Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[J-P]

1 hour ago, Law of Goalies said:

Is that even possible? Come on bro...please be realistic. Being a hater is one thing but it is better to be a realistic hater.

It is possible but in theory only. Real problem is that if he's qualified and goes to arbitration he will get a salary that's way too high and that the organization can't walk away from. If we could actually sign him for around 1.5 he's definitely tradeable and maybe even worth the headache a while longer.

[Law of Goalies]

1 hour ago, J-P said:

It is possible but in theory only. Real problem is that if he's qualified and goes to arbitration he will get a salary that's way too high and that the organization can't walk away from. If we could actually sign him for around 1.5 he's definitely tradeable and maybe even worth the headache a while longer.

I agree, I actually foresee the Canucks signing him to a max $2 mil contract since he can literally give a hometown discount and that I'm sure he wants to stay close to home.

 

But the previous poster was to not qualify him, and not go to arbitration and then sign him for under 1 million...

[dpn1]

JT Miller in his first experience with play-offs scored 1g 7a in 19 games.  Not that much different from Jake in his first experience in the play-off with 1g 1a in 13 games (not including the Minny series as this was a play in to the play-off series).  JT had 6 assists more than Jake in 19 games compared to Jake's 13 games.  I don't think we should trade Jake at the moment.  18g and 18a this season and has improved every year.  I think he will be signed to approx. 2.2 mil X 2 years (without protection in the expansion draft). 

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, dpn1 said:

JT Miller in his first experience with play-offs scored 1g 7a in 19 games.  Not that much different from Jake in his first experience in the play-off with 1g 1a in 13 games (not including the Minny series as this was a play in to the play-off series).  JT had 6 assists more than Jake in 19 games compared to Jake's 13 games.  I don't think we should trade Jake at the moment.  18g and 18a this season and has improved every year.  I think he will be signed to approx. 2.2 mil X 2 years (without protection in the expansion draft). 

Miller was also traded a couple times before he 'got it' though And likely needed those kicks in the arse to become the Miller we see before us.

 

Jake may very well still blossom in to a mature, consistent player. I'm just of the opinion that that's unlikely to be here (if it happens at all). 

 

He's not 'Canuck' material at this stage and is showing no signs of becoming so after 6 years. We have other guys who 'get it' and put in the effort on and off the ice, to play there.

[JM_]

55 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Miller was also traded a couple times before he 'got it' though And likely needed those kicks in the arse to become the Miller we see before us.

 

Jake may very well still blossom in to a mature, consistent player. I'm just of the opinion that that's unlikely to be here (if it happens at all). 

 

He's not 'Canuck' material at this stage and is showing no signs of becoming so after 6 years. We have other guys who 'get it' and put in the effort on and off the ice, to play there.

right now he's worth about 2-2.5 mil per year to us in actual performance. If he wants to accept that longterm I guess maybe... but then how motivated is he going to be? you knew it wasn't going to go well when he showed up fat again and Horvat felt the need to call him out publicly for acting stupid, in a contract year. 

 

He was sat to begin the playoffs. This was him at his best, one would assume, once he got back in. It was "OK". If we could use him as the cap dump with Loui with no salary retention I'd be fine with that now. 

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, Robert Long said:

right now he's worth about 2-2.5 mil per year to us in actual performance. If he wants to accept that longterm I guess maybe... but then how motivated is he going to be? you knew it wasn't going to go well when he showed up fat again and Horvat felt the need to call him out publicly for acting stupid, in a contract year. 

 

He was sat to begin the playoffs. This was him at his best, one would assume, once he got back in. It was "OK". If we could use him as the cap dump with Loui with no salary retention I'd be fine with that now. 

Yup.

 

I honestly think the organization is either out of, our damn close to, out of patience waiting for him to get it. You can only put so many resources, time, coaching etc in to a player that doesn't want to do their part. Particularly with other players steadily coming in both behind you (prospects), and ahead of you (adding Miller, Toffoli etc). If you're not going to put the work required in, your going to get squeezed out. Plain and simple.

 

They also seem to have a very firm idea of what makes for a championship calibre team. And that's character guys who will 'work harder than everybody else' to get any edge they can and be the best version of the player they can be. Jake has a lot of valuable tools and assets... But that's not him.

[Thirston]

12 hours ago, Law of Goalies said:

Is that even possible? Come on bro...please be realistic. Being a hater is one thing but it is better to be a realistic hater.

Ya lol, not even I would come with that. I don’t mind qualifying him at 1.4 for a year

[VegasCanuck]

12 hours ago, Provost said:

What possible motivation would he have to agree to this nonsense?  You are suggesting that he would elect arbitration if he didn’t like his qualifying offer but if we don’t qualify him, he would just take a near league minimum deal just to stay in Vancouver where he can barely stay in the lineup?  Are you high tonight?

 

If he doesn’t get qualified, he is immediately an UFA and will get a much better offer than you are suggesting from someone else.  We would also then lose out on getting any assets or cap dump in return.

I'm looking at this from the teams point of view. Right now, Virtanen really has no trade value, he has speed, but his commitment to hockey and to what it takes to play in the NHL, is being questioned by coaches and senior management.

 

If we qualify him, he has arbitration rights this year, which could land him a contract in the 2 million per season range, which I don't believe the team can afford.

 

Until Jake proves that he deserves to be in the NHL, I think he's realistically a 950k - 1 million player.

 

Yes, I understand that if he doesn't get qualified, that he becomes a UFA. My suggestion is, that he still wants to remain in Vancouver, and based on the fact that we are flat cap for the next couple of years, that to most teams in the league, he's about a 1 million risk until he shows that he is committed to doing what's necessary to stay in the game

 

That's my opinion. I'm not saying in any way, that this is what will happen, I'm just suggesting that it might be a good approach to managing him and our future cap exposure.

 

[VegasCanuck]

13 hours ago, WeneedLumme said:

18 goals and 36 points in 69 games, 1st on the team in game winning goals, 4th in hits and 4th in takeaways. All for $950K? Sounds great. If we can just pick up a few more players like that for that price, we have no more Cap problems. Any suggestions on who?

He scores when he's put in top 6, but he's not defensively reliable and other than 1 game, he disappeared in the playoffs, and he didn't exactly show up ready to play in the restart camp.

 

I think Benning views him as expendable at this point.

[Provost]

1 minute ago, VegasCanuck said:

I'm looking at this from the teams point of view. Right now, Virtanen really has no trade value, he has speed, but his commitment to hockey and to what it takes to play in the NHL, is being questioned by coaches and senior management.

 

If we qualify him, he has arbitration rights this year, which could land him a contract in the 2 million per season range, which I don't believe the team can afford.

 

Until Jake proves that he deserves to be in the NHL, I think he's realistically a 950k - 1 million player.

 

Yes, I understand that if he doesn't get qualified, that he becomes a UFA. My suggestion is, that he still wants to remain in Vancouver, and based on the fact that we are flat cap for the next couple of years, that to most teams in the league, he's about a 1 million risk until he shows that he is committed to doing what's necessary to stay in the game

 

That's my opinion. I'm not saying in any way, that this is what will happen, I'm just suggesting that it might be a good approach to managing him and our future cap exposure.

 

I don't think in any world of reality he has zero value.  He is a high 1st round pick with size, speed, and scored 18 goals last year.  There will be several teams who won't be as aware of his warts as we are, and/or just think they can get more out of him.  At "worst" trading him gets us out from under one of Sutter/Beagle/Baertschi's contract as a cap dump.  Maybe even something more than that.  

As above, if he is a UFA some teams will see value in him as a relatively cheap young player with top 6 upside.  Those players get more than a million dollars on the open market.  In arbitration he could command anywhere between $2-3 million... likely on the higher half of that range... as a UFA he gets that much for sure.  There is just no world that he wants to stay in Vancouver so badly that he gives up millions of dollars.  I don't even think that is much argument that he wants to stay in Vancouver at all.  He probably thinks the coach doesn't like or trust him, and his career isn't going anywhere.  His camp likely sees a fresh start as necessary as much as the team does.

[VegasCanuck]

13 hours ago, Law of Goalies said:

Is that even possible? Come on bro...please be realistic. Being a hater is one thing but it is better to be a realistic hater.

Not being a hater, I'm being realistic on where I think he is as a player. He has incredible potential, but unless he's committed to training when he's away from the team, he's never going to realize that. He showed up in camp at the start of the season as well as the restart camp, in less than great shape and until others got injured, he wasn't even ranking in the mind of our coach, ahead of Eriksson.

 

My suggestions are that at some point, you need to establish real consequences for players in your organization for how they are conducting themselves.

 

Nothing would make me happier than to see him really engage and become the player that he has the capability to be, but until he is able to show that he can be a factor, at least most nights, and show up in shape and ready to play, he's a million dollar, bottom 6 player.

 

He has the ability to make other players around him, better. Have seen him do it, but only in fleeting moments or the very occasional game.

[mll]

34 minutes ago, Thirston said:

Ya lol, not even I would come with that. I don’t mind qualifying him at 1.4 for a year

In his case his qualifying offer amount is pretty meaningless.  He's not going to accept it and is far more likely to file for arbitration once he is qualified.  He has a case to get 3M or more per Drance.  

 

In arbitration it is not allowed to use the league or the team's financial condition as an argument.  The Canucks can't argue that it's a pandemic with a drop in revenue and a flat cap.  Virtanen can present comparable contracts but those were signed when it was not a pandemic and the cap was expected to continue to rise.  That's why Friedman thinks that more RFAs than usual could go unqualified as teams don't want to risk arbitration and be forced to clear cap space late in the off-season.  

[VegasCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Provost said:

I don't think in any world of reality he has zero value.  He is a high 1st round pick with size, speed, and scored 18 goals last year.  There will be several teams who won't be as aware of his warts as we are, and/or just think they can get more out of him.  At "worst" trading him gets us out from under one of Sutter/Beagle/Baertschi's contract as a cap dump.  Maybe even something more than that.  

As above, if he is a UFA some teams will see value in him as a relatively cheap young player with top 6 upside.  Those players get more than a million dollars on the open market.  In arbitration he could command anywhere between $2-3 million... likely on the higher half of that range... as a UFA he gets that much for sure.  There is just no world that he wants to stay in Vancouver so badly that he gives up millions of dollars.  I don't even think that is much argument that he wants to stay in Vancouver at all.  He probably thinks the coach doesn't like or trust him, and his career isn't going anywhere.  His camp likely sees a fresh start as necessary as much as the team does.

I'm not sure that its specifically accurate that his coach doesn't like him, I think Green has gone out of his way in Utica as well as Vancouver, to try and turn him into a successful NHL player. In the last 3 months, he's been called out by his coach, his general manager and even the team captain for questionable play and decisions.

 

Again, would LOVE to see him prove me wrong, and I've suggested in other posts, that it may be in his best interest to move him and that part of the problem is that he may be too sheltered playing this close to home. He may need to be sent somewhere without the safety net of home to grow and mature.

 

When he's on his game, he's an exciting player who shows flashes of explosive upside.

 

My suggestions here are that, because he has arbitration rights, bundled with the fact that he has suspect training habits when he's away from the team for extended periods of time, make him a potential liability to another team in a trade and that until he's signed, he may actually be a less tradeable player than Baertschi or Sutter as there's the unknown factor of, "Will he file arbitration and potentially wind up with a 2.5 - 3 million award".

[Ballisticsports.]

I could see Jake being packaged with Brock 

If Brock goes, it will have to be something very good in return and not another forward or as a sweetener

[Thirston]

1 minute ago, mll said:

In his case his qualifying offer amount is pretty meaningless.  He's not going to accept it and is far more likely to file for arbitration once he is qualified.  He has a case to get 3M or more per Drance.  

 

In arbitration it is not allowed to use the league or the team's financial condition as an argument.  The Canucks can't argue that it's a pandemic with a drop in revenue and a flat cap.  Virtanen can present comparable contracts but those were signed when it was not a pandemic and the cap was expected to continue to rise.  That's why Friedman thinks that more RFAs than usual could go unqualified as teams don't want to risk arbitration and be forced to clear cap space late in the off-season.  

I’m pretty ignorant with this RFAs stuff. So if he’s qualified at 1.4 then can he file arbitration and Canucks are stuck with what an arbitrator comes up with? Or can they just walk away from it? 

[Nucker 67]

Benning was disappointed in Jake, from his playoff performance, or lack of.  He made that no secret. And then a day or so later he kind of built Jake up again, commenting on his strengths (he's got size and speed, etc). It almost seemed as if he were trying to promote a "Jake Sale". I think Benning is trying to make a deal to trade Sutter or Eriksson, and using Jake+ as the sweetener.

[VegasCanuck]

4 minutes ago, mll said:

In his case his qualifying offer amount is pretty meaningless.  He's not going to accept it and is far more likely to file for arbitration once he is qualified.  He has a case to get 3M or more per Drance.  

 

In arbitration it is not allowed to use the league or the team's financial condition as an argument.  The Canucks can't argue that it's a pandemic with a drop in revenue and a flat cap.  Virtanen can present comparable contracts but those were signed when it was not a pandemic and the cap was expected to continue to rise.  That's why Friedman thinks that more RFAs than usual could go unqualified as teams don't want to risk arbitration and be forced to clear cap space late in the off-season.  

This is my point exactly. Do you risk qualifying him and locking yourself into the process that could lead to a 2.5 - 3 million dollar contract, or do you choose to play hardball with him right now and call him out on whether he wants to be a part of this league at all.

 

[mll]

2 minutes ago, Thirston said:

I’m pretty ignorant with this RFAs stuff. So if he’s qualified at 1.4 then can he file arbitration and Canucks are stuck with what an arbitrator comes up with? Or can they just walk away from it? 

They can't walk away if the award is below a certain amount - it was about 4.4M last year.  Virtanen will likely come below the walk-away amount so the Canucks would have to keep the necessary cap space to sign him.  

[VegasCanuck]

4 minutes ago, mll said:

They can't walk away if the award is below a certain amount - it was about 4.4M last year.  Virtanen will likely come below the walk-away amount so the Canucks would have to keep the necessary cap space to sign him.  

This exactly! Who here thinks that Virtanen is currently worth anywhere near what his arbitration award could be.

 

A few years ago, can't remember the name of the player specifically, but we refused to qualify a defenseman and then signed him before July 1st at a lower number than the previous contract, also avoiding arbitration. It can be done.

[mll]

16 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

This is my point exactly. Do you risk qualifying him and locking yourself into the process that could lead to a 2.5 - 3 million dollar contract, or do you choose to play hardball with him right now and call him out on whether he wants to be a part of this league at all.

 

Virtanen should be able to find a contract as UFA.  If he takes a paycut he has no guarantee that he won't be traded as it's not possible to have trade clauses on RFA years.