Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[WeneedLumme]

51 minutes ago, VegasCanuck said:

He scores when he's put in top 6, but he's not defensively reliable and other than 1 game, he disappeared in the playoffs, and he didn't exactly show up ready to play in the restart camp.

 

I think Benning views him as expendable at this point.

None of what you say adds up to a $950k contract, which is absolutely ludicrous. You can and obviously will, believe whatever you want, but choosing to believe (based on nothing but projection) that you know what JB is thinking is equally silly.

 

IMO, based on decades of negotiating experience, I think JB's comments about Jake were intended to increase his negotiating leverage, to get Jake signed to a more affordable contract. But no reasonable person is expecting it to be for $950k.

Edited September 14, 2020 by WeneedLumme

[VegasCanuck]

1 minute ago, WeneedLumme said:

None of what you say adds up to a $950k contract, which is absolutely ludicrous. You can and obviously will, believe whatever you want, but choosing to believe (based on nothing but projection) that you know what JB is thinking is equally silly.

 

IMO, based on decades of negotiating experience, I think JB's comments about Jake were intended to increase his negotiating leverage, to get Jake signed to a more affordable contract.

You are correct that this is my opinion, but its not without precedence. Anaheim refused to qualify Brandon Pirri a few years ago because, even though he showed a lot of upside, he had too many overall holes in his game and training.

 

I think we need to look at this from a flat cap basis. Its not just the Canucks who are in a cap crunch, its EVERY team. I think you're going to see a record number of teams in the NHL refuse to spend to the Cap this next season. That means that there are going to be a LOT more players flooding the market and looking for contracts. Players who are showing questionable training and commitments to conditioning, are going to be valued lower than guys who commit to show up fully ready to play and are willing to play meaningful games in all zones of the ice. 

 

I think that a lot of fans are still thinking in terms of what signing conditions were like last season, as opposed to the condition of the NHL where they are suddenly dropping more than 1 billion in revenue, just in completing this current season. Revenue for 2020/21 season are likely to be down 40% or more from normal levels. This means, owners are ALL taking massive losses for at least the next season, probably the next 2 seasons. Its likely that the next season will be played without fans in the buildings.

 

If you're an owner, are you willing to potentially over pay for someone you're not 100% sure of or are you cutting your losses on more players, knowing that there's going to be a LOT of them, looking for jobs?

 

[Thirston]

5 hours ago, mll said:

They can't walk away if the award is below a certain amount - it was about 4.4M last year.  Virtanen will likely come below the walk-away amount so the Canucks would have to keep the necessary cap space to sign him.  

So for example if he’s awarded 3mil by an arbitrator can the Canucks give him only a one year contract or how does that work?  I hate Virtanen now, used to have high hopes but hopefully he’s gone. Maybe a Boston team or something like that could get something out of him, get Chara to talk to him lol. 

[Squamfan]

12 minutes ago, Thirston said:

So for example if he’s awarded 3mil by an arbitrator can the Canucks give him only a one year contract or how does that work?  I hate Virtanen now, used to have high hopes but hopefully he’s gone. Maybe a Boston team or something like that could get something out of him, get Chara to talk to him lol. 

canucks can not qualify him and give him a offer.

[Junkyard Dog]

40 minutes ago, Squamfan said:

canucks can not qualify him and give him a offer.

That's a rule? If you let RFA's go to FA and become UFA's you're not able to re-sign them in FA?

[mll]

1 hour ago, Thirston said:

So for example if he’s awarded 3mil by an arbitrator can the Canucks give him only a one year contract or how does that work?  I hate Virtanen now, used to have high hopes but hopefully he’s gone. Maybe a Boston team or something like that could get something out of him, get Chara to talk to him lol. 

If a player files the team can decide on a 1-year or 2-year ruling.  The ruling can't cover UFA years so for a player that is 1 year to UFA it can only be a 1-year contract.  Virtanen is 2 years to UFA.  

 

The arbitrator will decide on the salary for the 1 year or the two-year contract.  The terms can't be changed.  If the arbitrator rules it's 3M for 1 year, that's the contract that will have to be signed.  The team can't walk away because it's less than the walk-away limit (was around 4.4M last year).  There's a 48 hour buyout window that opens up in case the team wants to clear cap space.  They can only buyout players that were on the roster at the TDL and who earn more than a certain amount for this 2nd window (was about 3.5M last year).  

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by mll

[mll]

15 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

That's a rule? If you let RFA's go to FA and become UFA's you're not able to re-sign them in FA?

He can still be signed in free agency.  He can test the market and decide that he prefers the Canucks' offer.  

 

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, mll said:

He can still be signed in free agency.  He can test the market and decide that he prefers the Canucks' offer.  

 

So, if it comes to that, whether or not he will want to stay will be determined if he wants to stay home at a cheap deal or if he wants a bigger payday. 

 

I could see Stecher coming back cheaper more so in this sort of scenario but IDK about Virtanen.

 

Still a risk to lose RFAs for nothing but we will have to see what the trade market is for these sort of guys. Perhaps it may come to us having to not qualify Stecher/Virtanen.

[Law of Goalies]

3 hours ago, mll said:

He can still be signed in free agency.  He can test the market and decide that he prefers the Canucks' offer.  

 

But no one would consider 950K for Virtanen to be justified (i am not quoting you because you said this, it is because you clarified about the RFA/UFA situation). Taking a hometown discount means keeping your current salary and not getting the raise that you should be getting. FOr VegasCanuck, please let us know which player in the league gets approximately 40 points and is not on an ELC? Please enlighten us!

[N4ZZY]

Ugh. 

 

Can't afford to lose Virtanen for nothing. Worse case scenario for the Canucks, in my books. 

 

Would rather package him in a deal to off-load a bad contract. 

 

I'd like to see him retained at a cheaper deal, a bridge deal perhaps, but I'm not sure if Jake's camp will take that. 

 

What a complicated mess. He did score 18 goals, so if he goes, who's going to replace those goal production? 

 

[Thirston]

15 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

So, if it comes to that, whether or not he will want to stay will be determined if he wants to stay home at a cheap deal or if he wants a bigger payday. 

 

I could see Stecher coming back cheaper more so in this sort of scenario but IDK about Virtanen.

 

Still a risk to lose RFAs for nothing but we will have to see what the trade market is for these sort of guys. Perhaps it may come to us having to not qualify Stecher/Virtanen.

If he’s qualified but another team signs him then the Canucks get draft picks based on the salary don’t they? 

[aGENT]

I'm guessing Benning uses the 'we're disappointed'/lack of consistency/commitment/covid cap/you want to stay in your home town with your 'crew' leverages and signs him to a 'discounted' $2-$2.5m deal. Then when Podkolzin shows up a couple months in to next season when he's done in the K, he's HEAVILY shopped (barring a miraculous maturation)

Edited September 15, 2020 by aGENT

[WeneedLumme]

6 hours ago, aGENT said:

I'm guessing Benning uses the 'we're disappointed'/lack of consistency/commitment/covid cap/you want to stay in your home town with your 'crew' leverages and signs him to a 'discounted' $2-$2.5mdeal. Then when Podkolzin shows up a couple months in to next season when he's done in the K, he's HEAVILY shopped (barring a miraculous maturation)

Agree with the bolded part. But don't agree that he will be heavily shopped next season, even if/when Pods shows up, unless his season is a big disappointment. I still remember Big Bert, who had shown no more consistency or production by this age than Jake has. And who started to break out the next year.

[aGENT]

1 hour ago, WeneedLumme said:

Agree with the bolded part. But don't agree that he will be heavily shopped next season, even if/when Pods shows up, unless his season is a big disappointment. I still remember Big Bert, who had shown no more consistency or production by this age than Jake has. And who started to break out the next year.

Barring miraculous maturation, I don't think management view him as 'Canuck material'.

 

On 9/14/2020 at 10:04 AM, aGENT said:

Yup.

 

I honestly think the organization is either out of, our damn close to, out of patience waiting for him to get it. You can only put so many resources, time, coaching etc in to a player that doesn't want to do their part. Particularly with other players steadily coming in both behind you (prospects), and ahead of you (adding Miller, Toffoli etc). If you're not going to put the work required in, your going to get squeezed out. Plain and simple.

 

They also seem to have a very firm idea of what makes for a championship calibre team. And that's character guys who will 'work harder than everybody else' to get any edge they can and be the best version of the player they can be. Jake has a lot of valuable tools and assets... But that's not him.

 

[RWMc1]

I still think Jake is going to get even stronger. He still has peach fuzz on his face. Some guys mature at a different rate. He has gotten better each year and I believe he is on the cusp of a 50+ point season.

Tuch was in his 3rd Playoffs, so that is not a fair comparison. The trade Jake stuff seems like a knee jerk fan reaction.

 

Don't trade Jake unless the return is a middle RHD or we will regret it.

[peaches5]

On 9/14/2020 at 4:23 PM, Squamfan said:

canucks can not qualify him and give him a offer.

What? If vancouver doesn't qualify him he becomes a UFA and then he can sign with anyone.. He can sign for vancouver for less money if he wanted to. 

[VegasCanuck]

Jared McCann signing for slightly under 3 million would probably be used as a benchmark if he goes to Arbitration.

 

Now, who here on this board, thinks that Jake is currently a 3 million per year player? I'm not talking about potential, I'm talking about current engage level and overall performance on the ice.

 

He has tons of potential, he just really needs to up his engage.

 

[-AJ-]

3 hours ago, VegasCanuck said:

Jared McCann signing for slightly under 3 million would probably be used as a benchmark if he goes to Arbitration.

 

Now, who here on this board, thinks that Jake is currently a 3 million per year player? I'm not talking about potential, I'm talking about current engage level and overall performance on the ice.

 

He has tons of potential, he just really needs to up his engage.

 

If you looked at his regular season, I'd say he's firmly in $3M territory, but his playoff performance was sorely lacking.

[aGENT]

7 hours ago, RWMc1 said:

I still think Jake is going to get even stronger. He still has peach fuzz on his face. Some guys mature at a different rate. He has gotten better each year and I believe he is on the cusp of a 50+ point season.

Tuch was in his 3rd Playoffs, so that is not a fair comparison. The trade Jake stuff seems like a knee jerk fan reaction.

 

Don't trade Jake unless the return is a middle RHD or we will regret it.

The issue isn't his physical maturity. It's his lack of commitment to being a professional NHL'er. We're passed the point of waiting for guys who don't want to put in the effort, to 'possibly work out'.

 

A committed Virtanen would be looking at a $4m+ deal with term right now. As he is, he's looking at a one year $2-$2.5m deal or possibly not even being qualified.

 

That's on him. He's not 'Canuck' material and shows no signs of becoming so.

Edited September 19, 2020 by aGENT

[VegasCanuck]

5 hours ago, -AJ- said:

If you looked at his regular season, I'd say he's firmly in $3M territory, but his playoff performance was sorely lacking.

If he was playing with any type of consistency, I'd agree with you. He has the capability, just lacks a 200 foot game and only really good offensively if he's in top 6. Put him on the 3rd line and he's ineffective.