Popular Post JM_ Posted November 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, spook007 said: Good call... I do fancy Gudbransson to make more points as we get better, but doubt it'll be anything like Bieksas out put. If he could add a few more points to his account he'd be a belter... those seasons were on some very high scoring teams tho, normally KB is a 15-20 point guy which Gudbranson can easily get to once we have more than 1 scoring F line. I can't quite figure out what some people are upset about with Guddy this year. Don't quote Corsi to me for a D man, its a stupid stat for D. Burns currently has a CF% of 55 and is a -8 with no goals. Better trade him, he's a bum right? 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: those seasons were on some very high scoring teams tho, normally KB is a 15-20 point guy which Gudbranson can easily get to once we have more than 1 scoring F line. I can't quite figure out what some people are upset about with Guddy this year. Don't quote Corsi to me for a D man, its a stupid stat for D. Burns currently has a CF% of 55 and is a -8 with no goals. Better trade him, he's a bum right? Yeah looked KB up as well... he scored 8-11 and 12 in those 40 point seasons. It always help if you're part of a high scoring team. Lots of assists... Definitely agree that being part of a high scoring team makes it easier to raise your own input. Will he reach 40 points, I dunno about that, but for me its more important he can log the hard minutes handling the big guys of this league. Its not even debatable... watching us over the last few years, it has been hard to stomach watching anybody wearing a Canucks shirt getting hammered at will without any response. It has definitely changed... Like the Burns comparison... Edited November 9, 2017 by spook007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 24 minutes ago, spook007 said: Yeah looked KB up as well... he scored 8-11 and 12 in those 40 point seasons. It always help if you're part of a high scoring team. Lots of assists... Definitely agree that being part of a high scoring team makes it easier to raise your own input. Will he reach 40 points, I dunno about that, but for me its more important he can log the hard minutes handling the big guys of this league. Its not even debatable... watching us over the last few years, it has been hard to stomach watching anybody wearing a Canucks shirt getting hammered at will without any response. It has definitely changed... Like the Burns comparison... Burns CF% has never correlated with his production, hits, giveaways, takeaways or +/-... but other than that CF% is an AWESOME way to look at D 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said: Burns CF% has never correlated with his production, hits, giveaways, takeaways or +/-... but other than that CF% is an AWESOME way to look at D Where are the analytics folks at? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, spook007 said: Yeah looked KB up as well... he scored 8-11 and 12 in those 40 point seasons. It always help if you're part of a high scoring team. Lots of assists... Definitely agree that being part of a high scoring team makes it easier to raise your own input. Will he reach 40 points, I dunno about that, but for me its more important he can log the hard minutes handling the big guys of this league. Its not even debatable... watching us over the last few years, it has been hard to stomach watching anybody wearing a Canucks shirt getting hammered at will without any response. It has definitely changed... Like the Burns comparison... Imagine how Canucks players have felt, being run into the boards by LA, Anaheim, and San Jose for the past few years. I harken back to when Dustbin Brown leveled Henrik during the playoffs, and he was barely able to get to the door for the bench. There was zero response to the Kings, especially Brown during that series, and the Kings continued to hit the Canucks into oblivion, using their physicality to take a stranglehold on the series. Going back to having a team with zero response to aggression (which still exists in spades in the NHL) would be a hard pill to swallow and would turn off a lot of fans from wanting to watch a pushover team. The Canucks already have quite a few young players with speed to burn, they need some size to insulate them. Edited November 9, 2017 by PhillipBlunt 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boudrias Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said: Imagine how Canucks players have felt, being run into the boards by LA, Anaheim, and San Jose for the past few years. I harken back to when Dustbin Brown leveled Henrik during the playoffs, and he was barely able to get to the door for the bench. There was zero response to the Kings, especially Brown during that series, and the Kings continued to hit the Canucks into oblivion, using their physicality to take a stranglehold on the series. Going back to having a team with zero response to aggression (which still exists in spades in the NHL) would be a hard pill to swallow and would turn off a lot of fans from wanting to watch a pushover team. The Canucks already have quite a few young players with speed to burn, they need some size to insulate them. So bang on! You can go through any number of series in the past. Regular season play is not CUP play, not even close. If a team does not have the capacity to respond physically then the likely out come is losing. So many fans oversimplify the physical equation into fighting. IMHO that is one aspect only and not close to the most important. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, PhillipBlunt said: Imagine how Canucks players have felt, being run into the boards by LA, Anaheim, and San Jose for the past few years. I harken back to when Dustbin Brown leveled Henrik during the playoffs, and he was barely able to get to the door for the bench. There was zero response to the Kings, especially Brown during that series, and the Kings continued to hit the Canucks into oblivion, using their physicality to take a stranglehold on the series. Going back to having a team with zero response to aggression (which still exists in spades in the NHL) would be a hard pill to swallow and would turn off a lot of fans from wanting to watch a pushover team. 1000 +points for the gif alone... It says more than I can in a thousand words. I find it hard to fathom, how this can even be a discussion, if you've been following this team. Last time we were in play offs we lost to a rather poor Flames team, and some punk called Ferland became relevant.... together with 18year old Sam Bennett... Next round they got demolished by a Ducks team that could stand up to the physically... I'm not saying having a Gudbransson will stop Sedins getting hit, but their star players will vanish just like ours, and that is important. And as a fan, I want them to fight back... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, Boudrias said: So bang on! You can go through any number of series in the past. Regular season play is not CUP play, not even close. If a team does not have the capacity to respond physically then the likely out come is losing. So many fans oversimplify the physical equation into fighting. IMHO that is one aspect only and not close to the most important. The majority who oversimplify do so because they are too busy looking at Corsi/Fenwick charts to determine a player's worth. They have no clue. Zero. The NHL playoffs are a war. The speed and skill evident in the regular season is almost overshadowed by the massive uptick in physical play (as you stated, not only fighting). The emotional quality of play increases lock step with that physicality. Players like Gudbranson, Dorsett, and the like are invaluable at this time. I ask those in analytics again. Why would Jim Rutherford sign Ryan Reaves, the season after the Penguins won the Cup? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, spook007 said: 1000 +points for the gif alone... It says more than I can in a thousand words. I find it hard to fathom, how this can even be a discussion, if you've been following this team. Last time we were in play offs we lost to a rather poor Flames team, and some punk called Ferland became relevant.... together with 18year old Sam Bennett... Next round they got demolished by a Ducks team that could stand up to the physically... It's a discussion because those who purvey analytics as the only answer, believe that they know more than the atypical hockey fan. They harbor resentment at the fact that GMs (minus John Chayka), coaches, and players will always view analytics as a useful, but peripheral tool, and not everything under the sun. Vancouver seems to be a hotbed of analytics weasels, Chayka being one of them, so the instances of impotent, keypunching, blog-posting derision is going to be higher here. Add in attention whores like Crotchturd, and you have the present predicament. 8 minutes ago, spook007 said: I'm not saying having a Gudbransson will stop Sedins getting hit, but their star players will vanish just like ours, and that is important. And as a fan, I want them to fight back... The Sedins never helped themselves either by turning the other cheek. Daniel should have snapped and gone Viking on Marchand during the 2011 finals. That would have been perfect. But he didn't. Henrik and Daniel are very likely on their swansong here, so any protection through the drafting, trading, or signing of physical players will be done with the younger players in mind. I think Gudbranson's presence helps to cultivate a team wide mental and physical approach to being confident. Other players are apt to stand up for themselves if Gudbranson is there to step in should a more dominant player try something. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post -AJ- Posted November 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2017 I think the debate on Gudbranson's worth needs to take tangibles into account along with intangibles. On a tangible basis, his numbers are fairly poor; however, the intangibles Gudbranson provides, leadership and grit, are also to be considered. These intangibles are even more valuable to a team like our, as we're lower on grit, in particular, than we maybe should be, further increasing Gudbranson's value. In the end, as much as I value statistical analysis, the intangibles that Gudbranson brings to the Canucks are too great to lose him. He plays a valuable role on this team, even with 0 points. 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook007 Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said: It's a discussion because those who purvey analytics as the only answer, believe that they know more than the atypical hockey fan. They harbor resentment at the fact that GMs (minus John Chayka), coaches, and players will always view analytics as a useful, but peripheral tool, and not everything under the sun. Vancouver seems to be a hotbed of analytics weasels, Chayka being one of them, so the instances of impotent, keypunching, blog-posting derision is going to be higher here. Add in attention whores like Crotchturd, and you have the present predicament. The Sedins never helped themselves either by turning the other cheek. Daniel should have snapped and gone Viking on Marchand during the 2011 finals. That would have been perfect. But he didn't. Henrik and Daniel are very likely on their swansong here, so any protection through the drafting, trading, or signing of physical players will be done with the younger players in mind. I think Gudbranson's presence helps to cultivate a team wide mental and physical approach to being confident. Other players are apt to stand up for themselves if Gudbranson is there to step in should a more dominant player try something. I can think of nothing I would have wanted more than Daniel going abe $&!# on Marchand... and it not happening, will probably hurt longer than not winning the cup... I think it may have lifted the team the last few percent to get over the line... However as you rightly say, we are changing our physical approach, and a major reason for this is Gudbransson. Its much easier to be tough, when your bro is 7 feet between the eyes, and build like a brick $&!#house... I hope we build a mentality of one for all, all for one... If we get knocked out of our next play offs, whenever that'll be, it shouldn't be because we were bullied. If for nothing else, at least to please the fans in the stands. I will remember the fans standing up, clapping their hands as Guddy exited the penalty box, for a long time to come.... Edited November 9, 2017 by spook007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 minute ago, spook007 said: I can think of nothing I would have wanted more than Daniel going abe $&!# on Marchand... and it not happening, will probably hurt longer than not winning the cup... I think it may have lifted the team the last few percent to get over the line... However as you rightly say, we are changing our physical approach, and a major reason for this is Gudbransson. Its much easier to be tough, when your bro is 7 feet between the eyes, and build like a brick $&!#house... I hope we build a mentality of one for all, all for one... If we get knocked out of our next play offs, whenever that'll be, it shouldn't be because we were bullied. That's what the team needs. I highly doubt that Calgary would have beat the Canucks, had Gudbranson been there to beat the ever-loving crap out of Ferland, who was guilty of charging on numerous occasions to which the useless zebras turned a blind eye to. Bieksa fed him a few, but it did nothing to deter the situation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silky mitts Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 jeez 5-6 mill I hope not . Definitely not worth that money. 4.5 at most imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 15 minutes ago, Silky mitts said: jeez 5-6 mill I hope not . Definitely not worth that money. 4.5 at most imo Yeah, I'd say 5.25 might be his upper limit. More than that is really pushing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 31 minutes ago, Silky mitts said: jeez 5-6 mill I hope not . Definitely not worth that money. 4.5 at most imo based on that I think his expectations would be..... Ah Gilman, making stuff up to get airtime. Is it really a surprise that no team hired him and now he's on 1040? What a joke. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariyaSakicAnderson Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, Silky mitts said: jeez 5-6 mill I hope not . Definitely not worth that money. 4.5 at most imo Gilman is still upset that Benning and Co. let him go. I think Gudbranson may be looking around the 5 million mark, however a contract comparable is what Karl Alzner received, around the 4.625 mil for around 4 or 5 years. By the time that contract is done he will still be relatively young around 30 and still command a hefty salary. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 8 minutes ago, KariyaSakicAnderson said: Gilman is still upset that Benning and Co. let him go. I think Gudbranson may be looking around the 5 million mark, however a contract comparable is what Karl Alzner received, around the 4.625 mil for around 4 or 5 years. By the time that contract is done he will still be relatively young around 30 and still command a hefty salary. I'd wager he ends up somewhere around $4.5 +/-. My guess is $4,333,333 X 6 years ($26m) but I wouldn't blink an eye at $4,666,666 X 6 years ($28m) either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KariyaSakicAnderson Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 20 minutes ago, aGENT said: I'd wager he ends up somewhere around $4.5 +/-. My guess is $4,333,333 X 6 years ($26m) but I wouldn't blink an eye at $4,666,666 X 6 years ($28m) either. Those numbers look right for him. Anywhere in that ball park is very good for both player and team! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 2 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said: The Sedins never helped themselves either by turning the other cheek. Daniel should have snapped and gone Viking on Marchand during the 2011 finals. That would have been perfect. But he didn't. Henrik and Daniel are very likely on their swansong here, so any protection through the drafting, trading, or signing of physical players will be done with the younger players in mind. I think Gudbranson's presence helps to cultivate a team wide mental and physical approach to being confident. Other players are apt to stand up for themselves if Gudbranson is there to step in should a more dominant player try something. If the officials would actually CALL the infractions - that might solve a number of these issues. I still can't over the fact Ferland was allowed to continually take runs at our players like he had an immunity idol on back in our last playoff series with them. Sedins have always NEVER received the proper respect from the men in stripes (it's hardly like the twins are dive artists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rob_Zepp Posted November 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted November 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Silky mitts said: jeez 5-6 mill I hope not . Definitely not worth that money. 4.5 at most imo Just remember it was a similar quote from Gilman saying Horvat's camp would insist on north of $6 million. Sounds like pot stirring only aim here. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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