The 3 "bad" trades...

[xereau]

 

On Kass, there's another aspect I haven't heard many mention, but I believe merits consideration. I think JB is doin HONEST biz, where he's not trying to outright-fleece rival GM's.

I agree with this!  It will benefit the team in the long run as GM's will be much more open to dealing.

[NorthernTorch]

Prust trade was good from the get go.Kassian has a long history of being a head case, from breaking curfew in Junior to getting in a bar fight in Windsor after the Spits won the memorial cup (plea bargain to community service, $500 fine/donation and paying the other guy's dental fees). I sincerely hope he gets the help he needs in rehab.

[elvis15]

...

Also, credit to Benning for having the balls to make bold moves like trading Lack and Kassian. Gillis never had the stones to do it. Benning's trades have really bettered this team, even though at the time they were harshly received. 

Not so sure you can be so harsh on Gillis for not having stones. How did we get Kassian again? Who traded Schneider? Traded Ehrhoff when he wasn't cooperating during negotiations (after trading for him in a steal of a deal to begin with!), went after players like Weber, Doan and even Schultz, all while he was mandated by the Aquilini's to be in win now mode. Not everything came off, but even looking at what did there were some pretty ballsy moves.

[Junkyard Dog]

Not so sure you can be so harsh on Gillis for not having stones. How did we get Kassian again? Who traded Schneider? Traded Ehrhoff when he wasn't cooperating during negotiations (after trading for him in a steal of a deal to begin with!), went after players like Weber, Doan and even Schultz, all while he was mandated by the Aquilini's to be in win now mode. Not everything came off, but even looking at what did there were some pretty ballsy moves.

His hands were tied with moving Schnieder because of how poorly he handled trying to move Luongo. It all resulted in us trading both goalies for Matthias Markstrom and Horvat while retaining 800k of Luongo's salary.

IMO how badly he handled the goaltending was his biggest fail during his tenure.

Handed out NTC's like Candy which handcuffs us a bit to this day.

In general Gillis went downhill fast after our run. The only bright spot mainly was his drafting from 2011 and on which has been above average. 

[Fred65]

Hard to argue your point except we needed a skill centre but in trhe beartschi deal we already had a better winger Matthius plus Shinkaruk and Gaunce in the wings in Utica

[elvis15]

His hands were tied with moving Schnieder because of how poorly he handled trying to move Luongo. It all resulted in us trading both goalies for Matthias Markstrom and Horvat while retaining 800k of Luongo's salary.

IMO how badly he handled the goaltending was his biggest fail during his tenure.

Handed out NTC's like Candy which handcuffs us a bit to this day.

In general Gillis went downhill fast after our run. The only bright spot mainly was his drafting from 2011 and on which has been above average. 

And Benning wasn't forced into trading Lack and Kassian? And Gillis would have had the matter settled early on if Luongo had accepted the deal Gillis was rumoured to have worked out with Toronto, but Luongo got bad advice from his agents and declined thinking he could still force a deal with Florida. Just like we know now about Kassian's issues, we also know that Florida didn't have the approval (or the funds) from ownership to even make a Luongo deal until it finally happened.

If you want to praise Benning but fault Gillis, I can't stop you. NTC's on contending teams were common, Gillis' hand was forced by Acquilini to try and keep the team a contender, etc. - there were factors in everything and you're choosing to overlook the similarities in your approach between the two GMs.

[Googlie]

 

Handed out NTC's like Candy which handcuffs us a bit to this day.

 

Weren't the NTC's in recognition of the players taking the Vancouver discount?

I remember the flak Burrows took from players from around the league when he resigned - about $1 million per below market according to TSN at the time.  His (Burrow's) take at the time was "but I have the Canucks' commitment to me for the term".

Same with the Sedins, Kes, Edler, Hamhuis, Higgins .... all signed below market but with NTCs.  Gillis prolly saved a few million that way, enabling him to ice a stronger team that rewarded him by getting to the finals.

[Junkyard Dog]

And Benning wasn't forced into trading Lack and Kassian? And Gillis would have had the matter settled early on if Luongo had accepted the deal Gillis was rumoured to have worked out with Toronto, but Luongo got bad advice from his agents and declined thinking he could still force a deal with Florida. Just like we know now about Kassian's issues, we also know that Florida didn't have the approval (or the funds) from ownership to even make a Luongo deal until it finally happened.

If you want to praise Benning but fault Gillis, I can't stop you. NTC's on contending teams were common, Gillis' hand was forced by Acquilini to try and keep the team a contender, etc. - there were factors in everything and you're choosing to overlook the similarities in your approach between the two GMs.

I don't find that rumored Toronto deal conclusive evidence why Gillis couldn't get a deal done for Luongo. Not credible.

Benning had a choice to make. He had to make a hard decison to chose Lack or Markstrom. Gillis wanted to move Luongo not Schneider, he held on to Luongo too long and it screwed him over. He was forced to move Schneider. Benning could of moved Markstrom if he wanted, he wasn't forced to move Lack at all he just chose one goalie over the other.

Kassian never fit the description on how we want our next core of players to be. If we had kept him than there was the risk of him setting a bad example for the other youngsters. That was a risk Benning did not want to take and so far it is serving him right.

I don't like the fact that Gillis handed out NTC on lengthy contracts to role players. I get Kesler, Sedins, Edler, Hamhuis and Bieksa since they were key players at the time but when Higgins Hansen and Burrows get them as well then it is too much IMO.

If we ever want to move players like Burrows, Hansen or Higgins we won't get good value. They also don't have as high of value as those key players that have NTC's to begin with.

Gillis did a lot of good things, especially during our 2010-11 season. Brought in guys like Tanev and Lack, both of which were rookie FAs. 

I am not saying he was always bad and that Benning is always in the right. We've yet to see Markstrom play so the answer is still out there on whether or not trading Lack was the right choice

After the finals Gillis trended downwards. It is safe to say that.

[Junkyard Dog]

Weren't the NTC's in recognition of the players taking the Vancouver discount?

I remember the flak Burrows took from players from around the league when he resigned - about $1 million per below market according to TSN at the time.  His (Burrow's) take at the time was "but I have the Canucks' commitment to me for the term".

Same with the Sedins, Kes, Edler, Hamhuis, Higgins .... all signed below market but with NTCs.  Gillis prolly saved a few million that way, enabling him to ice a stronger team that rewarded him by getting to the finals.

It handcuffs us if we try to move these players, like it did for Kesler.

I don't think Higgins, Hansen or Burrows needed NTC's IMO.

[erkayloomeh]

Hated the Kassian trade at the time. With time I began to like it a bit more because clearly, Kassian wasn't in managements plans. Seeing Prust in the pre-season kind of brought me a bit back to my first thoughts...

Now though, Prust is kind of looking like a compressed Kassian with all those backhand passes to the slot. He's also better defensively. Liking the trade so far.

yes. But im wondering if we will be able to resign him.

[BlackRedYellow]

yes. But im wondering if we will be able to resign him.

If not, I'm guessing we will get a better pick than a 5th... So that and all the blood, sweat and tears from this season is a pretty good return for a player who we don't know if he'll ever play again. (Sure hope he does though!)

[elvis15]

I don't find that rumored Toronto deal conclusive evidence why Gillis couldn't get a deal done for Luongo. Not credible.

Benning had a choice to make. He had to make a hard decison to chose Lack or Markstrom. Gillis wanted to move Luongo not Schneider, he held on to Luongo too long and it screwed him over. He was forced to move Schneider. Benning could of moved Markstrom if he wanted, he wasn't forced to move Lack at all he just chose one goalie over the other.

Kassian never fit the description on how we want our next core of players to be. If we had kept him than there was the risk of him setting a bad example for the other youngsters. That was a risk Benning did not want to take and so far it is serving him right.

I don't like the fact that Gillis handed out NTC on lengthy contracts to role players. I get Kesler, Sedins, Edler, Hamhuis and Bieksa since they were key players at the time but when Higgins Hansen and Burrows get them as well then it is too much IMO.

If we ever want to move players like Burrows, Hansen or Higgins we won't get good value. They also don't have as high of value as those key players that have NTC's to begin with.

Gillis did a lot of good things, especially during our 2010-11 season. Brought in guys like Tanev and Lack, both of which were rookie FAs. 

I am not saying he was always bad and that Benning is always in the right. We've yet to see Markstrom play so the answer is still out there on whether or not trading Lack was the right choice

After the finals Gillis trended downwards. It is safe to say that.

How about Luongo's statements that he'd blocked a trade to try and still get a deal done with Florida (which, as I mentioned wasn't even capable of happening on any reasonable terms at that point)? So that's Gillis' fault? And he had a hard choice to make over trading Schneider or dumping (or even buying out) Luongo in order to go with the younger goalie.

NTCs aren't a Canucks only thing, even for 2nd tier players. That's why there are limited NTCs and all that so a team can have options. Even if Burrows didn't have one, his value isn't what it once was considering his age and ability now. We've certainly seen players traded who have them, and a number of them happening on the Canucks in recent years.

Gillis wasn't perfect in the latter part of his role as GM, but why people want to view Benning as some sort of saint with Gillis as the incompetent buffoon by comparison I don't know. That's all I was saying in the original reply as well, and we know that Gillis was handcuffed from making the moves he wanted by ownership when we found out he was interested in starting the retool before his firing.

[thema]

Funny how everyone thinks we should've gotten more for Lack. Maybe you all should have worked the phones for 3 month trying to find a trade partner that would give you more. Great job by Benning getting us anything for a guy that'll be out of the league in 3 years.

You realize that Miller will almost certainly be out of the NHL in 3 years as well...

[shinker]

Even highlight reel fans should notice those two perfect passes he fed McCann for two of his four goals this season. That piece of skill is the biggest surprise for me.

While these stats are fun to prop up our return, it doesn't change the fact that Kes is still a better player despite his (and the entire Ducks team) struggles early this season. But the big win for us, is the long term. When JB traded Kes two years ago, that was the right timing. We would've got less return by holding onto him one more year and closer to his UFA. Look at the ridiculous long deal he got from the Ducks. It's a huge win for us in so many ways. GMJB is the man.

No he is NOT. Both career seasons totaled 29 points, Kassian two years ago and Prust in 2010/11 with the Rangers. Prust plays in more situations (ie PK) than Kassian, much more of a pro on and off the ice.  The only thing is that Kassian HAD more potential and a higher ceiling but it means jack when you are not playing.  So judging by everything up to date, Kassian is NOT a better player than Prust.  

no kidding, even with all the facts out, that fool is still spouting his nonsense, someone's definitely got a hard on for Kass

[TheHockeyNerds]

I couldn't agree with you more! Some Canuck fans just like to complain without letting the situation play out 

[LaBamba]

How about Luongo's statements that he'd blocked a trade to try and still get a deal done with Florida (which, as I mentioned wasn't even capable of happening on any reasonable terms at that point)? So that's Gillis' fault? And he had a hard choice to make over trading Schneider or dumping (or even buying out) Luongo in order to go with the younger goalie.

Gillis hung himself the day he inked Luongo to that pathetic, desperate, contract. That is the root cause of all his mistakes. All this other crap is irrelevant. 

[Nave]

I liked all these trades. Never understood why people were crying like sissies. 

[soshified]

Hard to argue your point except we needed a skill centre but in trhe beartschi deal we already had a better winger Matthius plus Shinkaruk and Gaunce in the wings in Utica

Hunter was our only true offensive LW.

Gaunce was converted to LW.

And Matthias? Lol

[soshified]

I knew of Kassian's substance abuse issues last season. Despite that, he finished in the 88th percentile for points per minute 5 on 5. I figured on the ice he was a small step away from being a physical, 20 goal / 40 point 2nd line player (he scored 10 in 42, so not far off a 20 goal pace). Losing a player with this production and potential (still only 24) for an overpriced 4th liner PLUS giving up a 5th round pick seemed awful at the time, just for the potential upside. However, we still won as Kassian's issues surfaced and he will never play a game in a Habs uniform. Same thing would have happened in Vancouver. A 5th for Prust, given how he has played so far, is great value. It is obvious that his issues were known, but I guess Bergevin figured the risk was worth it. 

Win Benning

The Sutter for Bonino trade is interesting. At first I liked it. Then I heard the hockey pundits and both Pens & Canucks fans give their take, and it looked pretty bad. At the time it looked like we made a lateral move, added salary, and lost a decent defensive prospect in Clendening. 

A relative of mine who is a Pens fan mentioned at thanksgiving "what the heck is with Bonino, he is slow and not very intense. Can't believe we gave up Sutter for this hack". Bonino is/was slow. Good shot, decent passing ability, and could block shots but overall I kind of hated the way he played. Super inconsistent, and would pretty much disappear. Sutter is the much better player. Clendening is sitting in the waivers warming tray. We would have lost him anyway, since Hutton is way better. 

Win Benning

Lack so far has done nothing with Carolina, whereas Miller has really stepped up as a solid number one. To me, a Miller / Markstrom tandem made a lot more sense than a Lack / Markstrom tandem. I was just a huge fan of the guy, and hated the return. Not sure about the Brisebois pick. Not a lot of NHL dmen come out of the Q, and his 3 points and -13 so far are a bit discouraging. Still calling this one a loss - not because of Miller vs Lack, but because we got a terrible return. 

Brisebois is considered a leader on the worst QMHL team. I'll be surprised if he was an even player

[agent007]

But our youth isn't 4-5 years away. They're knocking politely right now, next season they'll be kicking in the door. 

I would have rather given Matthias a two year extension than spend such an exorbitant amount on a guy who's career high in points is 33. It's not even like Matthias wanted out. He loved it here, had a career year in fact! 

I liked Matthias and I do believe he could have been resigned. Fact is Brandon Sutter is the better player, has always been the better player, and will continue being the better player. FYI Sutter's Career high is 40 points. 21 goals twice. Too me the way Brandon plays screams Canuck