Why Your Team Sucks: Vancouver Canucks

[CanadianRugby]

7 minutes ago, J.R. said:

That Bonino has largely played with far more offensively talented team mates against lesser competition in more offensive leaning situations, zone starts etc (though Bonino is also competent in many regards there, just less so than Sutter). 

 

There's stats on all that too that have already been posted in numerous Bonino/Sutter threads the last couple years FWIW. Yet the guy harping on about people ignoring stats continues to do so himself, oh so ironically. 

 

I never denied Bonino has scored more but there's a HELL of a lot more to the makeup of a hockey player than G, A, P. 

 

 

So zone starts and apparently awful teammates on the Penguins (although good enough to win the Cup) explain why Bonino is literally twice as good in the playoffs?  If Henrik got all the good zone starts you think he would score literally twice as many points as Daniel?  Give me a break.  By your argument Sutter should be at least a 60 point guy in Vancouver?  Considering he'll be getting 2nd line minutes with better linemates. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, CanadianRugby said:

So zone starts and apparently awful teammates on the Penguins (although good enough to win the Cup) explain why Bonino is literally twice as good in the playoffs?  If Henrik got all the good zone starts you think he would score literally twice as many points as Daniel?  Give me a break.  By your argument Sutter should be at least a 60 point guy in Vancouver?  Considering he'll be getting 2nd line minutes with better linemates. 

Nope. Sutter wasn't brought in to put up big offensive numbers. You still don't get it.

[5Fivehole0]

6 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

If Bonino's foot speed didn't work with the Canucks why did he have his 2nd best season ever with us?  His 39 points were only 1 point short of Sutter's best season ever.  Sutter is also a career +11 while Bonino is +29.  You think a 190lb guy with a limited skillset can be a shut down C in the west?  Shutdown C's usually have better FO% than 48.3%   We did overpay, and downgraded in talent or at best moved sideways.  Then overpaid again when it came to his contract.

It's not all about points, and if you remember Bonino was useless in the playoffs for the Canucks. The Canucks needed a faster two way guy. You're not seeing the entire picture, it's not about the points. The Canucks needed a guy like Sutter to take the tough faceoffs and shut down top lines, essentially replace Kesler.

Bonino wasn't that guy, so the Sedins were being matched up against top lines like Stamkos etc... Sutter has a 48.3% FO% against THE BEST. He is used to take the important D-zone faceoffs against Toews, Bergeron etc... I don't understand what you don't understand.

Bonino did nothing in Van but have a good first half of the season, and then was useless in the playoffs, but your short term memory can't seem to remember that

[CanadianRugby]

Just now, J.R. said:

Nope. Sutter wasn't brought in to put up big offensive numbers. You still don't get it.

Funny, I seem to remember everyone talking how he was brought in to score goals.  I guess management was lying.  So we're paying 4.375 million / year for a shut down C that has never shown he can be a shut down C?  Actually... I take everything back, you might be right.  Overpaying for 30 year old guy that can't score or play D has Benning written all over it.

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

 Sutter is also a career +11 while Bonino is +29.  

Seriously?  I think you should go read the trade thread instead of rehashing this dead horse.

Yeah, zone starts matter.  Yeah linemates matter.  Etc.

Have a look at who Sutter played with in Pittsburgh - compare them to Kessel and Hagelin (on a third line following the Crosby and Malkin lines) - and get back to us.

Hey, I'll save you the effort.  Craig Adams, Tanner Glass, Joe Vitale, Steve Downie, Nick Spaling.

Yeah - 20 goals playing with those guys = not bad.

[oldnews]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Funny, I seem to remember everyone talking how he was brought in to score goals.  I guess management was lying.  So we're paying 4.375 million / year for a shut down C that has never shown he can be a shut down C?  Actually... I take everything back, you might be right.  Overpaying for 30 year old guy that can't score or play D has Benning written all over it.

you're in over your head making claims like this.

 

But since you're big on +/-, do explain how Sutter is a +11 for his career with primarily defensive zone starts and strong quality of competition.

 

[aGENT]

Just now, CanadianRugby said:

Funny, I seem to remember everyone talking how he was brought in to score goals.  I guess management was lying.  So we're paying 4.375 million / year for a shut down C that has never shown he can be a shut down C?  Actually... I take everything back, you might be right.  Overpaying for 30 year old guy that can't score or play D has Benning written all over it.

No he was brought in to take defensive pressure off/free up Hank/the first line and shelter Horvat all while putting up 'decent' offensive numbers. Good but maybe a touch less offense than Bonino while doing other things Bonino couldn't, including skate fast against tough opposition.

 

Yes, it's a slight 'downgrade' in offense (if that, considering his far tougher usage) but he allows his teammates easier assignments.

 

But carry on...

 

[5Fivehole0]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

you're in over your head making claims like this.

 

But since you're big on +/-, do explain how Sutter is a +11 for his career with primarily defensive zone starts and strong quality of competition.

 

But but but but Bonino is a +29!!! YOU DON'T GET IT!!! 

Bonino puts up more points and has a better career +/-! He won a Stabley cup

[CanadianRugby]

2 minutes ago, 5Fivehole0 said:

It's not all about points, and if you remember Bonino was useless in the playoffs for the Canucks. The Canucks needed a faster two way guy. You're not seeing the entire picture, it's not about the points. The Canucks needed a guy like Sutter to take the tough faceoffs and shut down top lines, essentially replace Kesler.

Bonino wasn't that guy, so the Sedins were being matched up against top lines like Stamkos etc... Sutter has a 48.3% FO% against THE BEST. He is used to take the important D-zone faceoffs against Toews, Bergeron etc... I don't understand what you don't understand.

Bonino did nothing in Van but have a good first half of the season, and then was useless in the playoffs, but your short term memory can't seem to remember that

3 points in 6 playoff games is useless?  The team leader had 4 points.  If you want to see useless, look at Sutter's first season here.  Considering how Sutter apparently wasn't brought in to score (and he's never been a setup guy) he better be one hell of a shut down guy (which he's never been).  Because we gave up a lot to get him and now he's getting paid a lot of money. 

[CanadianRugby]

6 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Seriously?  I think you should go read the trade thread instead of rehashing this dead horse.

Yeah, zone starts matter.  Yeah linemates matter.  Etc.

Have a look at who Sutter played with in Pittsburgh - compare them to Kessel and Hagelin (on a third line following the Crosby and Malkin lines) - and get back to us.

Hey, I'll save you the effort.  Craig Adams, Tanner Glass, Joe Vitale, Steve Downie, Nick Spaling.

Yeah - 20 goals playing with those guys = not bad.

Wow 33 points last season on the Pens.  Congrats Sutter.  Too bad Bonino had 39 that year in Vancouver.  But hey, go ahead and celebrate a guy that's never had 20 assists in his career being our 2nd line C.  I mean, this team can't score but a 3rd line C trying to be a shutdown guy on our 2nd line is apparently the saviour this team needs. 

[DonaldBrashear]

This would be better if it wasn't coming from a Leafs fanboy, because most of the stuff in here also applies to the Leafs. I mean, come on, if there's one team that wants the NHL to revolve around it, its the leafs. Leafs fans think they are the centre of the universe. And having the Hockey Hall of Fame there, and hosting the World Cup there, just reinforces their ego.

[CanadianRugby]

10 minutes ago, J.R. said:

No he was brought in to take defensive pressure off/free up Hank/the first line and shelter Horvat all while putting up 'decent' offensive numbers. Good but maybe a touch less offense than Bonino while doing other things Bonino couldn't, including skate fast against tough opposition.

 

Yes, it's a slight 'downgrade' in offense (if that, considering his far tougher usage) but he allows his teammates easier assignments.

 

But carry on...

 

 

How does Sutter take defensive pressure off the first line?  Was the first line used as a checking line because Willie didn't trust Horvat?  I don't remember that happening once all season.  Pretty much the only thing that Sutter does better than Bonino is skate fast.  Yet despite his speed it hasn't translated to him scoring more or getting more ice time.  Despite Bonino's foot speed he managed to be on arguably the best line in the playoffs.

 

Do you honestly think that line would have been as good for the Pens if Sutter was on it instead of Bonino?  Sutter can't pass.  He's never had 20 assists.  He had a total of ONE primary assist his last year for the Pens.  Yes, Sutter can skate.  But he doesn't set up goals.  That's kinda important for a C.. especially if he's going to be getting 2nd line minutes.  The downgrade in offense isn't "slight" if you look at actual stats especially in the playoffs. 

[5Fivehole0]

13 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

3 points in 6 playoff games is useless?  The team leader had 4 points.  If you want to see useless, look at Sutter's first season here.  Considering how Sutter apparently wasn't brought in to score (and he's never been a setup guy) he better be one hell of a shut down guy (which he's never been).  Because we gave up a lot to get him and now he's getting paid a lot of money. 

Once again, points aren't everything.

Sutter was also injured with a couple of unlucky injuries. You literally have 0 point. How has he not been a shutdown guy? The guy has made a career of being a shut down C. He takes a majority of defensive zone starts against a high quality of competition while still being a career +11. That is a shut down C. You have no idea what you're talking about. Bonino had 3 points and was a -2, meaning he was on the ice for 2 more goals against than he was on for. Bonino wasn't good in the playoffs for Vancouver, which was a big reason why he was traded. 

He was also brought over to run the 2nd PP unit, which he didn't. I'm glad Bones did well in Pittsburgh, but he wouldn't have had that success here.

[5Fivehole0]

10 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Wow 33 points last season on the Pens.  Congrats Sutter.  Too bad Bonino had 39 that year in Vancouver.  But hey, go ahead and celebrate a guy that's never had 20 assists in his career being our 2nd line C.  I mean, this team can't score but a 3rd line C trying to be a shutdown guy on our 2nd line is apparently the saviour this team needs. 

Bonino had 6 more points, a worse FO% by 3% and wasn't useful in the last half of the season while facing a weaker QOC than Sutter.

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

 

[smithers joe]

3 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said:

Wow 33 points last season on the Pens.  Congrats Sutter.  Too bad Bonino had 39 that year in Vancouver.  But hey, go ahead and celebrate a guy that's never had 20 assists in his career being our 2nd line C.  I mean, this team can't score but a 3rd line C trying to be a shutdown guy on our 2nd line is apparently the saviour this team needs. 

or we can wait and see how he does this season and then judge him. he was brought in to allow horvat to develop slower. we don't know how many points he would have got if he had stayed healthy. fans on here where complaining that bonino's lack of foot speed was holding his line back. pittsburgh put him with 2 speedsters where his lack of speed didn't matter so much..why slag a guy who hasn't even played a full season of games. bonino thrived playing with 2 speedsters. when the right combo of talent and skill play along side sutter, then lets judge him..people don't seem to be happy unless they're tearing the team down. go figure.

[LaBamba]

27 minutes ago, oldnews said:

Seriously?  I think you should go read the trade thread instead of rehashing this dead horse.

Yeah, zone starts matter.  Yeah linemates matter.  Etc.

Have a look at who Sutter played with in Pittsburgh - compare them to Kessel and Hagelin (on a third line following the Crosby and Malkin lines) - and get back to us.

Hey, I'll save you the effort.  Craig Adams, Tanner Glass, Joe Vitale, Steve Downie, Nick Spaling.

Yeah - 20 goals playing with those guys = not bad.

I thought he had horrific underlying numbers as well. 

[aGENT]

Just now, CanadianRugby said:

How does Sutter take defensive pressure off the first line?  Was the first line used as a checking line because Willie didn't trust Horvat?  I don't remember that happening once all season.  Pretty much the only thing that Sutter does better than Bonino is skate fast.  Yet despite his speed it hasn't translated to him scoring more or getting more ice time.  Despite Bonino's foot speed he managed to be on arguably the best line in the playoffs.

 

Do you honestly think that line would have been as good for the Pens if Sutter was on it instead of Bonino?  Sutter can't pass.  He's never had 20 assists.  He had a total of ONE primary assist his last year for the Pens.  Yes, Sutter can skate.  But he doesn't set up goals.  That's kinda important for a C.. especially if he's going to be getting 2nd line minutes.  The downgrade in offense isn't "slight" if you look at actual stats especially in the playoffs. 

By not forcing Hank to take D-zone draws for starters. Which yes, he did a lot of with Sutter out.

 

No, it's not the only thing he does better and boy you're fixated on scoring. There's three zones on a hockey rink FYI.

 

That you think it was the best line in the playoffs explains a lot  Gee, put a bunch of 1st-2nd line talent on a 3rd line behind Crosby and Malkin against FAR lower QOC and lo and behold, they score! Shocking! 

 

That line specifically, who knows? I won't waste my time with what if's. I think Sutter can produce just fine playing with a good playmaking winger though (which he's never had FWIW). He has an excellent shot, is a tenacious puck hound and frequently gets to pucks with his skating.

 

It's all about chemistry, compatiblity, roles etc but I wouldn't expect you to grasp those subtler nuances...

[Stanley's Kup]

3 hours ago, elvis15 said:

As with many other posters in this thread, you've jumped in without realizing the article was satire and the site has already done the same for the two other teams to finish lower than the Canucks in the standing (i.e. the Leafs were the first article in the series).

 

So, I suggest you have a read through this thread and/or take a look at the sites other articles before you freak out comment.

It gave me another opportunity to slam the Leafs, looking for any excuse. 

[CanadianRugby]

Just now, 5Fivehole0 said:

Once again, points aren't everything.

True.  But they're the most important things for a forward.

 

Bonino wasn't good in the playoffs for Vancouver, which was a big reason why he was traded. 
By that argument the whole team should have been traded other than Edler & Tanev.

He was also brought over to run the 2nd PP unit, which he didn't. I'm glad Bones did well in Pittsburgh, but he wouldn't have had that success here.

Sutter won't have that success here (neither would have Bonino).  But at least Bonino had it in Pittsburgh.  Sutter won't have it here and wouldn't have had in in Pittsburgh either as he's not a setup guy and wouldn't have been setting Kessel up.  Also, the 2nd PP unit sucking is all on Bonino?  There are 4 other guys on the ice with him.