Botchford: Do the Canucks want to be "true" cup contenders or do they simply want to make playoffs as soon as possible?

[KSniper88]

Kesler Burrows Edler should go, keep Tanev if possible.

[Vansicle]

I think whenever Botchford gets writers block which is probably often, he just steals ideas from CDC. At least 50% of us want a mini rebuild and are ok with trading an unhappy Kesler if the return is good. I agree with Botchford, every team that made the final 4 has a number 1 stud d-man. We need Pouliot from the Pens!

Because outside of CDC the idea that the Canucks' options are to retool or completely rebuild could not posdibly dawn on anyone.

The Canucks organization really ought to thank its lucky stars that the internet was invented so they can cherry pick all of the wildly original ideas that propogate on CDC.

[Watermelon]

To do list:

1- Get rid of Edler

2- Buy Out Booth

3-Trade Kelser only if the other team is overpaying

4-Sign a Stasny, Moulson type player

5-Get a d-man that can replace Ehrhoff

6-Resign depth playing like Santorelli

[etsen3]

So let's blow this "senior citizens" have no place (here/on a team) theory out of the water. #1 & 2 in current playoff points leader stats? Aged 29+ & 32.

3 of the top 5 in goals? Aged 32, 29 32 respectively.

Assists top 5 have: two 29 year old players and a 35 year old.

So what I see is that you have to have a mix of veteran leadership WITH the young guys you're trying to get an impact out of. Support staff for them.

When push comes to shove, even the "old guys" can get it done and are called upon to lead the way, as proven by the stats.

Be careful what you wish for. Once you lose the leaders on the team the young guys have to then fly on their own - some do but others won't.

This "age" thing is but another media angle that is generating steam. Detroit has over half their roster into their 30's/40's and yes, that seems to be winding down (somewhat). But Edmonton isn't guaranteed to win in a series over Detroit in accordance to their roster being younger. My money would rest on the Red Wings.

For a long term, overall gameplan sure, you have to eventually start replacing players with younger versions. But I believe it's a transitional thing, not an abrupt change where you revamp what has been a somewhat successful lineup and it's out with the old, in with the new.

With that, I have seen our guys slowdown but what can offset that deficit is an overall solid hockey IQ and sense of the game. Experience counts for something. Positioning and strategy. It makes for a more exciting game if guys are blowing the others off the line and skating circles around them. Hey, didn't Raymond do that (love him)? Many weren't satisfied then, either. So which one do we want here? Or does it change year to year based on players? Oh, I see - we want a fast player who is guaranteed to scare all the goalz. Hmm, doesn't every team?

Mas was a young(erish - 25 or so at the time), fast player and people called for his head. Why? - because young/fast is only part of it. So many things that are being assumed and taken for granted. A fast young player is no more guaranteed for success in this league than a proven aging (30+) veteran is.

That would be all well and good IF our older guys were actually getting results. It's been 4 seasons since 2011, and every single year our team has done worse than the year before. Every single year, our top 3 offensive players (Henrik/Daniel/Kesler) have had declining scoring rates.

I never said we should tank completely, but we need to make bigger changes and take risks if we want to reach the top. I want a top 5 team in the league, not a middle-of-the-pack team that has to rely purely on luck and timing to win the Cup every single year. Sure anything can happen in the playoffs, but a lot of stars would have to line up for us to go deep and that seems highly unlikely, as Botchford says. Therefore I am willing to sacrifice 5 years of probable first round exits and mediocre hockey for a quicker turnaround and an elite hockey team.

It's like money. We could spend $500 a year on lottery tickets, or we could invest $2000 a year and most likely wind up having more money at the end.

[aliboy]

To do list:

1- Get rid of Edler

2- Buy Out Booth

3-Trade Kelser only if the other team is overpaying

4-Sign a Stasny, Moulson type player

5-Get a d-man that can replace Ehrhoff

6-Resign depth playing like Santorelli

5-Or bring back Hoff.

[Otis]

Tanking isn't the way to go unless the team is terrible. You need to implement a system and bring in your young talent and help them. With Bo, Zack, Jensen, Shink, our 6th pick this year and whatever we get for kes I think that is a good start that you can build a system around.

[Honky Cat]

Canucks management want to be competitive this upcoming season and make the playoffs...However,I think that the Ryan Kesler trade request will take the 'cup contender/make the playoffs' question completely out of their hands....No Kesler,no playoffs..!

Obviously,with Kesler gone this season,our playoff hopes will realistically diminish...although,for the long haul,it will be the best thing...On top of that ,I don't see the value of TL and JB trying to talk Kesler into staying here.If a player is not 110% committed to being here,they should extract him.....I hold no ill will toward Kesler(hes's 30),he wants to win the cup,and it's not coming here...not in the next few years ,anyway.

[KSniper88]

The only way to be a true contender is to tank and get elite talent like toews/kane combo then your foundations are set, then you support them with good players. Canucks don't even have a strong core to just retool.

[Phil_314]

I'm glad the vast, vast, VAST majority of posters aren't NHL GM's (hello to the Armchair folks if you count yourselves in that regard) since people need to remember that rebuilds, whether intentional or not, could lead to two different kinds of results:

Oilers, Panthers, previously Blue Jackets <==================> Hawks, Kings, Avalanche (Lightning?)

Teams need to strike the delicate balance of keeping the right veterans to build around with the kids so the retool/build can speed up. Of course, it helps when teams like the Hawks (Toews, Kane), Kings/ Lightning (consistent stockpiling) and Av's (Duchene, Landeskog, Mackinnon) get foundational players ready to play right away, but mostly in the process it's moving some guys to bring back youth (prospects/ picks), doing signings and TRADES, WITHOUT gutting the team in one fell swoop.

I hope that GM Benning has the eye to pick out the right veteran core to keep around, since players in their early 30's can still do it in this new NHL (contrary to what Botch wrote-- Gaborik and Williams are 32 and 3rd and 4th in team P/O scoring; Stoll's 31 but still a valued PK man; Hossa's 35 and 4th on the team, Sharp's 32 and 8th, Keith's hit 30 and is 6th, while Oduya's 9th, Handzus has a G.W.G. , plus Richards (5th) and St. Louis (1st on NY), are above 35, and so are Briere, Gionta (11th and 12th but still scoring at nearly 0.5 p.p.g.), Plekanec (8th) and Markov (6th) on the Habs and they've all chipped in in this postseason), and without a doubt these players still have value. Having seen these, it's important to not discount the value of veteran players/ above-30's, since the Oilers would pay big time get their hands on guys like Keith/ Markov/ Hossa/ Plekanec/ Oduya/ Handzus to lead and work with their big guns, who are all young.

My point is, although it's important to infuse youth, the wily vet is still important as a contributor to the team's success, GIVEN that they have the skill to do their role at their age. Talent, whether in a veteran or young gun, trumps both age and youth.

With the right moves and negotiation work, this team can reload really quick, since most of the pieces we have on the team are at least functional, if not of substantial value as of now.

[Otis]

The only way to be a true contender is to tank and get elite talent like toews/kane combo then your foundations are set, then you support them with good players. Canucks don't even have a strong core to just retool.

No. Who's the only early pick on the kings? Doughty. Everyone else was mid-ish first round. You need to put players in a system to succeed. Players like Toews and Kane don't come around often. You can have as many first overall picks as you'd like but if you don't have the right system and culture in place it won't mean anything

[Absent Canuck]

One huge problem that gets overlooked is that many teams try this and just continue to suck. You have to get extremely lucky to draft a couple of players who turn out to be franchise level, and then surround them by some veteran journeymen who take a big jump in development with some extra minutes and responsibilities.

You guys talk like we just have to tank for 2-3 years and are then on our way to a Cup. Look at the teams who have drafted lottery picks or in the top 10 the last bunch of years.... they are still drafting lottery picks because they still suck. Most of your suggesting this course are too young to remember the decades of relative futility that our team went through and how depressing it was going to a game and knowing you were likely to lose. That is the sort of thing that loses you all those fancy corporate sponsors and luxury box sales... who wants to take a client to a depressing event where you are shellacked most of the time? You say "hey that is a good thing, leaves room for the individual fans!".... well no, that isn't how it works, when the team starts losing money they start trimming costs and payroll... and then you stop being a cap ceiling team who can work their way into contention.

Once you start missing the playoffs regularly, you suddenly can't get any UFA's to sign with you. You start having to WAY overpay your own young players when you re-sign them in order for them not to walk away. In a salary cap world you easily end up with an endless cycle of never getting out of the basement.

For all the talk about the Oilers being full of young dynamic talent, there isn't a single sign that they will be a playoff team anytime this decade. Their young players are overpaid, and there is every likelihood that the Oilers will still suck when those bloated long term contracts are done... and those players will flee to somewhere that they don't lose every night.

I guess looking at the Oilers blinded you to the Penguins, Blackhawks, Avs and Lightning.

Show me a fan who has sat here and watched the Canucks through the 70s up to now who wants a team that can just make the playoffs. You wont find one. We know how that story always ends. The Phoenix coyotes and Winnipeg Jets.

You enjoy making the playoffs hoping to 'upset' a team? Then draft 15th to 22 ? That is insanity to me.

As far as the Oilers go, mismanagement has cost them development. However, you cant keep talent like that down forever. They will sooner or later get their act together. By that time they will have a whole team full of 1st overall picks no doubt.

[KSniper88]

No. Who's the only early pick on the kings? Doughty. Everyone else was mid-ish first round. You need to put players in a system to succeed. Players like Toews and Kane don't come around often. You can have as many first overall picks as you'd like but if you don't have the right system and culture in place it won't mean anything

Well they got elite players in Richards/Carter by trading Schenn drafted 5th / Jack Johnson drafted 3rd overall to Philly and Columbus. Toews was drafted 3rd by Chicago. See you need top picks to get elite players or trade them for others.

See how when Richards / Carter Doughty came in to support Kopitar how things changed.

[Canuck Surfer]

Making the playoffs should never be a goal. In the Canucks' current plight, it should be viewed as a positive step in a team's ascendency. The Canucks could have made the playoffs this year, but from what I see, they would have been used to mop the floor. I see no benefit in that.

Such a selfish stupid thing to say. Also off base.

Lets ask the owners to forego tens of millions in play off revenue because some closet "fan's" think tanking is the route to become a contender. Lets ask the season ticket holders to pay full bottle but watch AHL calibre squads ala Buffalo, but stay on board until the good times roll around again. I suppose you would subsidize their anti-depressants?

The reality is we're not so strong a hockey market that people don't abandon their season tickets when the product sulks. It's already and suddenly a tough sell now, imagine in full bottle blowouts day by day? Its not just the play off revenue. I doubt that few if any of you calling for a tank actually buy any more than an occasional ticket.

That worked so well for us in the 70's and 80's for us as example one. As odd as it sounds, thank god for John McCaw who absorbed $50 mill plus losses in some years to get us to the point we could float again.

Look how well that worked in example two and three, when currency was not so high, for the old Nordiques and Jets? In example 4, look how well it works for Florida, who cant afford to pay for anything except a few ELC's and overpay some dorks that would rather sit on the beach in anonymity than be accountable to win any games.

Ah yes, the Nordiques who tanked just long enough they could convert top draft picks Owen Nolan, Matts Sundin, Eric Lindros (Forsburg), and Sakic into ultimate glory! The ultimate ticket to how many cups?

There are some absolute fracking geniuses on here!

[ScotianLifestyle]

Tanking... Such a bad idea.

[King Heffy]

Its an interesting debate thats for sure. I do think the problem with comparing us or anyone to detroit is that for the longest time they iced an insanely good team and could let players really blossom in the AHL. In the new NHL with the cap that almost isnt possible anymore unless you have crazy cap space and no albatross contracts.

And that's the real problem here. Gillis saddled us with multiple contracts that will cripple the team's chances to compete if they aren't dealt with:

• Edler is making 5 million dollars a year to be a complete liability out there.
• The Sedins will need to have a huge bounce-back season to avoid being massively overpaid. Daniel hasn't been the same since Keith delivered the cheapshot.
• Burrows is good, but overpaid given his likely production going forward
• We're still eating $800,000 of Luongo's contract. While this may seem small, it can be the difference between bringing in a quality 3rd liner and a guy making league min.

This is just too much bad salary to overcome over the short term.

[aliboy]

And that's the real problem here. Gillis saddled us with multiple contracts that will cripple the team's chances to compete if they aren't dealt with:

• Edler is making 5 million dollars a year to be a complete liability out there.
• The Sedins will need to have a huge bounce-back season to avoid being massively overpaid. Daniel hasn't been the same since Keith delivered the cheapshot.
• Burrows is good, but overpaid given his likely production going forward
• We're still eating $800,000 of Luongo's contract. While this may seem small, it can be the difference between bringing in a quality 3rd liner and a guy making league min.

This is just too much bad salary to overcome over the short term.

Bring back Hoff, who I beleive is available, and the bounce back year for the twins, and burr, and our pp is pretty much guaranteed, all with one move.

I would myself want to move Higgins, Hansen and Edler, so the NTC become an issue.

[Canuck Surfer]

Whoever thought that NYR would be in the finals? It's the playoffs...anything can happen

People should watch the games. The Rag's are for real.

A top line with Lucic and Horton, this year Lucic and Iginla is physically imposing. They might be better fighters, but in reality are no match for Stepan, Nash and Kreider, the Rangers top line. They are as big, and much faster. Its one of the most physically daunting lines in hockey. Even more so than Getzlaf and Perry. I'm not saying they are better than G & P or even that they punish with said size; I'm saying they are a near impossible physical match up.

Their 3rd and 4th line also has big physical guys like Dubinsky and Brassard. Who, like Torres and Malhotra for us, take on the lines like Lucic mano O' mano. So their coach can play Nash and Kreider whenever the match up suits him. Forget size. Emelin is one of Montreal's best defenders, but could not be allowed him on the ice against that line, because their speed absolutely exposed him. When the Habs did manage some shelter for Emelin, out popped the very slow (sarcasm) Marty St Louis who suddenly got 6 or 7 points in just a few games. And the lightning fast Dominic Moore who got the series winner. They can manipulate match ups at will.

And the relentless pressure they put up is inspiring to watch, similar to LA in fact. Guys as good as Crosby were smothered.

It will be a better finals than people expect! I would tip LA or Chicago, but only because they also have a great PMD.

edit: and for us to be competitive it may be just an issue of doing similar job of crafting physically competitive lines. Horvat and Gaunce within a year or two could play that third line stopper role. Horvat does not have to be the 2knd coming of god, Bergeron or Kesler to help us become a winning team. Just take on a role like Brassard which is a graspable goal. Richardson can be Dominic Moore. Hansen and Burrows are awesome checkers. Mathias is equally as fast and big as Kreider. Maybe he could grab an offensive role or Jensen instead? Hank can settle towards retirement in a role like Brad Richards. In 2 years imagine a top line of Dal Colle, Kesler and Kassian?

[asian player]

No. Who's the only early pick on the kings? Doughty. Everyone else was mid-ish first round. You need to put players in a system to succeed. Players like Toews and Kane don't come around often. You can have as many first overall picks as you'd like but if you don't have the right system and culture in place it won't mean anything

You're right, they don't come often. However, there will be about 10 of them in the 2015 draft. I can honestly say, the Canucks will regret not tanking for a top 10 pick next year, trying to compete next year only postpones our stanley cup parade even further. There will not be a draft like this in a while.

[BanTSN]

Linden picked Benning because he's a builder.

So let him build.

[Jack Fig]

Such a selfish stupid thing to say. Also off base.

Lets ask the owners to forego tens of millions in play off revenue because some closet "fan's" think tanking is the route to become a contender. Lets ask the season ticket holders to pay full bottle but watch AHL calibre squads ala Buffalo, but stay on board until the good times roll around again. I suppose you would subsidize their anti-depressants?

The reality is we're not so strong a hockey market that people don't abandon their season tickets when the product sulks. It's already and suddenly a tough sell now, imagine in full bottle blowouts day by day? Its not just the play off revenue. I doubt that few if any of you calling for a tank actually buy any more than an occasional ticket.

That worked so well for us in the 70's and 80's for us as example one. As odd as it sounds, thank god for John McCaw who absorbed $50 mill plus losses in some years to get us to the point we could float again.

Look how well that worked in example two and three, when currency was not so high, for the old Nordiques and Jets? In example 4, look how well it works for Florida, who cant afford to pay for anything except a few ELC's and overpay some dorks that would rather sit on the beach in anonymity than be accountable to win any games.

Ah yes, the Nordiques who tanked just long enough they could convert top draft picks Owen Nolan, Matts Sundin, Eric Lindros (Forsburg), and Sakic into ultimate glory! The ultimate ticket to how many cups?

There are some absolute fracking geniuses on here!

Selfish? In what way?

I look at this as a fan, because that's what I am...not an owner. But to tend to the issue of playoff revenue, an owner has the option to hire smart people who have patience and build with the big picture in mind and then make the playoffs every year and voila....playoff revenue. Have the foresight to hire the right people and let them do their job. Hire a dolt like Mike Gillis who has no concept of player development and you deserve what you get.

14 teams miss the playoffs every year, so there are lots of fans out there every year disappointed that their team didn't make the playoffs. The Canucks missed the playoffs this season...I'm still here, as are you. Spare me the overreaction.

Who said anything about tanking? You build. Take stock of what you have and go forward. Build your organization up to be strong year after year after year after year. The Canucks are not in a good spot right now, but I expect we will be a year from now. And even better a year after that. Again, put smart, diligent people in charge and you don't have to worry about being a lousy team. Keep your panic to yourself.

So playoffs are the real answer huh? After 9 seasons of missing the playoffs, the Leafs finally made them in 2013. Hallelujah! The Promised Land! Everybody exhale. But then they miss the playoffs again in 2014. Uh-oh. Now where are they? Do they rebuild after their one big year?

The playoffs are great if you are a good team and have the chance to make noise. That's worthwhile. That's exciting. If you only sneak in every second year as some kind of hanger-on, you're nowhere. But the playoffs as some kind of goal? Pointless. It's like wanting to be average. Like striving to be a C student.

Works for you? Great. I say no thanks. I have the patience to take some short-term pain for long-term gain. I've seen this before and with Linden and Benning, I'm fine to align behind them because I have confidence in them.

The playoffs are just a step along the way.