season it will be make or break for him.  Canucks NEED to see NHL progress this next year or I'd fully expect for them to shop him for a player in a similar situation.  

 

Best case scenario is he has a strong camp next year and makes the roster as the 6-7 guy.  Not if, but when Edler gets hurt Oj's able to take on the extra opportunity and run with it.  But again that will depend on where the canucks view him and how he shows up.  If canucks sign another LHD and/or Brisebois outplays him in camp, it's another setback

[Provost]

I think Juolevi has a really good chance of being a sweetener on a deal this off-season.

 

i am not calling a for sure trade like I had guys like Madden and some others that came to pass... but it seems like Juolevi’s trade value is higher than the value of his remote chance of being a top 4D at this point.

 

On the left side we have Hughes for the foreseeable future, and I can only assume that Edler is going to keep signing 1-2 year deals until he can’t play.  We would be really well served by this and having him slowly reduce to a 3rd pairing role over the next 3-4 years on relatively cheap deals.  He doesn’t seem like he is going to fall off a cliff anytime soon and also that he is the type of guy that wouldn’t mind hanging on in a reduced role.

 

For the final two spots (assuming running 8D), I think Rathbone and Brisebois are ahead of Juolevi on the depth chart.  It puts him in really tough to earn minutes.

 

There are always cheap veterans at a reasonable price for bottom pairing roles.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2020 by Provost

[aGENT]

4 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Edler and Hughes are locking up the top 4 spots on the left side and Hughes is going to get the majority of the offensive zone/PP time and rightfully so.  That means Joulevi is trying to knock out Benn for the bottom pairing D. which is plausible.  But he's also competing directly against Brisebois, who realistically is more suited for that bottom paring role.  And that's if Canucks don't make any offseason signing.  If canucks do go out and sign another depth D like fantanberg, it will be a telling sign as to where canucks are on Juolevis development

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, Provost said:

On the left side we have Hughes for the foreseeable future, and I can only assume that Edler is going to keep signing 1-2 year deals until he can’t play.  

 

Not arguing any of the major points, and I agree, OJ needs to start making hay towards looking like an NHL player this next season. Even if it isn't this season/only spurts this season, he'll need to look like he can play here the year after.

 

While I could easily see a trade (say Virtanen + one of these guys for a right D), we also have lots of history of Hughes, Brisebois (and Tryamkin should he return the year after) playing the right side.

 

So, some of these guys can slide over to 'make space' on that left side.

 

Regardless, there's bound to be a lot of flux on our back end the next few years.

[tas]

45 minutes ago, Provost said:

I think Juolevi has a really good chance of being a sweetener on a deal this off-season.

 

i al not calling a for sure trade like I had guys like Madden and some others that can’t to pass... but it seems like Juolevi’s trade value is higher than the value of his remote chance of being a top 4D at this point.

 

On the left side we have Hughes for the foreseeable future, and I can only assume that Edler is going to keep signing 1-2 year deals until he can’t play.  We would be really well served by this and having him slowly reduce to a 3rd pairing role over the next 3-4 years on relatively cheap deals.  He doesn’t seem like he is going to fall off a cliff anytime soon and also that he is the type of guy that wouldn’t mind hanging on in a reduced role.

 

For the final two spots (assuming running 8D), I think Rathbone and Brisebois are ahead of Juolevi on the depth chart.  It puts him in really tough to earn minutes.

 

There are always cheap veterans at a reasonable price for bottom pairing roles.

 

 

 

haha remote chance of becoming top 4.

 

these are the same people who overnight went from screaming that virtanen was a bust to demanding that he receive top 6 icetime. 

 

why can't people here just chill and let things play out over time? juolevi is 22 years old for christ's sake. 

[RogersTowell]

It's definitely time for Juolevi to make his move - either in the playoffs this year or next season.  He's got solid potential that, probably due to injuries, he hasn't het achieved.  He's one of those rare prospects, a solid two way defenseman.  We have two good offensive D-men coming up in Rathbone and Rafferty that we can be really excited about as well as a couple of solid defensive guys Brisebois and that other guy who's name escapes me for a moment, but we don't have a lot of solid two way guys in the mold of Edler (and to a certain extent Myers).  I listened to the scrimmage on the radio yesterday and Juolevi sounded pretty solid out there, but of course you don't see much through radio.  

[ForsbergTheGreat]

11 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Not arguing any of the major points, and I agree, OJ needs to start making hay towards looking like an NHL player this next season. Even if it isn't this season/only spurts this season, he'll need to look like he can play here the year after.

 

While I could easily see a trade (say Virtanen + one of these guys for a right D), we also have lots of history of Hughes, Brisebois (and Tryamkin should he return the year after) playing the right side.

 

So, some of these guys can slide over to 'make space' on that left side.

 

Regardless, there's bound to be a lot of flux on our back end the next few years.

Obviously the names of Fabbro, Dobson, jumps to my mind, just can't see the them being moved. 

 

Do we resign tanev and role with Myers, Tanev, Edler Hughes for the next 3-4 years? I could see that happening but I could also see a bad playoffs/season next year forcing us to make bigger changes

[aGENT]

21 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Obviously the names of Fabbro, Dobson, jumps to my mind, just can't see the them being moved. 

 

Do we resign tanev and role with Myers, Tanev, Edler Hughes for the next 3-4 years? I could see that happening but I could also see a bad playoffs/season next year forcing us to make bigger changes

I think Dobson is in reach in the right package. Their window is open NOW. Especially if we took back one of Ladd/Boychuk (and sent appropriate $ back the other way to balance things out a bit).

 

Say Virtanen, Baer and Brisebois for Dobson and Ladd (+/-). Solves their lack of top/middle 6 F issue, gets Ladd of their books and replaces Dobson with a certainly lower ceiling but still capable D prospect.

 

F.A. would need to be ok having Erriksson and Ladd on the books though and that might be a hard sale  

[CanuckCup2022]

5 hours ago, RogersTowell said:

It's definitely time for Juolevi to make his move - either in the playoffs this year or next season.  He's got solid potential that, probably due to injuries, he hasn't het achieved.  He's one of those rare prospects, a solid two way defenseman.  We have two good offensive D-men coming up in Rathbone and Rafferty that we can be really excited about as well as a couple of solid defensive guys Brisebois and that other guy who's name escapes me for a moment, but we don't have a lot of solid two way guys in the mold of Edler (and to a certain extent Myers).  I listened to the scrimmage on the radio yesterday and Juolevi sounded pretty solid out there, but of course you don't see much through radio.  

One of his biggest weaknesses was getting beat wide by fast players. Does that still happen regularly? Some AHL fans say so.

[MrCanuck94]

12 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

he’s Definitely not a bust and your right, his draft position does effect expectations. But it’s fair to have those expectations because typically the higher a player is taken the more transferable his skillset is to the nhl. The more areas a player has to work on, the more risks there are involved in the player not working out. 

I think he’s just tryin to be developed to play in the NHL. Maybe they are hoping he becomes a edler replacement but I also don’t think they are going to wait too much longer for result. JB has shown he isn’t afraid to move on with a player or do bring in another option. 

 

Consider the roster for next year.  Edler and Hughes are locking up the top 4 spots on the left side and Hughes is going to get the majority of the offensive zone/PP time and rightfully so.  That means Joulevi is trying to knock out Benn for the bottom pairing D. which is plausible.  But he's also competing directly against Brisebois, who realistically is more suited for that bottom paring role.  And that's if Canucks don't make any offseason signing.  If canucks do go out and sign another depth D like fantanberg, it will be a telling sign as to where canucks are on Juolevis development

 

 

Yeah that's fair, his situation is hard to project and only time will tell. Let's hope for the best!

[Noble 6]

6 hours ago, aGENT said:

I think Dobson is in reach in the right package. Their window is open NOW. Especially if we took back one of Ladd/Boychuk (and sent appropriate $ back the other way to balance things out a bit).

 

Say Virtanen, Baer and Brisebois for Dobson and Ladd (+/-). Solves their lack of top/middle 6 F issue, gets Ladd of their books and replaces Dobson with a certainly lower ceiling but still capable D prospect.

 

F.A. would need to be ok having Erriksson and Ladd on the books though and that might be a hard sale  

 

I've tried to work out a trade with the Islanders since the start of the Boeser rumours since they have a young RHD prospect ready to make the jump (Dobson) and a proven RHD looking for a new contract (Pulock). Pulock would be harder to get, but his contract would offset some of the cap involved in the deal. The Islanders are in just as bad of a cap situation as us and that's the biggest hurdle in dealing with them. 

 

I don't see any way we can take back any of their contracts. Even without adding any new contracts we are already going to be very tight to the cap this upcoming season and probably over the cap for the season after. Trades will have to be made to move cap out, not bring in Ladd/Boychuk. Unless you think Boychuk can replace Tanev in the lineup, we absolutely cannot afford to take back on of those contracts and therefore dealing with the Islanders is pretty unlikely. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

I've tried to work out a trade with the Islanders since the start of the Boeser rumours since they have a young RHD prospect ready to make the jump (Dobson) and a proven RHD looking for a new contract (Pulock). Pulock would be harder to get, but his contract would offset some of the cap involved in the deal. The Islanders are in just as bad of a cap situation as us and that's the biggest hurdle in dealing with them. 

 

I don't see any way we can take back any of their contracts. Even without adding any new contracts we are already going to be very tight to the cap this upcoming season and probably over the cap for the season after. Trades will have to be made to move cap out, not bring in Ladd/Boychuk. Unless you think Boychuk can replace Tanev in the lineup, we absolutely cannot afford to take back on of those contracts and therefore dealing with the Islanders is pretty unlikely. 

As long as we send out at least as much as we take back, we'd be fine while also moving some other contracts out (which we already need to do, as we have too many bodies).

[Noble 6]

6 minutes ago, aGENT said:

As long as we send out at least as much as we take back, we'd be fine while also moving some other contracts out (which we already need to do, as we have too many bodies).

 

We'd be fine for the upcoming season, but we'd be pressed even tighter than we already are for the following season when Pettersson and Hughes need new deals. We won't be able to get rid of at the very least two of Eriksson, Beagle and Roussel for free and I think adding to that list would do more harm than good. 

[aGENT]

20 minutes ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

We'd be fine for the upcoming season, but we'd be pressed even tighter than we already are for the following season when Pettersson and Hughes need new deals. We won't be able to get rid of at the very least two of Eriksson, Beagle and Roussel for free and I think adding to that list would do more harm than good. 

We'd have zero problem moving Roussel. (Which I think happens this offseason personally as the cost to retain Toffoli).

 

We have loads of cap coming off year after next. Sutter and Edler alone will cover most of the Hughes/Petterson raises. Next year is our only real pinch point. And that's without moving out other bodies as prospects take over.

[Noble 6]

20 minutes ago, aGENT said:

We'd have zero problem moving Roussel. (Which I think happens this offseason personally as the cost to retain Toffoli).

 

We have loads of cap coming off year after next. Sutter and Edler alone will cover most of the Hughes/Petterson raises. Next year is our only real pinch point. And that's without moving out other bodies as prospects take over.

 

I'd like to hear more of your ideas with some specific placeholder numbers. Sutter expires this year and Edler has to be either brought back or replaced as a top-4 defenseman, and even then I doubt 10.375M would cover both Pettersson and Hughes, much less re-signing Toffoli and icing a defense that hopefully isn't AHL caliber. 

[Smashian Kassian]

Some pretty damning reports today on the VanCast from JPat & Drancer. I'm an OJ optimist but its hard to disagree.

 

He's not there yet & that's to be expected given the setbacks. I feel bad for him with the hopes/expectations placed on him. If he makes it in any capacity that's a success. He's still recovering and will take more time. The best thing is to stay injury free for a year, play consistently & keep the ball moving forward. I don't think you can count on him going forward but hopefully he figures it out as his offensive IQ is still there.

 

Don't think he's got much trade value at this point either, unfortunately. 

[Honky Cat]

10 hours ago, tas said:

 

haha remote chance of becoming top 4.

 

these are the same people who overnight went from screaming that virtanen was a bust to demanding that he receive top 6 icetime. 

 

why can't people here just chill and let things play out over time? juolevi is 22 years old for christ's sake. 

He’s only 20..He’s only 21..He’s only 22..?

 

Meanwhile.....?

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

I'd like to hear more of your ideas with some specific placeholder numbers. Sutter expires this year and Edler has to be either brought back or replaced as a top-4 defenseman, and even then I doubt 10.375M would cover both Pettersson and Hughes, much less re-signing Toffoli and icing a defense that hopefully isn't AHL caliber. 

The roster is not going to stay static the next couple years. We'll be moving out vets as kids arrive. Heck, well be moving some kids as other one's out play them. We'll be losing a player and their cap in the ED as well.

 

$10.375 plus their current cap hits is getting within a few mil (Pearson also expires, making that up).

 

Yes, Edler will likely need to re-sign (for less). We'll make room. I'm not worried.

Edited July 18, 2020 by aGENT

[Provost]

3 hours ago, aGENT said:

We'd have zero problem moving Roussel. (Which I think happens this offseason personally as the cost to retain Toffoli).

 

We have loads of cap coming off year after next. Sutter and Edler alone will cover most of the Hughes/Petterson raises. Next year is our only real pinch point. And that's without moving out other bodies as prospects take over.

Your math just doesn’t work out... next season AND the season after are huge pinch points for cap space.

 

You can’t just take Edler and Sutter’s salary and say they add up to the raises for Hughes and Petterson.

 

First off, they don’t.  Even on bridge deals you are likely looking at $6 million for Hughes and $7.5 for Petterson.  That is $11.5 million in raises.  You can’t count their current bonuses because we don’t have room for them under the cap now and they are going to get pushed... this year’s into next year and then next year’s into 2021-22.  That reduces our 2021-22 cap probably by $3.7 million or more depending on who else earns some bonus money... in addition to paying for their raises.

 

 You also have to replace Edler.  A top 4 is going to cost the same and we just don’t have a near equivalent replacement in the system.  Edler might sign a little cheaper and still give you top 4 minutes , but you can’t use math with just uses all his salary for raises.  Maybe as much as a $2 million reduction in his current salary.

 

So your post has to alter to...

 

Replace Sutter with en entry level kid for a savings of $3.5 million.  Reduce Edler’s salary by $2 million... for a grand total savings or $5.5 million after next season.

 

Then add minimum total raises for Hughes and Petterson of $11.5 million... and you are still in the hole by $6 million in YOUR example.

 

If you model out signings between now and then, we are hurting badly cap wise for at least two years... way worse than most teams who aren’t in that kind of crunch with all their young value players to sign and a bunch of bad value contracts in the way.  

Literally everyone coming off the books this year (aside from Domingue) is someone outperforming their current contract, and every one is them is due a raise.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Provost