Angry Goose Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 EDIT: I agree that the line is missing a hard forecheck, but I'm hoping Vrbata finally decides to step up and move his feet and get in there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 Baertschi looks too damn good setting up plays from the LW to demote him yet. If it doesn't turn into goals, then at that point, you gotta do something. But Baertschi is playing like a 40 assist player all Utica stint, the pre-season and the first game on that side. I would give it a few more games. Plus, although they struggled as a line in the first period, they started to look like a good line halfway through the 2nd. So it's really only 1/2 a game that they've been given a chance. Not saying I would hate Virt on the RW though. Sedin - Sedin - Sutter Baer - Horvat - Virtanen Burrows - McCann - Vrbata Dorsett - Cracknell - Hansen That's one option. But Hansen had a great game, skated hard, was great on the forecheck AND scored a goal, so a demotion to the Cracknell line seems like a poor decision. And Burrows and Hansen on McCann's wing made up for a few gaffs (a suicide pass, some awkward positioning) that McCann made, Vrbata doesn't play as well defensively as those two. That's just my two cents though. I really would keep the line-up the same next game, except for maybe switching out Prust for Virtanen and putting Virtanen on the 2nd PP unit with Horvat and Baer. Did you actually read my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Mikheyev Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I did read your post, and I think moving Baer for Horvat's LW is a bad idea at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 I did read your post, and I think moving Baer for Horvat's LW is a bad idea at this point. More regarding the Virtanen comment but anyhoo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucklehead73 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well the second line almost scored a couple goals... Would change most peoples opinion if they scored I'll wager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derr12 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Throw hansen with bearcheeze n horvat. re-unite burrows with the twins. have a 2a in higgy/sutter/vrbata. Use the 4th line for rookies/tough-guys depending on opponents. thats 3 solid lines right there with offensive output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well the second line almost scored a couple goals... Would change most peoples opinion if they scored I'll wager Nope. I have little doubt they'll get points as currently assembled. There's too much talent there. I didn't start this thread in some state of sheer, blind panic that our second line is 'useless'. (I understand how one would assume so given CDC's usual M.O. of sheer panic first , ask questions later.) I'm still pretty convinced we'd get better production from the more even distribution of assorted talents of playmakers/scorers/forecheckers though. It's not so much: "what's wrong with the 2nd line?! ", but more: "I think the second line could be better". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Langdon Algur Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I actually love the line, Baer and Borvat have chemistry, I say leave it be unless it causes problems. Agreed plus Horvat provides the forechecking presence the OP seems to think the line lacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 8, 2015 Author Share Posted October 8, 2015 ...the forechecking presence the OP seems to think the line lacks... *...on the wing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOMapleLaughs Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 For now you keep the line intact. Later the solution will present itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted October 11, 2015 Author Share Posted October 11, 2015 How about after two games guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nino Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 This seems to be an ongoing topic of discussion in numerous threads so I though it might merit it's own. With Baer and Vrbata on Horvat's wings, that line (while skilled) seems to lack a forechecking/board battle presence. It's making Horvat especially IMO less effective and hence the line/team less effective. WD needs to get a forechecker on the second line IMO. While everyone's clamoring for the 'kid line' we saw in the preseason to be reunited, I actually think we're better off tweaking that and making a different 'kid line' (or possibly 'kid pair' plus Hansen). Sedin, Sedin, Sutter Burrows, Horvat, Vrbata Baer, McCann, Hansen/Virtanen Dorsett, Cracknell, Virtanen/Hansen *Sub in Prust for injuries, if Virt needs a game off, playing a bruising team etc. IMO, putting a forechecker in Burrows with Horvat/Vrbata will do wonders. Same with McCann and Hansen/Virtanen. Either pair of those three (McCann/Hansen/Virtanen) will give space to Baer to make plays and they all have good-great shots and great speed. Baer would also likely benefit from the likely lesser QOC he'd face on the third line which IMO would help him get his footing and gain more confidence. I didn't see this topic before but you were dead on. I was not happy with baers or vrbatas game last night at all and after reading your post I'd agree, we have two soft players who avoid the dirty areas playing on the same line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 I like the way you think OP. I think this is a variation on the old Sniper-Playmaker-Forechecker line construction concept. This seems to be an ongoing topic of discussion in numerous threads so I though it might merit it's own. With Baer and Vrbata on Horvat's wings, that line (while skilled) seems to lack a forechecking/board battle presence. It's making Horvat especially IMO less effective and hence the line/team less effective. WD needs to get a forechecker on the second line IMO. While everyone's clamoring for the 'kid line' we saw in the preseason to be reunited, I actually think we're better off tweaking that and making a different 'kid line' (or possibly 'kid pair' plus Hansen). Sedin, Sedin, Sutter Burrows, Horvat, Vrbata Baer, McCann, Hansen/Virtanen Dorsett, Cracknell, Virtanen/Hansen *Sub in Prust for injuries, if Virt needs a game off, playing a bruising team etc. IMO, putting a forechecker in Burrows with Horvat/Vrbata will do wonders. Same with McCann and Hansen/Virtanen. Either pair of those three (McCann/Hansen/Virtanen) will give space to Baer to make plays and they all have good-great shots and great speed. Baer would also likely benefit from the likely lesser QOC he'd face on the third line which IMO would help him get his footing and gain more confidence. If we're isolating on the 2nd line, I think that Horvat is providing the gristle as it is presently constructed. On the rush, it's probably better for the forechecker to arrive first which is difficult for centres to do. There are lots of good, possible line combinations and judging from Willies pressers, he thinks in these terms too. There are lots of goals one might have in setting a line up and I think that the present one is a bit of an experiment designed to fit McCann in to see how he will react to regular season play. Vrbata should clearly be top 6 and I agree with the idea to put him on the 2nd line to spread the offense out. He has yet to score a goal but it is early days still. The line has produced. I think that I'd rather shelter McCann with some skilled veterans for the short term. Longer term, like trade deadline, I wouldn't be surprised to see Vrbata moved for picks which would leave that line open for Baertchi Horvat Virtanen which worked in pre-season and given some seasoning, could work well for the future and fits your model. Since they are heading to play the big teams in California, do we see McCann sitting next game? It might be beneficial for him to watch and reflect anyways. This may open the door for the following line up: Sedin Sedin Burrows Baertschi Horvat Vrbata Dorsett Sutter Virtanen Prust Cracknell Hansen......or some other combination of these players They have a nice problem as it sits now because I think that they have 14 legit forward starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyhee Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 J.R.'s original post said in part: With Baer and Vrbata on Horvat's wings, that line (while skilled) seems to lack a forechecking/board battle presence to which Crabcakes responded in part: ... I think that Horvat is providing the gristle as it is presently constructed. On the rush, it's probably better for the forechecker to arrive first which is difficult for centres to do. ... Since they are heading to play the big teams in California, do we see McCann sitting next game? It might be beneficial for him to watch and reflect anyways. This may open the door for the following line up: Sedin Sedin Burrows Baertschi Horvat Vrbata Dorsett Sutter Virtanen Prust Cracknell Hansen......or some other combination of these players ... ________________________________ (finished quoting now-for some reason the quote button didn't work for me this post) It strikes me that most are ignoring the word "board" from the original post. The whole point, as I understood it, of J.R.'s post is that Horvat's production can be improved by adding a 2nd forechecker to the line, having two including Horvat. The winger would be checking along the boards more than the center. Perhaps I've been unfair in quoting crabcakes' response as he pretty clearly understands the idea while some other posters don't seem to be able to see parts of the original post. (J.R.'s multiple times asking if people had read his post are amusing entertainment.) Another of the things J.R. mentioned that I'm not sure some posters paid attention to (or maybe they just disagreed with it) was Vrbata being too good to put on the 3rd line. Imo that is probably true for reasons that don't have much to do with line chemistry. One of those is that if the management of the Canucks is giving any thought to trading Vrbata by the trade deadline, an idea we see expressed often on this forum, moving him to a less productive 3rd line isn't going to enhance either his trade value or his enthusiasm for the game. Baertschi is a playmaker who can also score, McCann appears so far to be good at shooting and almost as good playmaking. I don't see any reason to think that Baertschi, who seems so far to fit well with Horvat, wouldn't also fit with McCann. The original post seemed to make a lot of sense as something to try some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted October 11, 2015 Share Posted October 11, 2015 Good discussion. They need a way to bring Virt in next game. Leave the McCann line as it is, don't mess with a good thing and mess with McCanns confidence and chemistry with Burr and Hansen. Bring in Virt on 4th line and give him some shifts with Bo and Baer to see if they can handle the load in a regular season game. I wouldn't promote Vrby to Sedin line because that would reward his disinterested and apathetic play. Lowering Vrbys mins by giving Virt a few shifts on the 2nd line would send a msg to vrby that his hissy fit won't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathew Barzal Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Rockin Ronny to the Rescue! ... ? Kenins - Horvat - Vrbata IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 J.R.'s original post said in part: With Baer and Vrbata on Horvat's wings, that line (while skilled) seems to lack a forechecking/board battle presence to which Crabcakes responded in part: ... I think that Horvat is providing the gristle as it is presently constructed. On the rush, it's probably better for the forechecker to arrive first which is difficult for centres to do. ... Since they are heading to play the big teams in California, do we see McCann sitting next game? It might be beneficial for him to watch and reflect anyways. This may open the door for the following line up: Sedin Sedin Burrows Baertschi Horvat Vrbata Dorsett Sutter Virtanen Prust Cracknell Hansen......or some other combination of these players ... ________________________________ (finished quoting now-for some reason the quote button didn't work for me this post) It strikes me that most are ignoring the word "board" from the original post. The whole point, as I understood it, of J.R.'s post is that Horvat's production can be improved by adding a 2nd forechecker to the line, having two including Horvat. The winger would be checking along the boards more than the center. Perhaps I've been unfair in quoting crabcakes' response as he pretty clearly understands the idea while some other posters don't seem to be able to see parts of the original post. (J.R.'s multiple times asking if people had read his post are amusing entertainment.) Another of the things J.R. mentioned that I'm not sure some posters paid attention to (or maybe they just disagreed with it) was Vrbata being too good to put on the 3rd line. Imo that is probably true for reasons that don't have much to do with line chemistry. One of those is that if the management of the Canucks is giving any thought to trading Vrbata by the trade deadline, an idea we see expressed often on this forum, moving him to a less productive 3rd line isn't going to enhance either his trade value or his enthusiasm for the game. Baertschi is a playmaker who can also score, McCann appears so far to be good at shooting and almost as good playmaking. I don't see any reason to think that Baertschi, who seems so far to fit well with Horvat, wouldn't also fit with McCann. The original post seemed to make a lot of sense as something to try some time. I agree with the OP that Horvat would benefit with a good fore checker on his line. I think that long term this could very well be Virtanen. At this point though, Virtanen doesn't have the experience to play top 6. He'll have to earn that. So that leaves Burrows and possibly Sutter as the only 2 players in the line up who I would be comfortable playing a top 6 fore checking role. Hansen and Higgins are career 3rd liners who could slot in for short periods only imo. There are lots of moving parts. Assuming Burr and Sutter play the top 6 fore checking role, that means that as the only other centre, McCann must play 3C. If Vrbata must play top 6, then as the OP suggests, Baertschi must move down to 3LW. Given these parameters, we have arrived back at the same line up the OP originally posted. And the top 3 lines all have a fore checker, a play maker and a sniper. Questions: How does Baertchi take the demotion? Are we giving up on the chemistry between Baertschi and Horvat? This construct could work and is possible but in the real world, I think that often, chemistry trumps what seems to work best on paper. The other thing is if McCann gets sent down, this line up falls apart because Sutter or Horvat will have to play 3C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I agree with the OP that Horvat would benefit with a good fore checker on his line. I think that long term this could very well be Virtanen. At this point though, Virtanen doesn't have the experience to play top 6. He'll have to earn that. So that leaves Burrows and possibly Sutter as the only 2 players in the line up who I would be comfortable playing a top 6 fore checking role. Hansen and Higgins are career 3rd liners who could slot in for short periods only imo. There are lots of moving parts. Assuming Burr and Sutter play the top 6 fore checking role, that means that as the only other centre, McCann must play 3C. If Vrbata must play top 6, then as the OP suggests, Baertschi must move down to 3LW.Given these parameters, we have arrived back at the same line up the OP originally posted. And the top 3 lines all have a fore checker, a play maker and a sniper. Questions: How does Baertchi take the demotion? Are we giving up on the chemistry between Baertschi and Horvat? This construct could work and is possible but in the real world, I think that often, chemistry trumps what seems to work best on paper. The other thing is if McCann gets sent down, this line up falls apart because Sutter or Horvat will have to play 3C. How about we don't send McCann anywhere. We need his skill, speed, and grit. I like Vrbata with Horvat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ice orca Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Agreed plus Horvat provides the forechecking presence the OP seems to think the line lacks.Horvat can't do all the heavy lifting himself eventually he will get injured. Baer and Vrbata seem to be allergic to corners and behind the net, sometimes you have to get dirty and play in the greasy areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 Horvat can't do all the heavy lifting himself eventually he will get injured. Baer and Vrbata seem to be allergic to corners and behind the net, sometimes you have to get dirty and play in the greasy areas. Then put Hansen in that role. Or even better, play VIRTANEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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