Googlie Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I have a friend staying with me who is hockey-savvy (retired amateur goalie and coach) and we have watched the last few games together. Why do all our 3 forwards collapse with the 2 defensemen all within 10 feet of the goal? No-one covers the point shot, and unless we can overman and win the battles in the corners, the puck is going back to the point and a shot is coming. One of 3 things then happen ... forwards try to block the shot from too far away (not close enough to get a stick on it to deflect) resulting in injury (Higgins, Burrows, Baertschi ........ 3 attackers and 5 defenders crowding the front of the net dramatically increases the chance of a random deflection beating the goalie ...... even at 6'6" (Markstrom) let alone 6'2" (Miller) it's hard for the goalie to sight the puck while being screened by 8 players. We watched the Winnipeg and Chicago games closely, focussing on the opposition tactics - every time we were in their zone they had a man high, usually the center, who pivoted to the pointman whenever they recognized a puck coming round the boards for a possible shot, Their breakouts were easier too, as they always had that man available between our pointmen to receive a pass, meaning that they didn't have to ring it round the boards every time like we do, or adopt the short risky passes in the defensive zone. Watch the San Jose game tonight and see what he means - is this WD's coaching style? Are players doing it of their own accord, not trusting the defense? Is it a "too many rookies" syndrome? Or is my friend living in a prior decade and not recognizing modern tactics? Thoughts?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Boudreau Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 I will watch more closely tonight and get back on that for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJDDawg Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Too many rookies IMO. The veterans then cheat and try to go to spots where the rookies should be, creating openings elsewhere. I'm glad we've finally begun the transition all in, but this is what will happen when you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 1 minute ago, chilliwiggins said: coaching styles matched to the quality of players on the ice. your right about being suseptable to injurys more so playing that collapsing style, I don't like it my self I prefer pressuring the puck I'm not sure it is the kids. Most of them have been with the club long enough that they would have got the message by now if coaching was about pressuring the puck. There is a theory about collapsing on the goal and perhaps that is what WD believes. It is what Torts coached I believe. Watching the Hawks, SJS and LA pressure the puck everywhere on the ice certainly looks like a mire effective way to reduce scoring chances. I do notice that almost in all areas of the ice, our players are slow to pressure when the opponent has the puck. I also notice that our guys seem slow to make plays and get off shots. Perhaps they practise the way they play against opponents and are used to having more time to make decisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down by the River Posted March 29, 2016 Share Posted March 29, 2016 Part of the problem is that when a team is struggling, nobody trusts one another to do their job, or players will be trying so hard to make every effort on the defensive end to cover for one another. So, you'll get wingers coming down low to try and help out a Centreman... especially when you have smaller or inexperienced Cs (Vey, Granlund, McCann). As a consequence, you've got everyone collapsing to the front of the net. Not only does this leave the high slot/points open, it makes break-outs a real scramble because there is no spacing between the three forwards. You've basically got to skate the puck 30/45 feet to get out of your own zone, and then once you do, the spacing problem still remains so you dump the puck in. Other team's defence has any easy retreat behind their net, there is no forecheck pressure because the first man in is barely across the blueline, so it is an easy exit. Wash, rinse, repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aqua59 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 39 minutes ago, Googlie said: I have a friend staying with me who is hockey-savvy (retired amateur goalie and coach) and we have watched the last few games together. Why do all our 3 forwards collapse with the 2 defensemen all within 10 feet of the goal? No-one covers the point shot, and unless we can overman and win the battles in the corners, the puck is going back to the point and a shot is coming. One of 3 things then happen ... forwards try to block the shot from too far away (not close enough to get a stick on it to deflect) resulting in injury (Higgins, Burrows, Baertschi ........ 3 attackers and 5 defenders crowding the front of the net dramatically increases the chance of a random deflection beating the goalie ...... even at 6'6" (Markstrom) let alone 6'2" (Miller) it's hard for the goalie to sight the puck while being screened by 8 players. We watched the Winnipeg and Chicago games closely, focussing on the opposition tactics - every time we were in their zone they had a man high, usually the center, who pivoted to the pointman whenever they recognized a puck coming round the boards for a possible shot, Their breakouts were easier too, as they always had that man available between our pointmen to receive a pass, meaning that they didn't have to ring it round the boards every time like we do, or adopt the short risky passes in the defensive zone. Watch the San Jose game tonight and see what he means - is this WD's coaching style? Are players doing it of their own accord, not trusting the defense? Is it a "too many rookies" syndrome? Or is my friend living in a prior decade and not recognizing modern tactics? Thoughts?? Keystone Coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maniwaki Canuck Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Interesting points, OP. A few games ago when we were losing ugly, one of the points the players and WD mentioned was that the spread between forwards and D was too great and that they need to play more as a 5 man unit. While that doesn't automatically equate to collapsing, it might explain it as an over-compensation. Alternatively, it might just be the game plan. Either way, I agree that it's not the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintPatrick33 Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Perhaps when you desperately need a top 3 pick, defensive zone strategy tends to go out the window. I do not think it is really fair to assess our strategies right now, we are just playing the young guys and seeing how they handle responsibility. Our PP has been some bland mucous for some time now, and our PK has taken a nose dive. This will be worth it if we could get one of the 3 franchise changing players in the draft. We deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 40 minutes ago, chilliwiggins said: Well you have to be smarter pressuring the puck you have to anticipate a lot more where as collapsing its not really as important cause your rarely not much more then half a step out of position where as a bad read playing puck pressure you can be right out of the play and ultimately for a fraction of a second another man down Burrows and Hansen can play puck pressure pretty good but Kesler is one of the best at that style. couple other notables at puck pressure was matt cooke and Mike Peca Overall skill age and experience fosters what you can play and puck pressure isn't suited for this roster I think Quite likely the defensive strategy is at least influenced by the personnel being deployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Zamboni Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 the pre-game team pump up song in the locker room is the theme from benny hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Down by the River said: Part of the problem is that when a team is struggling, nobody trusts one another to do their job, or players will be trying so hard to make every effort on the defensive end to cover for one another. So, you'll get wingers coming down low to try and help out a Centreman... especially when you have smaller or inexperienced Cs (Vey, Granlund, McCann). As a consequence, you've got everyone collapsing to the front of the net. Not only does this leave the high slot/points open, it makes break-outs a real scramble because there is no spacing between the three forwards. You've basically got to skate the puck 30/45 feet to get out of your own zone, and then once you do, the spacing problem still remains so you dump the puck in. Other team's defence has any easy retreat behind their net, there is no forecheck pressure because the first man in is barely across the blueline, so it is an easy exit. Wash, rinse, repeat. Basically this. Don't think overly collapsing is a coaching strategy. No coach is going to ask the players to leave the points open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Boudreau Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 Looks like the lack of continuity in the lines and the youg guys has the team confused. Vets know the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogersTowell Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 OP makes some very good points. Why keep leaving the point men open, wide wide open? There's very poor defensive structure. How hard is it to go man to man and stay between your guy and the net? Or modified zone, and you stick with your man in your zone and freestyle off that a bit to pick up loose guys who flood one zone or try to loose a check on the zone switch. Basic flow sport defence. I can only think it goes back to the coach, but if so, how did he ever get to this level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Fig Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 14 hours ago, khay said: Basically this. Don't think overly collapsing is a coaching strategy. No coach is going to ask the players to leave the points open. I'm not so sure about that. Some D-zone preferences are to encourage shots from the point, and then block and deflect (Torts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khay Posted March 30, 2016 Share Posted March 30, 2016 5 hours ago, Jack Fig said: I'm not so sure about that. Some D-zone preferences are to encourage shots from the point, and then block and deflect (Torts). Yeah I guess you are right, it is a legitimate strategy. LA and Boston (used to anyways) adopts collapsing near the net strategy when the puck is near the net (or within the faceoff circles). But I don't think the type of collapsing that we see from the Canucks is due to any kind of strategy. They collapse around the net in such a way that if the puck were to go back to the point, they won't be able to get in the shooting lane quick enough or will be caught in that no-man's land where you aren't really able to block anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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