Botchford: Do the Canucks want to be "true" cup contenders or do they simply want to make playoffs as soon as possible?

[Boudrias]

First and foremost I'd like to say I'm a Canuck fan. Always have been and always will be.

However, I'm also a huge hockey fan - I watch a great number of games involving a great number of teams that neither don blue nor green.

Maybe it's that I've lost faith in our core, maybe it's that I watch too much non-Canuck hockey and I've become jaded, but substantial changes need to be made.

Re-tooling won't cut it. The teams that currently compete for the cup are simply far better than we are - not simply with their star players, but even their complementary casts. This is my opinion. And while I do agree that Botchford is often way off the mark and that much of what he writes is sensational dribble - there may be something to be said for this particular musing.

I agree. Van is a far way from the elite teams. That said there are still pieces that can be added that will make this a competitive team. IMHO the serious question to ask is whether the Twins can

recover their point production. They are great athletes and dedicated. Best case scenario is they do

come back to led this team as a 1A line for another 2 years. Expecting more defies physical challenges. A repeat of last year will see them either possibly retire or want a CUP shot with another org. The

biggest ? being Danny who's goal scoring has dropped since the elbow. Both are premium puck movers and

with the right line mates could enjoy extended careers. It would require them changing their game some

what.

Kesler has not had any 2nd line for 3 seasons now. Is that because he cannot compliment his line mates or the reverse. If the reverse it requires Benning to acquire 2 top 6 wingers this summer to have any

chance of a CUP run over the next 2 years. That would be a gamble that Van cannot afford IMHO. If the

Twins are locked in it means Kesler must go or the above gamble is made. Make the trade and gamble on the picks and prospects that come back. It spreads the risk and makes future deals possible.

I still consider the Van d-core CUP worthy. The shaky performance this past year could be reversed. That said a reliable puck mover (skater) would be nice. More defined roles are needed, particularly for Edler. If Edler cannot rebuild his game I expect a trade deadline move next spring. That is assuming that the incoming coach is given a chance to work with him. I blame Rick Bowness, fair or not, for

Edler's situation. IMHO Edler is a classic example of a talent that was rushed into the NHL without

enough of a defensive game to fall back on when his confidence was challenged. It appeared to me that

Bowness let him flounder.

[johngould21]

I agree. Van is a far way from the elite teams. That said there are still pieces that can be added that will make this a competitive team. IMHO the serious question to ask is whether the Twins can

recover their point production. They are great athletes and dedicated. Best case scenario is they do

come back to led this team as a 1A line for another 2 years. Expecting more defies physical challenges. A repeat of last year will see them either possibly retire or want a CUP shot with another org. The

biggest ? being Danny who's goal scoring has dropped since the elbow. Both are premium puck movers and

with the right line mates could enjoy extended careers. It would require them changing their game some

what.

Kesler has not had any 2nd line for 3 seasons now. Is that because he cannot compliment his line mates or the reverse. If the reverse it requires Benning to acquire 2 top 6 wingers this summer to have any

chance of a CUP run over the next 2 years. That would be a gamble that Van cannot afford IMHO. If the

Twins are locked in it means Kesler must go or the above gamble is made. Make the trade and gamble on the picks and prospects that come back. It spreads the risk and makes future deals possible.

I still consider the Van d-core CUP worthy. The shaky performance this past year could be reversed. That said a reliable puck mover (skater) would be nice. More defined roles are needed, particularly for Edler. If Edler cannot rebuild his game I expect a trade deadline move next spring. That is assuming that the incoming coach is given a chance to work with him. I blame Rick Bowness, fair or not, for

Edler's situation. IMHO Edler is a classic example of a talent that was rushed into the NHL without

enough of a defensive game to fall back on when his confidence was challenged. It appeared to me that

Bowness let him flounder.

Their right line mate was injured for basically all of the season this past year. The cluster **** of a coach is gone, and Daniel is probably more closer to being 100% healthy after that elbow. They are still two of the most talented players in this league, the new coaching staff has to figure out how to use them properly, and how to get a powerplay going.

[canucksnihilist]

if this team tanks for 5 years it moves to another city. support here (not on cdc, but "here") would drop and the team would lose money. leave, maybe seattle?

careful what you ask for! Linden gone, Benning gone, a revolving door of GMs (isn't that what we have already - almost? imagine if this team actually sucked...). Ownership has no patience, they want to make the playoffs.

sure, if the team tanks for 5 years we have a good chance of assembling another core - but that is no guarantee - as has been pointed out, and shown to be true. The way the canucks scouting has been, we would fail in an attempt to tank and rebuild...

So might as well keep the team here in van, try to make the playoffs each year, and go with more of a detroit/boston hybrid model rather than a tanking/get rich model!

[6YPE]

if this team tanks for 5 years it moves to another city. support here (not on cdc, but "here") would drop and the team would lose money. leave, maybe seattle?

careful what you ask for! Linden gone, Benning gone, a revolving door of GMs (isn't that what we have already - almost? imagine if this team actually sucked...). Ownership has no patience, they want to make the playoffs.

sure, if the team tanks for 5 years we have a good chance of assembling another core - but that is no guarantee - as has been pointed out, and shown to be true. The way the canucks scouting has been, we would fail in an attempt to tank and rebuild...

So might as well keep the team here in van, try to make the playoffs each year, and go with more of a detroit/boston hybrid model rather than a tanking/get rich model!

I said pretty much the exact same thing 2 pages ago...

[Provost]

I think they won it in 2000 as well. They definitely won 2 cups.

Yes...they did win it in 2001 as well, again prior to the salary cap era when you could build/buy a team differently

[Honky Cat]

Yeah righto...

Ditch the Sedin;s, Kesler and Edler, message of tanking philosophers. Your line up will have trouble playing Buffalo.

FTR the teams that want the Sedin's aint giving us picks that will score McDavid. Nor are they sending back battle hardened top line veterans.

Higgins / Mathias / Kassian

Burrows / Horvat / Jensen

Booth / Richardson / Hansen

Sestito / Lain / Gaunce

People would crave having Hodgson back...

I repeat: Genius!

Nowhere in my post did I advocate trading the Sedins..Where did that come from?...

[naslundfan921]

Everyone is saying LA is elite which in some respects is true but remember that they won their cup as an 8th seed and entered this year as 6th seed (sidenote Rangers also 5th seed this year). Point being that if a team that is considered an underdog (seedings wise) throughout the playoffs can go deep why can't this Canucks team (with some tweaks and young talent coming up) ?

If Benning and co make the right moves (easier to say harder to do) this offseason I see no reason why we can't be where the teams currently in/ on the cusp of the finals are at currently

[Hoosierdaddy]

Canucks need to go as young (and talented) as possible. Move literally any of the older players except Sedin's and Bieksa. They are true professionals and by all accounts tremendous role models and leaders. The 'new' core will develop a Canuck brand built on the style of hockey Linden and Benning want coupled with the character epitomized by Sedin/Sedin/Bieksa

[bluesman60]

Just simply making the playoffs is just simply not good enough nowadays. Any GM who just wants to make the playoffs versus having a plan to win the Cup, should get his walking papers.

I am in favor of a rebuild and the pain that goes with it to draft that high end talent that will put us into the true contender category instead of the team that made it but ran out of luck and fell short.

Failing that, you need a bigger 1st line and move the Sedins' to the 2nd line. maybe that wouuld appease Kesler,,,,1st line duty and a couple of top 6 wingers to play with.

[Warhippy]

People need to realize there is nothing that the Canucks can do short of gutting picks and prospects and basically all depth; to compete in the playoffs.

This is the conundrum, we have to many holes that need patching and patching them all means a decade of abject failure to follow barring a miracle.

Bite the bullet, one more year of mediocrity at worst and at best top 10 pick and ready to compete in 2015/2016

[Angry Goose]

First and foremost I'd like to say I'm a Canuck fan. Always have been and always will be.

However, I'm also a huge hockey fan - I watch a great number of games involving a great number of teams that neither don blue nor green.

Maybe it's that I've lost faith in our core, maybe it's that I watch too much non-Canuck hockey and I've become jaded, but substantial changes need to be made.

Re-tooling won't cut it. The teams that currently compete for the cup are simply far better than we are - not simply with their star players, but even their complementary casts. This is my opinion. And while I do agree that Botchford is often way off the mark and that much of what he writes is sensational dribble - there may be something to be said for this particular musing.

I agree. a re-tool isn't necessarily a bad idea as long as younger players are involved. Sort of like what SJ has been doing over the past few years. The goal should be to make the playoffs every year not just this year. As far as building a "stanley cup" team goes that just comes with luck.

[We Are All Cynics]

But.....anything can happen in the playoffs.

Anyone who makes the playoffs has a chance, few people could've predicted NYR vs MTL in the eastern final.

Making the playoffs doesn't equate to a 1 in 16 chance to win it. I suggest those who think that should do some research.

Since 1994 the seeded position that has won the Cup from either conference are:

Seed Cup

1 33.3%

2 27.8%

3 16.7%

4 11.1%

5 5.6%

6 0%

7 0%

8 5.6%

Link: http://www.sportingcharts.com/articles/nhl/what-do-nhl-playoff-seedings-means-for-stanley-cup-chances.aspx

[Gaudette Celly]

People need to realize there is nothing that the Canucks can do short of gutting picks and prospects and basically all depth; to compete in the playoffs.

Isn't that exactly what's been done the past 4-5 years?

[Warhippy]

Isn't that exactly what's been done the past 4-5 years?

No, only the last 2 really and look where we've gotten because of it.

No Schneider, No Luongo, No Hodgson, Kesler on the potential block, Edler so confused he looks like Phaneuf and people STILL under the belief that by patching a hole or two we can compete again without considering what that would do to the team in the long run.

Been a fan since the teams inception and I have watched this exact route taken at least once or twice a decade and we have exactly ZERO cups to show for it.

Really hoping Linden and Benning can break the cycle

[Absent Canuck]

You need to look into the details there my friend. The only two of those who won the Cup combined long stretches of futility COMBINED with an incredibly lucky break. If you think the best plan to win a Cup is to suck badly, and then hope for a 5-10% chance to win the draft lottery like they did AND happen to win it in a year when there is a true elite player to pick.... then you are really hoping a lot of things happen to fall into place.

Penguins - Got Crosby based on a one-off "special" lottery system that year due to the lockout shortened season. They had a 6% chance of getting the #1 pick and managed to get it. Change that system and/or lose that lottery... they don't win the Cup.

Blackhawks - Won the lottery and moved up the maximum 4 spots from their 5th pick to #1 to select Kane. They had about an 8% chance of getting that #1 pick. Without winning the lottery, they don't win the Cup

Avs - Haven't won the Cup in the salary cap era (won it in 1996), haven't had much success at all since then For some reason you consider them making the playoffs this year as success of the model? They have made the playoffs I think two times since 2004. Hardly a resounding success.

Lightning - Haven't won the Cup in the salary cap era (won it in 2004). When they did win it, they had top 10 picks in 11 of the 12 previous seasons... a record of futility that no one wants to match.

I dont 'need' to do anything my friend. Least of all read your hyperbole of spin to fit the narrative you want. Your hyperbole is irrelevant.

You either are tanking to get high end talent, building with that high end talent or contending.

You dont band aid an aging core that hasnt won a playoff round in years in an effort to go nowhere. Luongo is gone. Kesler will probably be gone. If you expect the team to contend at that point then there is no point in discussing it anymore.

[Absent Canuck]

People need to realize there is nothing that the Canucks can do short of gutting picks and prospects and basically all depth; to compete in the playoffs.

This is the conundrum, we have to many holes that need patching and patching them all means a decade of abject failure to follow barring a miracle.

Bite the bullet, one more year of mediocrity at worst and at best top 10 pick and ready to compete in 2015/2016

This year 6th overall or even better if Benning wheels and deals.

top 5 next year and maybe even top 5 after that. Every team needs to rebuild eventually. We have 1 year under our belt. Lets just get it over with. Move out the guys who have value and dont fit into the long term plans.

Keep the Sedins Bieksa and Burrows.

We can still cheer for the team. 29 miss the stanley cup every year. I am far more interested in our prospects at this point.

[Provost]

I dont 'need' to do anything my friend. Least of all read your hyperbole of spin to fit the narrative you want. Your hyperbole is irrelevant.

You either are tanking to get high end talent, building with that high end talent or contending.

You dont band aid an aging core that hasnt won a playoff round in years in an effort to go nowhere. Luongo is gone. Kesler will probably be gone. If you expect the team to contend at that point then there is no point in discussing it anymore.

Certainly no point in discussing it anymore, you have missed the broad strokes of the argument so getting into nuances isn't that constructive.

You believe that tanking for a long time and praying that we fluke out and win the lottery pick (5-10% chance like your Pittsburgh and Chicago idols) in the right year when a generational player is available is a great option.

I believe that being competitive year after year allows you to actually sign players and build a winning culture is what will eventually get you there.

The evidence suggests that my way has a better chance of being successful. Many teams who weren't considered "contenders" have had great playoffs success.

[Bruce Boudreau]

NO WAY THIS TEAM DOES A FULL REBUILD.

I think initially like Benning has said they will try to refresh this core and add to it and try to make it more rounded like the Sharks tried with Torres and Brown, Burish etc.

Problem is I don't the 3rd and 4th lines are the biggest problem. The team lacks a #1 dman as well as an offensive d-man who can carry the puck and qb the pp.

Not to mention the top six is 2 guys in the Sedins plus one in Kesler and then rotating guys on the wings who are not consistent enough to be top six players at this point of their careers.

Then if they end up faltering again in the playoffs, like the Sharks did this year, they can then justify major changes to the core and convince the Acquilini's that short term playoff money is not gonna be worth it long term and put every player who has a no trade clause aside.

If you look at the west pretty much every team is going to be better next year and are still in the middle of their prime or on the rise.

Chicago, L.A., St.Louis, Anaheim, Minnesota, Dallas, Colorado, those are 7 teams who will likely be back in the playoffs next year.

That leaves S.J and the Canucks and maybe say a team like the Jets fighting it out for the final spot just to get in again hypothetically.

It doesn't make much sense to try and make the playoffs. The delusional core on the Canucks still think this same team can win.

The Canucks just don't have the elite level offensive talent to compete with the best teams in the west and their speed and scoring.

The Canucks window is almost closed without a major trade to shakeup the stale core and the chemistry of the team to get some more youth, speed, energy and scoring.

They will try to do what SJ is trying/tried with Thornton and Marleau still having some years left like the Sedins but integrating young impact players like Hertl and Nieto along with a guy like Couture.

If the Canucks want to win now they will make a move to get a legit #1 goalie who has experience this summer.

If they want to develop and build for the future they will keep Lack as the starter and perhaps bring in a veteran at a reasonable contract back up to help him shoulder the load and be a sounding board.

To me what they do with the goalie situation will show what direction they want to go in truly because if a legit #1 veteran guy like Ryan Miller is to come here, he must be assured that they still believe in this core and want to win right now.

[Knucklehd]

Good question. Tough call. Seriously.

Chicago won 2 Cups and can win more within the next few years.

LA won one and is in the same boat as Chicago.

Canucks still don't have a Cup. If you were to tell me missing 6 straight playoffs can guarantee a Cup, I would have to seriously consider that.

For a guaranteed cup? I'd suffer through it, hands down, no question.

[Knucklehd]

Canucks management want to be competitive this upcoming season and make the playoffs...However,I think that the Ryan Kesler trade request will take the 'cup contender/make the playoffs' question completely out of their hands....No Kesler,no playoffs..!

Obviously,with Kesler gone this season,our playoff hopes will realistically diminish...although,for the long haul,it will be the best thing...On top of that ,I don't see the value of TL and JB trying to talk Kesler into staying here.If a player is not 110% committed to being here,they should extract him.....I hold no ill will toward Kesler(hes's 30),he wants to win the cup,and it's not coming here...not in the next few years ,anyway.

Even without kesler I feel we can make the playoffs, just need a coach I bring the best out of our players, not the worst as we just experienced