The joke that's become the Calgary Flames and Edmonton Oilers

[Mustapha]

I'm simply just saying that Calgary is a far better city then Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Calgarians like to think that, and I should know, I was born there

In reality however, not every NHLer would agree with that statement.

(Side note: Now that Edmonton has a new arena being constructed, now all of a sudden the Saddledome needs replacing...keeping up with the Joneses much Calgary?)

[William_Clarkson]

I like Giordano also, but Gio is not a Norris trophy worthy defenseman. His point totals are not even top 10, and neither is his plus/minus (He finished below Dan Hamhuis) In a league with Weber, Suter, Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, hell, even Yandle and Subban, Gio isn't getting his hands on the Norris without a superhuman season.

It's hard for a defenseman to get points when their forwards suck. Compare Giordano's 0.73 point per game rate to Keith's 0.77 point per game rate. Then consider that Chicago was the leading offensive team in the league and Calgary was one of the worse. Looks pretty damn good. Even better when you consider Giordano started 43.1% of his shifts in the offensive zone compared to Keith starting 57.3% of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Plus/minus is an even more pathetic stat to look at when comparing players on different teams. Shea Weber was a -2, think about that, Andrew Alberts was a +1, is he better defensively than Weber? Giordano was the runaway leader for +/- on his team, that's something you can say.

Let's compare Giordano and Keith further:

Giordano's TOI QoC% is 29.6 compared to Keith's 28.9. Giordano faces tougher competition (in fact Keith doesn't even face the toughest competition on his team for defenseman, Hjalmarson and Oduya do).

Though Keith had a better corsi for percentage (56.6% vs. 53.3%) consider that Chicago as a team has a 55.7% rating, yet Calgary's is only 45.8%. When Giordano is the on the ice, his team is registering more shots than they are facing. This is even better when you consider Giordano starts most of his shifts in the defensive zone. Keith, on the other hand starts well over half of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Giordano has 103 blocked shots compared to Keith's 89, despite playing 15 less games.

Takeaways per game are even at 0.61.

[Mustapha]

It's hard for a defenseman to get points when their forwards suck. Compare Giordano's 0.73 point per game rate to Keith's 0.77 point per game rate. Then consider that Chicago was the leading offensive team in the league and Calgary was one of the worse. Looks pretty damn good. Even better when you consider Giordano started 43.1% of his shifts in the offensive zone compared to Keith starting 57.3% of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Plus/minus is an even more pathetic stat to look at when comparing players on different teams. Shea Weber was a -2, think about that, Andrew Alberts was a +1, is he better defensively than Weber? Giordano was the runaway leader for +/- on his team, that's something you can say.

Let's compare Giordano and Keith further:

Giordano's TOI QoC% is 29.6 compared to Keith's 28.9. Giordano faces tougher competition (in fact Keith doesn't even face the toughest competition on his team for defenseman, Hjalmarson and Oduya do).

Though Keith had a better corsi for percentage (56.6% vs. 53.3%) consider that Chicago as a team has a 55.7% rating, yet Calgary's is only 45.8%. When Giordano is the on the ice, his team is registering more shots than they are facing. This is even better when you consider Giordano starts most of his shifts in the defensive zone. Keith, on the other hand starts well over half of his shifts in the offensive zone.

Giordano has 103 blocked shots compared to Keith's 89, despite playing 15 less games.

Takeaways per game are even at 0.61.

All of that information was great, but none of it makes a solid argument for Giordano winning the Norris Trophy.

I would like to know specifically what separates Giordano from the actual Norris winner (Keith) and the two other nominees (Chara, Weber) You might want to throw Doughty and Suter in there as well, as those guys.

If you can, maybe go light on the advanced stats. I know it's all the rage these days, but stats can be twisted around.

You stated that when Giordano is on the ice, Calgary registers more shots than they face. That sounds like a good statistic, until you find out that Calgary's winning percentage is actually lower when they outshoot their opponent. Maybe Gio should stay on the bench.

Or answer me this: If you could trade Gio for any of those other defensemen straight up with equal cap hit, would you? If so, which one would you choose and why? If not, why the hell not?

[aqua59]

Canuck fans get to look forward to the one-two punch of RNH/Draisaitl and Bennet/Monahan for the next umpteen years...These two franchises will be no joke when these elite players turn the corner..

Although it makes me wonder how long elite players will stay in the Alberta market....?..The players seem to have the hammer these days where they would like to play....I don't see the allegiance to teams that there used to be....I think that Edmonton,Calgary and Winnipeg will always be the least desirable,despite great fans.

And who do you think Calgary players will be facing during the same time span? Vancouver's latest draft picks.If they turn out. Heck, I hope Calgary is better. Until any recent picks come to fruition, from any team it's just speculation.

It's a tough league and Edmonton and Calgary are in tough. I think that Calgary has the edge because of their new management team. Edmonton, well?

I'm curious how many of Edmonton's young top players are going to want to stay in Edmonton.

In Calgary there's still a newness because of management changes, that feel in Edmonton has long since gone and I think their younger players must wonder if any one really knows what they're doing?

[John Tortorella]

They may be in rough standings wise but financially all 3 are above average and positive revenues. Cant say that for more desirable places. Half the nhl seems to have negitive operating income. Calgary and edmonton are above 10% and winnipeg is around 6% and keep in mind they are newly relocated.

[RUPERTKBD]

I'm simply just saying that Calgary is a far better city then Edmonton and Winnipeg.

Maybe, but the problem with that is a lot of NHLers would look at that statement like someone from Siberia saying Novosibirsk is waaayyyy better than Omsk....

[Ryan Strome]

Maybe, but the problem with that is a lot of NHLers would look at that statement like someone from Siberia saying Novosibirsk is waaayyyy better than Omsk....

This made me laugh. Anyhow, bottom line is Calgary IS a nice city, look up how many retired players live in Cowtown. For sure it's not Montreal, Vancouver or Toronto but it is a big beautiful city that really hasn't had issues attracting players, which is what the debate was about. It's not about comparing cities because believe me, as I have said before I think B.C is the most beautiful place on earth, especially the Okanagan. However, Calgary is a world class city just a little colder then most, again though most players would be out of town half the winter given the schedule.

[TOMapleLaughs]

The Canucks had their worst season in over 15 years and Edmonton was still a bigger joke.

[Neko]

This made me laugh. Anyhow, bottom line is Calgary IS a nice city, look up how many retired players live in Cowtown. For sure it's not Montreal, Vancouver or Toronto but it is a big beautiful city that really hasn't had issues attracting players, which is what the debate was about. It's not about comparing cities because believe me, as I have said before I think B.C is the most beautiful place on earth, especially the Okanagan. However, Calgary is a world class city just a little colder then most, again though most players would be out of town half the winter given the schedule.

Oh yes Calgary is a pretty awesome place, I'm glad I moved here from Vancouver.

And yeah you'll find lots of familiar NHL'ers in Kelowna or Kamloops too.

[RUPERTKBD]

This made me laugh. Anyhow, bottom line is Calgary IS a nice city, look up how many retired players live in Cowtown. For sure it's not Montreal, Vancouver or Toronto but it is a big beautiful city that really hasn't had issues attracting players, which is what the debate was about. It's not about comparing cities because believe me, as I have said before I think B.C is the most beautiful place on earth, especially the Okanagan. However, Calgary is a world class city just a little colder then most, again though most players would be out of town half the winter given the schedule.

I agree. However, the BCer in me doesn't allow for the passing up of an opportunity for a shot at Albertans...

[Canucks Curse]

Pssst. Don't look now but the Canucks appear to be installing a good ol' boys club of their own.

Canucks took a look a look in the mirror and made some big moves, yup, but they're behind Calgary in the rebuild and well behind Edmonton, so don't be shocked if there's a few years when they perform better in the standings.

Not sure if we are actually too far behind Calgary

They have sucked hard for a while and have Monohan and Bennett to show for that - that's not much

I actually like our prospect pool better as a whole

Plus we have a lot of character vets too help bring along the youth which Edmonton and Calgary dont

[Gaudette Celly]

Not sure if we are actually too far behind Calgary

They have sucked hard for a while and have Monohan and Bennett to show for that - that's not much

I actually like our prospect pool better as a whole

Plus we have a lot of character vets too help bring along the youth which Edmonton and Calgary dont

No way would I swap the Canucks roster and prospect pool for Calgary's, and certainly not Edmonton's. Nor team management and coaching.

[aqua59]

No way would I swap the Canucks roster and prospect pool for Calgary's, and certainly not Edmonton's. Nor team management and coaching.

That is part of my point. What have Edmonton and Calgary been up to? I'll say Calgary is ahead of Edmonton at this point too. The guys running the show in Edmonton are a bunch of hacks.Just because you won on the ice doesn't mean you can win off of it.

If Edmonton's first round draft picks don't start panning out pretty quick they're in even bigger trouble.

We talk about Vancouver being a wild card. Forget Vancouver. Are Edmonton or Calgary ready to challenge the California teams?

Not even close.

[Ryan Strome]

That is part of my point. What have Edmonton and Calgary been up to? I'll say Calgary is ahead of Edmonton at this point too. The guys running the show in Edmonton are a bunch of hacks.Just because you won on the ice doesn't mean you can win off of it.

If Edmonton's first round draft picks don't start panning out pretty quick they're in even bigger trouble.

We talk about Vancouver being a wild card. Forget Vancouver. Are Edmonton or Calgary ready to challenge the California teams?

Not even close.

Apart from Yakupov the Oilers picks have panned out it's the poor management staff that hasn't built a proper team around Eberle, Hall, Rnh and Yakupov.

[L. Stanley]

Couple things, apart from Yakupov the Oilers picks have panned out it's the poor management staff that hasn't built a proper team around Eberle, Hall, Rnh and Yakupov. As for Calgary and Edmonton comparing to California teams, well most the fans in Alberta don't think they do compare yet lots on cdc seem to think Vancouver does compare to the California teams. I would say that's the difference.

1.Yakupov actually hurts their team on and off the ice

2.Hall sure has picked up a nice resume of injuries but Hall and Eberle are excellent offensive players that they will build around.

3.RNH was brought in too early because he is just not physically mature. He has treaded water but you have to wonder about his confidence. He does not scare me at all and he has to match up against Getzlaf, Carter, Richards, Henrik, Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Backes - I mean you see what I am getting at. Reminds me a lot of why happened to Gilbert Brule but to a lesser extent -brought in to the league too early on a crap team at the time that could not shelter his minutes and develop him, Brule broke his leg and sternum and then confidence - gone.

4.Perron - great trade for Oilers

5. Rest of the lineup - still not convinced that they will have 12 NHL level forwards or 6 NHL level D men, plus while Scrivezina has been great for them, he is not a proven number 1.

They have a lot of D men that are heralded but let me just say this - those d prospects cannot be that good, because if they were, Edmonton would have already rushed them into the NHL and wrecked their development.

They could still turn things around and be a contender in 4-5 years but things need to start going right for them and that means bringing in truck loads of character players to show the guys what it takes to compete in the NHL.

Vancouver already has that character core to serve as scaffolding for the new guys - and I say we have about 10 forward prospects that have legitimate shots at being top 6 forwards on our team at some point. We do not have highend A+ prospects, but we have incredible depth at the forward and goaltending position and Benning by all accounts knows what he is doing.

[Ryan Strome]

1.Yakupov actually hurts their team on and off the ice

2.Hall sure has picked up a nice resume of injuries but Hall and Eberle are excellent offensive players that they will build around.

3.RNH was brought in too early because he is just not physically mature. He has treaded water but you have to wonder about his confidence. He does not scare me at all and he has to match up against Getzlaf, Carter, Richards, Henrik, Thornton, Marleau, Couture, Backes - I mean you see what I am getting at. Reminds me a lot of why happened to Gilbert Brule but to a lesser extent -brought in to the league too early on a crap team at the time that could not shelter his minutes and develop him, Brule broke his leg and sternum and then confidence - gone.

4.Perron - great trade for Oilers

5. Rest of the lineup - still not convinced that they will have 12 NHL level forwards or 6 NHL level D men, plus while Scrivezina has been great for them, he is not a proven number 1.

They have a lot of D men that are heralded but let me just say this - those d prospects cannot be that good, because if they were, Edmonton would have already rushed them into the NHL and wrecked their development.

They could still turn things around and be a contender in 4-5 years but things need to start going right for them and that means bringing in truck loads of character players to show the guys what it takes to compete in the NHL.

Vancouver already has that character core to serve as scaffolding for the new guys - and I say we have about 10 forward prospects that have legitimate shots at being top 6 forwards on our team at some point. We do not have highend A+ prospects, but we have incredible depth at the forward and goaltending position and Benning by all accounts knows what he is doing.

I actually edited that post because I didn't want to start a debate on how teams stack up. The thing is both the Alberta teams are in admitted rebuilds, God only knows how long the Oilers rebuild will last.

As for Calgary, the last 2 management staffs they had wouldn't start a rebuild, just kept trying to hang on. Now BT and BB will take some time in Calgary imo, and they have very good prospects in place.

So simply put, given the situations of the Alberta teams compared to ours we should/hope to match up better to California teams then the Alberta teams would.

[DrJockitch]

I will never admit it publicly but I really like the direction Calgary is heading. Yes they are going to suck this year but that is okay.

They also brought Burke in at the right time and he is not doing the day to day operations. Burke is a great guy to start the rebuild. The Leafs had a direction and are drifting listlessly since he left. Burke's MO is to go after the stud to build around first and in TO he made a bad choice, his others have usually been great. Anaheim was just a lucky situation to fall into otherwise he has always been the guy to start the build.

Some people have been saying Bennett was the worst choice for them, I don't agree. I lived in Calgary when Gilmour was there and he was the perfect player for the town. Burke is building a big feisty team and that is the perfect environment for him to work in. He plays that type of game despite his physical limitations and the wingers will create room for him to work and he is deadly on offence. He also is fairly physically immature which will save the Flames from their worst instincts and he will go back to Junior saving him from getting ruined like some Oiler forwards. I know it is common belief here that if a player isn't giving meaningful minutes in the NHL by the age of 20 they are a bust but really forcing kids into the league too early is how you create busts.

Yes they held on too long but they are going in the right direction and are trying to be competitive. They have second line centre of the future playing in Monahan, first line centre in Bennett in the system and don't forget Johnny Hockey will likely play this year. The team on the ice this year probably isn't going to be a lot better but they are competitive every night which is what you want and what Linden and Benning are trying to do.

The Oilers made the mistake of swinging too far to rebuild and as the management has talked about here, they gave their kids permission to loose and so now they have learned to be career loosers. Gagner was ruined and got nothing because they rushed him and decided to tank. He is a better pick then we have had in very long time to just destroy him and toss him away says a lot about a club. Yak is heading in same direction though seeing him play junior, he was already a lazy, ruined player. Maybe if they traded him to the Caps he could play on an all offence forward pair with Ovi and a defenceman as right winger.

The moves Oilers have made are decent. Massive overpayments but decent. I still don't believe their goaltending is good enough for what is in front of him. The rotation of defencemen is better but they have essentially added a 4,5 and 6th defencemen over the last two years when they needed 1,2 and 3. Nurse and Klefborn should probably be down for another year or they could be headed in the same direction as Gagner and Yak. Even when they make the club, it will take a couple years to work their way up to top pairings.

Draisaitl is a good pick up for them in that he is a good puck protection player and adds size. For all the rebuilding they have no centres coming, they are all getting ruined on the big club. I still think they needed more of a Kesler type to play tough minutes but I guess Pouliot will help. For all their flaws there is lot of talent. At some point it has to click for a season or two.

I hope we are finding a good middle ground. Some good kids that need developing have been added. Some decent young players have been acquired by trade to fill in the lineup while the kids learn their game and mature. Some quality, "character" vets around and a coach that is about developing players. Think we could still use on more year of high pics and trading a couple vets at deadline for another few pics and that may be coming this year given the degree of change that has occurred and how many people need to bounce back or progress their games this year to be competitive.

[aqua59]

I actually edited that post because I didn't want to start a debate on how teams stack up. The thing is both the Alberta teams are in admitted rebuilds, God only knows how long the Oilers rebuild will last.

As for Calgary, the last 2 management staffs they had wouldn't start a rebuild, just kept trying to hang on. Now BT and BB will take some time in Calgary imo, and they have very good prospects in place.

So simply put, given the situations of the Alberta teams compared to ours we should/hope to match up better to California teams then the Alberta teams would.

I have to give Calgary the edge buy a long shot. When Calgary brought in Burke they got instant credibility. Forget any of his NHL experience, the guy brings contract law with him. Solid experience in putting the right people into the right spots.

Edmonton? When was it that Kevin Lowe attended law or business management school? How about McTavish. Sure he's an experienced coach but the ownership trust him into a GM's spot with no experience. As for the people drafted before he showed, I'm still waiting for their draft picks to start developing. It's like Edmonton got a bunch of the same types of chemistry.

[CALGARY!]

Not sure if we are actually too far behind Calgary

They have sucked hard for a while and have Monohan and Bennett to show for that - that's not much

I actually like our prospect pool better as a whole

Plus we have a lot of character vets too help bring along the youth which Edmonton and Calgary dont

I think Calgarys prospect pool is currently alot deeper the Vancouvers. Monahan and Bennett are nice, but the likes of Poirer, Gaudreau, Granlund, and Klimchuk all impressed me very much at the rookie camp a few weeks ago. I think most, if not all of them will be very serviceable. Poirer and Gaudreau could easilly develop into 30 goal guys playing wing for Monahan and Bennet, Max Reinhart looks like he could crack the bottom 6 in a season or two.

On Defense Im really stoked about Kanzig as a big shut down guy, and Tyler Wotherspoon looks like he might be a solid top 4 Dman too. He's developed nicely and played a few games with the Flames last time, I think he recorded a few assists too, and plays with a mean edge.

Goaltending is a question mark, I think bringing Hiller in to mentor Ramo/Ortio was a great move.

Giordano is a good captain. Hes not the high profile leader Iggy was, but he is a longtime Flame, that was here during the 04 cup run, he has a high compete level and will mentor the young ones well. Also, I know you guys didnt care for him, but I think Raymond was a great pickup, he will help our PK and his speed almost resembles what Lombardi once brought to the team, although Raymonds hands are a bit less stonish then Lombardis.

Im really looking forward to the Flames roster once these players develop. I expect a few to make the jump this year.

I think if these players are developed properly, the Flames will have a strong core.

The Oilers made a good choice drafting Draisti this year, there top to lines should round out nicely RNH playing with any combination of Hall/Eberle/Perron/Yakupov, while Draisti takes the other two. Not to mention Darnell Nurse has put on muscle and from what I hear his game has really improved and he should soon be ready to add some real substance to their D. Purcell was a great pickup for them too, he can use his size and also take a top 6 role with some of the younger guys in a mentor sort of way.

I dunno, I think things are looking pretty good for Calgary in the next 2-3 seasons, and I think Edmonton is slowly working the bugs out of their system.

[Mustapha]

This is going to sound like I am nitpicking, but I am pretty sure Giordano still playing junior back when Calgary was in the Finals.

Dion Phaneuf hadn't even cracked the lineup at that time yet.