saucypass Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, Rob_Zepp said: Wow. He DID SCORE AT LOWER levels. Junior...right? He also scored at NHL level given minutes and linemates was at a reasonable clip for an 18 year old. He was NOT sent to AHL to score. There were no offensive expectations on him in AHL. He was not given that role nor given that to focus on. Why is that so hard to understand? There are a lot of lifer-AHLers who can put up a lot of points at that level but refuse to learn the game to allow them to take a next step. All accounts were that Jake did was asked and was making great strides. His shot count was decent and he was snake bit a few times but, again, he wasn't there to focus on scoring. Until you see him put in a position that is meant for him to provide opportunities and goals, a spot that may come as early as this next season at NHL level, hold the pessimism. Hey, calm down there bud. I'm just explaining why people might be down on Jake. He scored in junior but that was ages ago and he hasn't produced much since. Even in junior you could argue he didn't product as much as he could've. Yes he scored in the NHL, but not a whole lot, certainly not enough to project top 6 production. (Not to say he will never) I hope for the best for Jake and I think he'll do great, but maybe just not as a top 6 forward. Although I don't agree with all the pessismism, I don't think it's completely undeserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Wow. He DID SCORE AT LOWER levels. Junior...right? He also scored at NHL level given minutes and linemates was at a reasonable clip for an 18 year old. He was NOT sent to AHL to score. There were no offensive expectations on him in AHL. He was not given that role nor given that to focus on. Why is that so hard to understand? There are a lot of lifer-AHLers who can put up a lot of points at that level but refuse to learn the game to allow them to take a next step. All accounts were that Jake did was asked and was making great strides. His shot count was decent and he was snake bit a few times but, again, he wasn't there to focus on scoring. Until you see him put in a position that is meant for him to provide opportunities and goals, a spot that may come as early as this next season at NHL level, hold the pessimism. Jake seemed to think pretty highly of Green as well in some interviews, so that give me hope that we have a coach that can give Jake a plan that he can follow. Jake was also a good skater before he went down and i'm expecting him to be even better coming back up having leaned down a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, theminister said: There is also the truth that some players, counterintuitively, perform and produce better in the NHL than AHL. This is usually because of the drop in level in talent, linemates out of position, and poor reads. This causes a lot of broken plays and scrambled sequences. Will Virts be one of those guys? We don't know but it's certainly possible. Especially so if he was being coached to cover his D assignment as a first priority when a play broke, so he could firm up that aspect of his game. A jump to the NHL talent may result in mire and higher quality scoring chances, albeit for and against. I certainly wouldn't rule out 15 goals in 60 games next year. I hope you're right. Although that would mean he doesn't "own his line." Those players create offense no matter who they play with. I would personally be pretty happy with him being that complimentary piece with all things considered. Fast, hard hitting, and finishes off plays. Edited May 9, 2017 by suitup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 On May 5, 2017 at 9:59 AM, mll said: Bob McKenzie this mid-March on Virtanen. At about 45:45. https://soundcloud.com/tsn-hockey-bobcast/the-tsn-hockey-bobcast-episode-12#t=45:48 Bob is talking more about Jake being immature, vs. a lack of "IQ" per se. A big physical forecheck player doesn't need to be an intellectual artist and I think Green will be able to give him a plan he can follow to be successful. It seemed to me that Willie had the kid confused a lot of the time. Maybe he showed him Pronger vids. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 23 hours ago, TimberWolf said: It was a knock against him in his initial scouting reports. really? which one? i just remember stuff like this: A formidable adversary for any challenger, Jake Virtanen is an imposing power forward in the truest sense. Possesses a non-stopping motor and creates an abundance of on-ice energy when throwing his weight around and establishing his physical presence. Exhibits world-class skating ability, and can blow by defenders just as easily as he can go through them. Stands up for his teammates and never backs down from a challenge. Displays a wicked, NHL-level release that challenges goaltenders of all skill levels. Becoming a recognizable asset when playing a more defensive role as well. All-in-all, a physical power forward that has the character traits, work ethic, and individual skills to pose a threat to whoever stands in his way. (Curtis Joe, EP 2015) - See more at: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=120197#sthash.vJ8ZFOm1.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N4ZZY Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 On 5/7/2017 at 0:25 AM, BoesersFlow said: He didn't mention off ice workouts or how they are monitored, so I'm no help there. I got the impression that the weight they want him to show up at is conducive to where they want him for speed. That is the perfect spot for him. I mentioned how Bo got the crazy leg speed from season to season and he mentioned how he saw Bo ripped in the dressing room working out every day to get ready for next season. Nothing more came of that conversation. I got the feeling the Canucks see Jake as a 3rd line winger who can hit 40 points, 80 Pims and bang and crash + 2 way hockey, i seriously hope management has higher hopes than a middle six player draft in the top 10 of his draft year. top six player is what he should be projected to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Putgolzin Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 On 2017-05-06 at 8:08 PM, terrible.dee said: Also, I'm not a fan of this micro-managing an athletes weights, Igor Larionov's book has a great section in it where he talks about refusing to lift weights as the Soviet trainers wanted him to be stronger, he said (paraphrase) "I'm training for hockey not weightlifting, Why not train for what I'm actually doing on the ice and let my body find it's own ideal weight" I wonder if his buddy Krutov was working on that same set of assumptions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 42 minutes ago, suitup said: I hope you're right. Although that would mean he doesn't "own his line." Those players create offense no matter who they play with. I would personally be pretty happy with him being that complimentary piece with all things considered. Fast, hard hitting, and finishes off plays. Virtanen was always a largely complimentary player. Use his speed, hitting and shot to create space for his line mates and get the puck on net/go bang in rebounds. Ain't nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mll Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, S'all Good Man said: Bob is talking more about Jake being immature, vs. a lack of "IQ" per se. A big physical forecheck player doesn't need to be an intellectual artist and I think Green will be able to give him a plan he can follow to be successful. It seemed to me that Willie had the kid confused a lot of the time. Maybe he showed him Pronger vids. Green does believe that Virtanen should be in the NHL - no question. He just doesn't know if he is offensive enough to be a top-6 player. He's not at all worried about it because there are other ways than scoring for Virtanen to impact the game. He says that in some ways Virtanen is lucky because he doesn't have to be a 25 goal scorer to be effective. He can score 10 goals and be one of the most effective guys on the team - he gave the example of how Kassian impacted the series early on with his aggressive play. From the day he was introduced as head coach - at the 9:40 mark: https://soundcloud.com/sekeres-and-price/sekeres-price-april-26-hour-7#t=9:40 Edited May 9, 2017 by mll 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Just now, J.R. said: Virtanen was always a largely complimentary player. Use his speed, hitting and shot to create space for his line mates and get the puck on net/go bang in rebounds. Ain't nothing wrong with that. I think one of the issues is that 2014 was a year where Lucic and power forwards in general were highly coveted, (much like how smooth skating defenseman are now) and people thought that there was potential to be a game changer (albeit a small one). Really hope he ends up like Hansen. Ain't nothing wrong with that indeed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucypass Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) I know some people want/expect Jake to play for the Canucks next year, but why? Personally, I want to see him play a full year in the AHL and absolutely tear it apart. Sign an AHL star playmaking centers to mentor Jake and watch him blossom as a player. The year after we'll see a real nicely finished product. Although if he kills it at camp I'd be happy to see him on the main team too. Edited May 9, 2017 by suitup 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, suitup said: I know some people want/expect Jake to play for the Canucks next year, but why? Personally, I want to see him play a full year in the AHL and absolutely tear it apart. Sign an AHL star playmaking centers to mentor Jake and watch him blossom as a player. The year after we'll see a real nicely finished product. And Although if he kills it at camp I'd be happy to see him on the main team too. I'm a broken record that I'd prefer to keep him, Dahlen and Goldobin (as well as hopefully Zhukenov) in Utica for the majority of next year. They can rotate up for call ups with injuries and get called back up after the TDL and still see plenty of NHL time without the pressure of being on the opening roster. All while having far more practice and gym time in Utica and dominating offensively while building chemistry. Then go back down and try to win a Calder. Yes please. Edited May 9, 2017 by J.R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 21 minutes ago, mll said: Green does believe that Virtanen should be in the NHL - no question. He just doesn't know if he is offensive enough to be a top-6 player. He's not at all worried about it because there are other ways than scoring for Virtanen to impact the game. He says that in some ways Virtanen is lucky because he doesn't have to be a 25 goal scorer to be effective. He can score 10 goals and be one of the most effective guys on the team - he gave the example of how Kassian impacted the series early on with his aggressive play. From the day he was introduced as head coach - at the 9:40 mark: https://soundcloud.com/sekeres-and-price/sekeres-price-april-26-hour-7#t=9:40 We need Burr back as a coach yelling "crash da net" at him Jakes got decent hands, I think he'd pot more than 10 but we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancaster Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Low Ice Q just means what decision they make and whether or not the outcomes are mostly positive or negative. Someone like Mason Raymond would be someone who I would consider as low IQ. Choosing to hold onto the puck instead of passing to someone else, maybe just shooting towards the net when you're at a bad angle, without anyone screen, etc. Negative effect. Zack Kassian.... when choosing to stay on the ice when the rest of your linemates have changed. That means you get caught tired, out of positions, etc. Negative effect. High IQ would be like Burrows. He's not the most offensively gift player.... so he gives the puck to those who are (the Sedins). He knows they love to pass, so he just need to be in places where the pass will come from and shoot (a lot). Even Wellwood had what I considered a high IQ. I remember he was consistently cheating in the faceoff circle by kicking his foot in to block the other centreman's stick. Worst case scenario, they just redo the draw and he will learn how the other guy will be taking his draw or maybe he just get kicked out of the draw. Also in the STL series, he know of the tendency of his ex-teammate Carlo Colaiacovo when it comes to passing, so he just got into lane, picked off his pass and quickly pot it in the net. Pretty much.... know thy self, know thy enemy kinda thinking. Some are able to figure it out, some aren't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, The 5th Line said: Plenty of scouts knock his on ice IQ. No offence but if you can't tell that Jake's hockey IQ is an issue then you really just don't know what hockey IQ is or you just don't know how to evaluate it. And just because a player doesn't have a high IQ doesn't mean they can't become successful players During the draft Craig Button's scouting report had: Skating 5/5 Ice Q 3/5 Hands 4/5 Shot 5/5 Compete level 4/5 Player Comparison: Kyle Okposo Best asset: Acceleration OK... tell me how much IQ is needed to get the kid to forecheck? Lots of scouts had glowing reviews of him without raising "IQ". Personally I don't think he needs that much for what he's built for and Green will keep it simple for him. Willie had him looking like a lost fart out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancouver Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I see a lot of people comparing jake to tom wilson. If he ends up like Wilson I'll be thrilled, he's exactly what the canucks need. Size, grit, energy with some scoring touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSnipeshow91 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I still think he could be like kreider with a little less offense. Still a very lethal middle 6 winger that could do it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Barzal Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 The things I read here ... 'He wasn't sent to the AHL to score.' Even if he was plugged in a defensive role for the entire year there is some expectation for a 6th overall pick to score. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 19 minutes ago, Mathew Barzal said: The things I read here ... 'He wasn't sent to the AHL to score.' Even if he was plugged in a defensive role for the entire year there is some expectation for a 6th overall pick to score. He wasn't sent to the AHL to score, he was sent to lose weight. Luckily for us he lost more pounds than he scored points. Its always a promising sign when a player's Pounds/60 stat is higher than his Points/60 stat. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeneedLumme Posted May 10, 2017 Share Posted May 10, 2017 4 hours ago, nzan said: I wonder if his buddy Krutov was working on that same set of assumptions? I'm quite sure Bure wasn't. I remember how shocked everyone was at the strength he demonstrated in the bench press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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