A Fair Criticism of Jim Benning

[xereau]

 

[Josepho]

9 minutes ago, xereau said:

 

Who was there in the past is completely irrelevant, especially when all of those players were brought in through bad Benning transactions as well. Spending $500 on a hat might be smarter than spending $500 on a used toothbrush but neither are wise investments. Both of those instances are overpayments and I'd hardly consider Quinn Hughes some great managerial decision given that the NHL rewards bad teams with high draft picks.

 

Benning still to this day has literally never brought in a quality NHL defenceman for a fair price through pro-scouting.

Edited July 8, 2019 by Josepho

[ForsbergTheGreat]

6 hours ago, Dixon Ward said:

Not long ago everybody was praising NYR for their incredible rebuild.  They accumulated so many draft picks and were going to build through the draft. 

 

They then go out and commit 11.6 mil to Panarin, a winger.  They also traded younger assets for Trouba who will make over 8mil in my opinion.  So they commit almost $20 and give up a 1st and Pionk to add to a very weak roster.  

 

I have not heard 1 person question this or slam the gm or suggest that they are rushing the rebuild, which has been going on for less than 2 years.  Does anyone think that NYR are a Trouba and and Panarin away from the Cup?  They are now in a cap crunch with $10mil left and Trouba still to sign with only 11 forwards and 5 defenceman signed.

 

If Jim Benning did this, there would be death threats.  It is beyond me why Panarin wanted to sign there anyway.

I’ve already pointed this out in another thread but they are two different franchised in two completely different states of a rebuild. 

 

NYR started there rebuild in 2017 when they traded away key pieces to pick up a top 10 pick.  8 months later they confirmed there rebuild with a letter to the fans.  In the last 3 years NYR have 25 draft picks, 12 of those picks have been in the top 90 and they still have another 9 picks already stocked up for the 2020 draft.  The pick they traded away was going to be there 7th first round pick in the last 3 years.  For comparison, Canucks have made a TOTAL of 7 first round picks since JB has been hear.  NYR has been able to accumulate as many draft picks in 3 years than JB has been able to do in 6.   Yes that in large part had to do with the types of assets they had pre 2017 (Stepan, Miller, McDonagh, Nash, Grabner, Raanta).

 

So for them to trade away a few of their bucket of EXTRA picks, is not even remotely close to a comparable to what Canucks did.  Over the 4 years of their rebuild they will be averaging +1.5 draft picks per year.  

 

And then you have to consider the value of player NYR picked up with that trade.  They picked up a 25 year old, right shot D, that averages 23 minutes per night, who just finished putting up 50 points in the last 82 games.  If you compare that to Canucks Gudbranson trade well Canucks gave up similar value but spent it on a 25 year old, right shot D, who averaged 20 minutes per night and only had 43 career total points in 309 games.  Yes again different circumstances as Trouba hand picked the team he wanted to go to but trying to draw this back to Canucks, they values in players…again is not even remotely close to a comparable.

 

 

In terms of signings,  NYR just signed Panarin, a top 20 goal scoring in the NHL.  Star players get paid, and we will see that first hand when EP is up for a new contract.  But if you are really going to compare signings who would you

 

Trouba at 7/8 vs Myers at 6

Panarin, Fox at 12.5 vs LE, Sutter, Gagner at 13.5

 

In a span of 3 months Rangers added a top prospect in Fox, an elite talent in Kakko, a #1 winger and a legit #1 RHD defensemen.  If JB signed a #1 D and a #1 winger, while only giving up a 1st and a UFA signing, there would be praises in the streets.  Imagine this roster had we added Panarin and Trouba.   

[ilduce39]

41 minutes ago, Josepho said:

Who was there in the past is completely irrelevant, especially when all of those players were brought in through bad Benning transactions as well. Spending $500 on a hat might be smarter than spending $500 on a used toothbrush but neither are wise investments. Both of those instances are overpayments and I'd hardly consider Quinn Hughes some great managerial decision given that the NHL rewards bad teams with high draft picks.

 

Benning still to this day has literally never brought in a quality NHL defenceman for a fair price through pro-scouting.

That’s a pretty myopic lens, though, and ignores Benn who I haven’t seen anyone complain about.  Most of his acquisitions were of the bargain variety and forgive me if I’m a bit worn out listening to people whinge about Gudbranson.

 

”brought in on bad Benning transactions” Del Zotto was a free UFA who nabbed us a pick at the deadline (exactly what everyone whines about, right?) and Pouliot was a low risk, decent gamble.  

 

Only our colicky fan base can turn that we replaced that cap hit with better players into part of the fire Benning saga.

[Bubble Man]

56 minutes ago, Josepho said:

Who was there in the past is completely irrelevant, especially when all of those players were brought in through bad Benning transactions as well. Spending $500 on a hat might be smarter than spending $500 on a used toothbrush but neither are wise investments. Both of those instances are overpayments and I'd hardly consider Quinn Hughes some great managerial decision given that the NHL rewards bad teams with high draft picks.

 

Benning still to this day has literally never brought in a quality NHL defenceman for a fair price through pro-scouting.

I’m sorry, but if everyone gives Benning 100% credit for drafting then he gets 100% credit for the pro-scouting. It shouldn’t be called pro-scouting, it should be called Benning. Benning has never brought in a quality NHL defensemen for a fair price.

Just a warning,

you’re going to get a

“well, we didn’t have any assets”

How do you develop assets if you’re always trading away picks?

“But the players he got helped us now” help us what? Finish last?

“Injuries”  

 

You know what else I just can’t believe? His lack of due diligence. I remember hammer’s interview after the trade deadline when he said that Benning approached him like 2 days before the deadline for a list of teams. Like, really? 2 days? Did he really have no clue what Ben Hutton’s contract demands were until a few weeks ago? Even Edler’s. Shouldn’t these things be firgued out before the trade deadline so you don’t just let your guys walk? If DelZ was worth a pick how can Ben Hutton be worth nothing. Couldn’t get a 2026 7th rounder for granny? We let players go for nothing all the time. 

[Dixon Ward]

5 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

I’ve already pointed this out in another thread but they are two different franchised in two completely different states of a rebuild. 

 

NYR started there rebuild in 2017 when they traded away key pieces to pick up a top 10 pick.  8 months later they confirmed there rebuild with a letter to the fans.  In the last 3 years NYR have 25 draft picks, 12 of those picks have been in the top 90 and they still have another 9 picks already stocked up for the 2020 draft.  The pick they traded away was going to be there 7th first round pick in the last 3 years.  For comparison, Canucks have made a TOTAL of 7 first round picks since JB has been hear.  NYR has been able to accumulate as many draft picks in 3 years than JB has been able to do in 6.   Yes that in large part had to do with the types of assets they had pre 2017 (Stepan, Miller, McDonagh, Nash, Grabner, Raanta).

 

So for them to trade away a few of their bucket of EXTRA picks, is not even remotely close to a comparable to what Canucks did.  Over the 4 years of their rebuild they will be averaging +1.5 draft picks per year.  

 

And then you have to consider the value of player NYR picked up with that trade.  They picked up a 25 year old, right shot D, that averages 23 minutes per night, who just finished putting up 50 points in the last 82 games.  If you compare that to Canucks Gudbranson trade well Canucks gave up similar value but spent it on a 25 year old, right shot D, who averaged 20 minutes per night and only had 43 career total points in 309 games.  Yes again different circumstances as Trouba hand picked the team he wanted to go to but trying to draw this back to Canucks, they values in players…again is not even remotely close to a comparable.

 

 

In terms of signings,  NYR just signed Panarin, a top 20 goal scoring in the NHL.  Star players get paid, and we will see that first hand when EP is up for a new contract.  But if you are really going to compare signings who would you

 

Trouba at 7/8 vs Myers at 6

Panarin, Fox at 12.5 vs LE, Sutter, Gagner at 13.5

 

In a span of 3 months Rangers added a top prospect in Fox, an elite talent in Kakko, a #1 winger and a legit #1 RHD defensemen.  If JB signed a #1 D and a #1 winger, while only giving up a 1st and a UFA signing, there would be praises in the streets.  Imagine this roster had we added Panarin and Trouba.   

Lots of signings and trades and players don't work out, but you seem to really cherry pick with some of this stuff.

 

"Panarin, Fox at 12.5 vs LE, Sutter, Gagner at 13.5"  how are these comparable?  at this point Fox is nothing.  They thought Vesey was going to be great and he is mediocre.  

 

Sutter was signed 3 years ago at a reasonable price for what he was at the time imho, LE was signed 3 years ago and everybody thought he would be great with the twins(Ladd, Okposo, Lucic, etc.. also signed for too much term that year), Gagner was a gamble as there wasn't much to be had for 3.5 mil that could produce offence.  Benning was trying to fill giant holes left by Gillis.

 

I could say this "Staal, Shattenkirk, Smith at 16.6 vs. Miller, Meyers, Edler 17.25".

 

Fox was demanding where he wanted to play, they got lucky.  Kaako, luck. Panarin, overpaid.  Trouba has yet to prove he is a bonafide number #1, we'll see how he looks with that defence instead of the Winnipeg core.  He was another guy who whined until he got what he wanted, again a bit of luck. 

 

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, The 5th Line said:

@fakenews ahhh the deal hasn't had time to breath has it?  Well, I hope you say the same about the moves we have made.  I wouldn't want to see any hypocritical comments in the JT miller or Tyler Myers' thread.

Derp.  What are you on about?  Go find the  'hypocritical' posts in the JT MIller or Myers thread = and fill your boots - otherwise, you're just layering straw on straw.

'Er, there might just be hypocritical comments out there'....  that's weak.  Just quote something.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

20 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

Lots of signings and trades and players don't work out, but you seem to really cherry pick with some of this stuff.

 

"Panarin, Fox at 12.5 vs LE, Sutter, Gagner at 13.5"  how are these comparable?  at this point Fox is nothing.  They thought Vesey was going to be great and he is mediocre.  

 

Great. Use any of canucks signing and panarin and trouba are better. They are legit stars. Stars cost money. We spent money on middle pairings and middle 6 forwards. If canucks were able to land two super stars there would be praise not hate. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

Sutter was signed 3 years ago at a reasonable price for what he was at the time imho, LE was signed 3 years ago and everybody thought he would be great with the twins(Ladd, Okposo, Lucic, etc.. also signed for too much term that year), Gagner was a gamble as there wasn't much to be had for 3.5 mil that could produce offence.  Benning was trying to fill giant holes left by Gillis.

Haha ok. 

 

20 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

I could say this "Staal, Shattenkirk, Smith at 16.6 vs. Miller, Meyers, Edler 17.25".

 

Great. 

 

20 minutes ago, Dixon Ward said:

Fox was demanding where he wanted to play, they got lucky.  Kaako, luck. Panarin, overpaid.  Trouba has yet to prove he is a bonafide number #1, we'll see how he looks with that defence instead of the Winnipeg core.  He was another guy who whined until he got what he wanted, again a bit of luck. 

 

See Out of all that, that is what you pulled out of it...

 

 I didn’t once say NYR are better because of what they got. I even called out the circumstances that lead to them getting those players. What part of different franchises in two completely different states of a rebuild do you not understand. they aren’t even a close comparable to canucks and anyone who’s able to look at both teams starting points can easily see they started ahead thus are able to make big moves way at a way faster point in their rebuild than Vancouver. Call it luck, call it more tradable assets, call it good location, or what ever you want, they were able to turn things around at a much faster pace. That’s just facts. 

 

Now i know the insecurity of some posters will immediately take that as JB hate,  as you just did, (even though I said nothing negative about JB) but I’m just pointing out that comparing the two franchise rebuilds is apples and oranges. Which is why you hear no trashing and mostly positive comments about the moves they made this summer.  Most people are smart enough to see that. 

 

[Dixon Ward]

29 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Great. Use any of canucks signing and panarin and trouba are better. They are legit stars. Stars cost money. We spent money on middle pairings and middle 6 forwards. If canucks were able to land two super stars there would be praise not hate. 

 

 

Haha ok. 

 

 

Great. 

 

See Out of all that, that is what you pulled out of it...

 

 I didn’t once say NYR are better because of what they got. I even called out the circumstances that lead to them getting those players. What part of different franchises in two completely different states of a rebuild do you not understand. they aren’t even a close comparable to canucks and anyone who’s able to look at both teams starting points can easily see they started ahead thus are able to make big moves way at a way faster point in their rebuild than Vancouver. Call it luck, call it more tradable assets, call it good location, or what ever you want, they were able to turn things around at a much faster pace. That’s just facts. 

 

Now i know the insecurity of some posters will immediately take that as JB hate,  as you just did, (even though I said nothing negative about JB) but I’m just pointing out that comparing the two franchise rebuilds is apples and oranges. Which is why you hear no trashing and mostly positive comments about the moves they made this summer.  Most people are smart enough to see that. 

 

My insecurity makes me want to lash out at you, but my stupidity means I can't think of how.

[Bubble Man]

9 hours ago, oldnews said:

What ever happed to the anchorman avatar? Asking for a friend

[oldnews]

29 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

@fakenews ??? Youre telling me I can't say the Trouba deal was good for NYR because it hasn't had time to breath?

 

Yawn - no one told you what you 'couldn't say' - obviously you're free to say whatever you want. - you simply don't know - another matter entirely.

 

Otherwise, blah blah - I don't see you quoting anything - or  making a point worth responding to/engaging.

The poster you spun off on a tangent relative to was talking about the form - ie acquiring players like Panarin and Trouba when they're 'rethinging' - you're going off about whether Trouba was a good deal or not - irrelevent to the point they were making.  I actually disagreed with that poster, ironically - I think both of those deals make potential sense regardless of 'rethinging' or not.  You on the other hand spun off on a tangent that had nothing to do with his point.

Cheers.  (I imagine you're probably as bored as I am lol)

Edited July 9, 2019 by oldnews

[oldnews]

8 minutes ago, Bubble Man said:

What ever happed to the anchorman avatar? Asking for a friend

that was old news

[CanadianRugby]

7 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Which proves you are being hypocritical.  

 

Like what is going on here?  Are you trolling me?  

Don’t argue with a narcissist. When attacked, the natural instinct is to defend yourself and prove the narcissist wrong. But no matter how rational you are or how sound your argument, he or she is unlikely to hear you. And arguing the point may escalate the situation in a very unpleasant way. Don’t waste your breath.

[Alflives]

5 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Don’t argue with a narcissist. When attacked, the natural instinct is to defend yourself and prove the narcissist wrong. But no matter how rational you are or how sound your argument, he or she is unlikely to hear you. And arguing the point may escalate the situation in a very unpleasant way. Don’t waste your breath.

I love myself. I love myself. I see why I love myself. 

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Don’t argue with a narcissist. When attacked, the natural instinct is to defend yourself and prove the narcissist wrong. But no matter how rational you are or how sound your argument, he or she is unlikely to hear you. And arguing the point may escalate the situation in a very unpleasant way. Don’t waste your breath.

oh. the burn.!

[oldnews]

16 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I love myself. I love myself. I see why I love myself. 

 

 

Alf likes to mess with cats!  I don't advise that!

[Dr. Crossbar]

[189lb enforcers?]

7 hours ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Panarin, Fox at 12.5 vs LE, Sutter, Gagner at 13.5

 

In a span of 3 months Rangers added a top prospect in Fox, an elite talent in Kakko, a #1 winger and a legit #1 RHD defensemen. 

 

Imagine this roster had we added Panarin and Trouba.   

Don’t forget MT, instead of OJ. 

 

[IBatch]

6 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Don’t forget MT, instead of OJ. 

 

Or Horvat instead of Nitsch (how do u spell him again) when posters frequently whined and wanted to trade him because all he could do was win face offs when he came in.  (No I’m not saying this because maybe OJ will end up better then every other D in the draft or because he will make me forget that we passed on MT). 

 

Or JV instead of blank blank.  You crack me up sometimes as does this forum. 

 

( BTW BPA is smart safe and usually works out....glad he’s learning that and picked Podz this year and not the next best D even though we needed one). 

[IBatch]

20 hours ago, Bubble Man said:

I say nice stuff all the time. It’s not my fault people only focus on the negative. You just proved that by having no idea I’ve said positive things about the team. Lol, look at the MacEwan thread. Hell, scroll back on this one. Jim Benning has never added a core piece by trading or FA. He drafts his core. Anyone who says Jim Benning can’t draft a better player than Tyler Motte is discrediting him and his staff. 

I have not looked in that thread sorry.   But who focuses on the negative?  Nice try.  But I did read one of your posts after that looked actually not too bad, your assessment of the western conference teams and it really was pretty good.  So I gave your a heart.  Good job bubbles,  now I think I get it your handle, you think JB is Bubble Man.  Like a bubble team...just on the outside looking in.   Heck could be right, as in that’s where we are at in the rebuild.   The future looks brighter then that though, as long as he doesn’t or someone else doesn’t mess it up, in three years all the cap space comes back from the re-tool and gap/placeholder phase, just when Podz arrives, Tree is hopefully back and all the kids are starting or well into their second contracts.  That’s when this team could do some damage.  For now I agree mostly with your assessment there are a lot of ifs still for the team to make the playoffs and win a round or two.  Not that many to make the show but still some, decent health is one as the team proved the last year and even a little when the Sedins were here that they could play with anyone when healthy and win enough to be a top three team in our division.   Markstrom is also still an if as is Demko, but not a big one.

 

One things for sure prime UFAs like Panarin,  Stone, Duchene, Stamkos, Tavares etc will be much more interested in choosing Vancouver as a destination in three years then they do now and in the recent past (and many of them did anyways) not saying we should do that but at least it’s an option.  

 

Anyways thanks for letting me know I honestly had seen nothing but complaints and negativity and started to pick on you.  Look forward to seeing more like your western conference list.