Erik Gudbranson | #44 | D

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, kanucks25 said:

 

 

Fantastic contribution to the discussion, very intellectual.

 

Thumbs up.

I didn't know you came here to rate posts. I hope you get paid for that kind of work, because if you don't, well you need to get out more.

[kanucks25]

On 1/14/2019 at 9:18 AM, Alflives said:

Hockey people understand the importance of having Gudbranson on your team.  Those, who really don't understand the violence and intimidation inherent in the game, don't.  It's as simple as that. 

If Gudbranson was a real deterrent:

- Matheson wouldn't have taken liberties on Pettersson

- That Tampa plug wouldn't have blindsided Stecher

- Reaves wouldn't taken a cheap-shot at Edler

 

The list goes on. It's not the 1980's anymore. The rules make it so players can run around dangerously and then when a guy like Gudbranson comes over to confront them, they just turtle and he gets a roughing or instigator penalty.

 

I don't underestimate his value to the locker-room, but people need to get over this idea of him being or eventually becoming a legit top-4 D-man as he's a liability against most top-6 skill players. On a contender, he's a #6 that is sheltered at even-strength and plays the 2nd unit PK.

Edited January 24, 2019 by kanucks25

[Zhukini]

10 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

If Gudbranson was a real deterrent:

- Matheson wouldn't have taken liberties on Pettersson

- That Tampa plug wouldn't have blindsided Stecher

- Reaves wouldn't taken a cheap-shot at Edler

 

The list goes on. It's not the 1980's anymore. The rules make it so players can run around dangerously and then when a guy like Gudbranson comes over to confront them, they just turtle and he gets a roughing or instigator penalty.

 

I don't underestimate his value to the locker-room, but people need to get over this idea of him being or eventually becoming a legit top-4 D-man as he's a liability against most top-6 skill players. On a contender, he's a #6 that is sheltered at even-strength and plays the 2nd unit PK.

I always thought of him as a reactionary tough guy, one that will do something only in certain circumstances and only if he has too. Kind of like Jake in that regard.

 

Jake at least has shown glimpses of good puck skills to make up for when he takes games off physically. Guddy on the other hand, well...

[kanucks25]

35 minutes ago, Zhukini said:

I always thought of him as a reactionary tough guy, one that will do something only in certain circumstances and only if he has too. Kind of like Jake in that regard.

 

Jake at least has shown glimpses of good puck skills to make up for when he takes games off physically. Guddy on the other hand, well...

They're similar players in that they both have the alluring "tools" that allowed them to get taken very high in the draft. They have that physical X-factor that every team and fan covets but hockey IQ, one of the more important traits in a player, is questionable at best.

 

The good thing about Jake is that it's not too late for him. He's 22 and in his 4th pro season, he still has a season or two to take that next step in his development.

 

Unfortunately that time was 5 years ago for Gudbranson, it's long gone.

[PhillipBlunt]

15 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

If Gudbranson was a real deterrent:

- Matheson wouldn't have taken liberties on Pettersson

- That Tampa plug wouldn't have blindsided Stecher

- Reaves wouldn't taken a cheap-shot at Edler

Yeah, because Gudbranson is out on the ice for the full 60 minutes? You seem to, sometimes, make sense when you post, but this is ridiculous.

 

By the same faulty reasoning, because Lucic was such a force in the 2011 playoffs, Hamhuis wouldn't have given him a massive hipcheck, because of Lucic, Chara, McQuaid and the like being such effective deterrents. These types of players usually only work when they're on the ice, as leaving the bench during a game usually comes with a misconduct.

 

Matheson was embarrassed by Petterson and then took liberties. He's now been exposed as a coward. At the time he choke slammed Petterson, I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking about how it was going to play out for him. He was caught flatfooted and made to look the fool.

 

That Tampa plug was just the type of player that would hit the head during a game, and ended up paying a price. Again, a plug desperate to make a name for himself on a contender.

 

Reaves is a huge player, who I don't think is frightened by anyone in the league. And was Subban deterred by Reaves last night when he tried to fishhook Bellamare? I don't think so.

15 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

The list goes on. It's not the 1980's anymore. The rules make it so players can run around dangerously and then when a guy like Gudbranson comes over to confront them, they just turtle and he gets a roughing or instigator penalty.

That's true. There are plenty of cowards in the league thanks to the rules, and the refs.

15 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

I don't underestimate his value to the locker-room, but people need to get over this idea of him being or eventually becoming a legit top-4 D-man as he's a liability against most top-6 skill players. On a contender, he's a #6 that is sheltered at even-strength and plays the 2nd unit PK.

Has anyone made the assertion that Gudbranson is a top defenseman in the league? I don't think so. He doesn't possess the skill to be in that upper echelon of blueliners, and most Canucks fans are aware of this. Some of us appreciate what he brings, which is a level of insulation for the younger players. He has issues in his own end, as proven by recent games, which are magnified by having a defensive partner like Pouliot. However, last year, when he was paired with Edler, Gudbranson's game showed significant improvement. He feeds off of having a solid partner. Campbell and Mitchell in Florida proved this.

[SilentSam]

2 hours ago, kanucks25 said:

Even if that was true (which I'm not going to get into)... you realize we need to make the playoffs first, right? Or maybe we should healthy scratch him for 82 games to give us a better chance so that he can "shine" in the playoffs.

 

Gudbranson has never been matched up against the other team's best forwards as a Canuck whatsoever save for the few games Edler and Tanev have both been out of the lineup.

 

He's been sheltered, and still hasn't looked good.

I never said he was matched up against the other teams BEST forwards..   I said. Other Teams meanest and toughest...  you know,  the ones that usually smash and crumple the likes of Tanev and Edler.

..  funny, ..  the song “Rubber Band Man”  goes well with that twist.. you dance pretty good dude.. but not scoring to well on this floor.

 

 

[SilentSam]

1 hour ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Yeah, because Gudbranson is out on the ice for the full 60 minutes? You seem to, sometimes, make sense when you post, but this is ridiculous.

 

By the same faulty reasoning, because Lucic was such a force in the 2011 playoffs, Hamhuis wouldn't have given him a massive hipcheck, because of Lucic, Chara, McQuaid and the like being such effective deterrents. These types of players usually only work when they're on the ice, as leaving the bench during a game usually comes with a misconduct.

 

Matheson was embarrassed by Petterson and then took liberties. He's now been exposed as a coward. At the time he choke slammed Petterson, I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking about how it was going to play out for him. He was caught flatfooted and made to look the fool.

 

That Tampa plug was just the type of player that would hit the head during a game, and ended up paying a price. Again, a plug desperate to make a name for himself on a contender.

 

Reaves is a huge player, who I don't think is frightened by anyone in the league. And was Subban deterred by Reaves last night when he tried to fishhook Bellamare? I don't think so.

That's true. There are plenty of cowards in the league thanks to the rules, and the refs.

Has anyone made the assertion that Gudbranson is a top defenseman in the league? I don't think so. He doesn't possess the skill to be in that upper echelon of blueliners, and most Canucks fans are aware of this. Some of us appreciate what he brings, which is a level of insulation for the younger players. He has issues in his own end, as proven by recent games, which are magnified by having a defensive partner like Pouliot. However, last year, when he was paired with Edler, Gudbranson's game showed significant improvement. He feeds off of having a solid partner. Campbell and Mitchell in Florida proved this.

You can’t argue your point with scientists these days PB.   

 

[PhillipBlunt]

16 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

You can’t argue your point with scientists these days PB.   

 

I always will.

[kanucks25]

3 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Yeah, because Gudbranson is out on the ice for the full 60 minutes? You seem to, sometimes, make sense when you post, but this is ridiculous.

Never suggested it. But if he was a real deterrent, the other team would be aware he's on the bench and would think twice about doing something stupid in fear of what would happen on his next shift.

 

1 hour ago, SilentSam said:

I never said he was matched up against the other teams BEST forwards..   I said. Other Teams meanest and toughest...  you know,  the ones that usually smash and crumple the likes of Tanev and Edler.

This is the NHL, not the UFC. Good hockey players play against the other team's good hockey players. If you're not being matched up against the other team's best, you're a depth player.

[aGENT]

42 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Never suggested it. But if he was a real deterrent, the other team would be aware he's on the bench and would think twice about doing something stupid in fear of what would happen on his next shift.

Things like this:

 

 

...that lead to guys like Lucic having a rather quiet game after that. Is it going to stop the odd random Matheson etc player from cheap shotting EP or others? Probably not. But that's not particularly his role or purpose.

 

And no, as I said earlier in this thread, he's not going to be THE guy on say a 2nd pairing. But he can be a nice complimentary piece to a solid guy (ie: Campbell in FLA or Edler in spurts here last year) on a second pair or a solid guy on a 3rd pair (if not required to babysit).

 

Nobody's claiming he's Orr 2.0. 

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Things like this:

 

 

...that lead to guys like Lucic having a rather quiet game after that. Is it going to stop the odd random Matheson etc player from cheap shotting EP or others? Probably not. But that's not particularly his role or purpose.

 

And no, as I said earlier in this thread, he's not going to be THE guy on say a 2nd pairing. But he can be a nice complimentary piece to a solid guy (ie: Campbell in FLA or Edler in spurts here last year) on a second pair or a solid guy on a 3rd pair (if not required to babysit).

 

Nobody's claiming he's Orr 2.0. 

But.....aGENT, if he isn't leading the Norris competition or beating every player down who breathes near Petterson, he's a joke. C'mon man!

[PhillipBlunt]

55 minutes ago, kanucks25 said:

Never suggested it. But if he was a real deterrent, the other team would be aware he's on the bench and would think twice about doing something stupid in fear of what would happen on his next shift.

And you're in tune with what players are aware of when they're on the ice? Do you read their journals?

[kanucks25]

44 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

And you're in tune with what players are aware of when they're on the ice? Do you read their journals?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make this deduction:

 

- Humans are afraid of consequences, especially when they involve pain

-- Gudbranson is in the game

--- Other teams take cheapshots at our players while Gudbranson is in the game

---- Other teams do not believe pain will be a consequence for taking cheapshots at our players while Gudbranson is in the game

----- Therefore, Gudbranson being in the game does note deter other teams from taking cheapshots at our players

Edited January 24, 2019 by kanucks25

[kanucks25]

51 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Things like this:

 

...that lead to guys like Lucic having a rather quiet game after that. Is it going to stop the odd random Matheson etc player from cheap shotting EP or others? Probably not. But that's not particularly his role or purpose.

Lucic isn't afraid of anyone. Getting hit isn't going to make him cower. The reason he has a quiet game after that is because he has a quiet game in almost every game he plays nowadays, he's a shell of his former self as a hockey player.

 

52 minutes ago, aGENT said:

And no, as I said earlier in this thread, he's not going to be THE guy on say a 2nd pairing. But he can be a nice complimentary piece to a solid guy (ie: Campbell in FLA or Edler in spurts here last year) on a second pair or a solid guy on a 3rd pair (if not required to babysit).

 

Nobody's claiming he's Orr 2.0. 

Read back through this thread and you'll see a ton of posts claiming that he's a legit top-4 D-man and even more ridiculous things like "he's only going to get better" as if he's still some 20 year-old prospect who's just getting his footing in the NHL.

 

I have no problem with him as a sheltered #6. Unfortunately, because our atrocious group of D, he has to play a larger role than that and it's exposing him.

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make this deduction:

 

- Humans are afraid of consequences, especially when they involve pain

Yet numerous people skydive, swim with sharks, motocross, bungee jump and on and on

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

-- Gudbranson is in the game

He's on the team, yes.

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

--- Other teams take cheapshots at our players while Gudbranson is in the game

As do players all over the league with other players, this isn't a Canuck specific issue.

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

---- Other teams do not believe pain will be a consequence for taking cheapshots at our players while Gudbranson is in the game

You've asked them? Or do you base that on their actions? Interesting deduction, Sigmund.

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

----- Therefore, Gudbranson being in the game does note deter other teams from taking cheapshots at our players

Awesome theorem. You clearly studied anthropology and human origins

 

Other teams take cheapshots with other players all over the league, and many of those teams have players that would be classified as "deterrents". Yet still it happens. Maybe, juuust maybe, the players are driven to win a game, and will accept the outcome, no matter how painful.

[kanucks25]

37 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Yet numerous people skydive, swim with sharks, motocross, bungee jump and on and on

Oh, sorry, you're right. It's human nature for people do purposely do things all the time that they know will lead to physical pain...

 

Excuse me while I take this hammer to my foot repeatedly as, you know, that's typical human behavior.

 

37 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

You've asked them? Or do you base that on their actions? Interesting deduction, Sigmund.

I watch the game, I see their actions. Their actions clearly show Gudbranson doesn't change their decision making. I'm not making a grand leap here.

 

37 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Other teams take cheapshots with other players all over the league, and many of those teams have players that would be classified as "deterrents". Yet still it happens. Maybe, juuust maybe, the players are driven to win a game, and will accept the outcome, no matter how painful.

Except, like I said before, it's not the 1980's and deterrents don't exist anymore because a) most of them can't play hockey (especially in today's game) and b) the rules don't allow for them to exist.

Edited January 24, 2019 by kanucks25

[Duodenum]

9 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Things like this:

...that lead to guys like Lucic having a rather quiet game after that. Is it going to stop the odd random Matheson etc player from cheap shotting EP or others? Probably not. But that's not particularly his role or purpose.

 

And no, as I said earlier in this thread, he's not going to be THE guy on say a 2nd pairing. But he can be a nice complimentary piece to a solid guy (ie: Campbell in FLA or Edler in spurts here last year) on a second pair or a solid guy on a 3rd pair (if not required to babysit).

 

Nobody's claiming he's Orr 2.0. 

i dunno, Lucic has been quiet in pretty much every game he's played this year .

 

The second part is odd. Essentially, he can be solid if he's being babysat? Why do we want a guy that needs a top guy just to make him look decent. Tanev, Stecher, Hutton, Edler...these guys have looked good no matter who they're paired with. Gudbranson can't really babysit anyone else because that would mean he's an otherwise good dman being brought down by someone else. He's the one bringing down others.

[PhillipBlunt]

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

Oh, sorry, you're right. It's human nature for people do purposely do things all the time that they know will lead to physical pain...

What are you talking about?

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

Excuse me while I take this hammer to my foot repeatedly as, you know, that's typical human behavior.

Maybe try your head instead. Just for $&!#s and giggles. I'll wait.

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

I watch the game, I see their actions. Their actions clearly show Gudbranson doesn't change their decision making. I'm not making a grand leap here.

Please provide an example. You know, like how aGENT provided the video of Lucic getting leveled by Gudbranson, and then gingerly skating up to him, and tapping his shim pad with his stick. This being the same Milan Lucic who routinely freaks the &^@# out when hit that hard.

1 minute ago, kanucks25 said:

Except, like I said before, it's not the 1980's and deterrents don't exist anymore because a) most of them can't play hockey (especially in today's game) and b) the rules don't allow for them to exist.

Most of them can't play hockey, yet are employed by NHL teams........I get that being an armchair GM is addictive, but I'll go with what actual GMs (still employed ones) do versus someone who has a very rudimentary understanding of the game.

[Zhukini]

45 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Things like this:

 

 

...that lead to guys like Lucic having a rather quiet game after that. Is it going to stop the odd random Matheson etc player from cheap shotting EP or others? Probably not. But that's not particularly his role or purpose.

 

And no, as I said earlier in this thread, he's not going to be THE guy on say a 2nd pairing. But he can be a nice complimentary piece to a solid guy (ie: Campbell in FLA or Edler in spurts here last year) on a second pair or a solid guy on a 3rd pair (if not required to babysit).

 

Nobody's claiming he's Orr 2.0. 

He has played more than 120 games as a Canuck. Lets say this sequence where he "quieted" Lucic is going to be best his best type of game. I'm sure most people would be okay with that. 

 

How many times do you think you've seen him have that kind of impact on a game in his 120 + games as a Canuck. I bet you I could count the number on two hands

[kanucks25]

43 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Most of them can't play hockey, yet are employed by NHL teams........I get that being an armchair GM is addictive, but I'll go with what actual GMs (still employed ones) do versus someone who has a very rudimentary understanding of the game.

So 2 days ago Peter Chiarelli was an expert in hockey whose knowledge we should heavily consider?

 

The guy who turned Hall, Eberle and the pick that became Barzal into Adam Larsson?

 

People even in the highest position can be idiots. I'm not suggesting I know enough to be an NHL GM, I know I don't, however that has nothing to do with evaluating Gudbranson.