What's happening with this team? The new core is learning to win by themselves

[wallstreetamigo]

5 minutes ago, smokes said:

Yes, I've always been on that mindset. I'm just saying you can't discredit the veterans and that they help more than we know. What I don't get is the all or nothing fans who seem to be ready to pitch them out to pasture through early retirement or trade.

 

I amnot sure many are suggesting the all or nothing approach though. 

 

I I would not be upset to see the Sedins traded depending on the return of course. Dumping them for picks or long term prospects like Calgary did with Iginla makes no sense especially if we are retaining salary and/or taking back a $&!#ty contract.

[Baggins]

1 minute ago, wallstreetamigo said:

 

Thats why as coach I would try separating them while Baertschi is out. Teams would be forced to respect both lines ability to generate offense. A Sedin is still a Sedin after all.

 

I think the biggest misconception, and quite frankly insult, to the Sefins is that they can't play effectively without one another. Injuries over the years have certainly showed that this is, at least to some degree, not true.

 

When Henrik won the scoring title he was still over a point a game with Daniel out. One thing I noticed over the years is Daniel misses Henrik more than Henrik misses Daniel. In their prime both were still good when the other was injured but Henriks points per game was higher than Daniels when one was out. I agree with you that's it's flat out insulting to say they can't play without each other though.

[aGENT]

22 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said:

Thomas was the real difference in the series.

 

He had an unbelievable, more than career playoff... played way over his head.

 

Any team who ran into him would have had a problem.

 

Next year he sucked.

 

Having stellar D lead by Chara and a VERY good 2 way team in front of him didn't hurt either. 

 

They boxed us out relentlessly and then gave a ton of additional stick work etc when we would get inside.

 

Thomas played well but they sure did well to make his life as easy as the could. 

[chon derry]

3 minutes ago, EdgarM said:

 

There you go you said it, "they would be a dynamite second line". That is where they belong right now and could provide support to the young ones still.

 

1 hour ago, chon derry said:

this exactly...this post gets back to op's title , were seeing the sedins utilized the same way they've always been, were also witnessing the effectiveness of it drop, is it a lack of faith and trust from willy in the youth ,whats the message ? 'pay attention all you young guys there trying to do what they used to do'? the same can be said of elders utilization over used to the point of exhaustion, let the kids play !  i mean sitting on the bench witnessing the vets trying and failing being better than the young guns going out there and at least trying and failing?

im not at the free willy stage ....yet but the balance of this season and next year is probably enough for the young guys to step up into the leadership roles ,and it needs to happen! . is mng going to wait until the very last minute? sure some of this is on the young guys to step it up ,but given the un balanced toi we keep seeing this is were i start to wonder about the decision to play the vets in close games ,sure you want to win ,what coach/team doesn't but the young guns need more ice time especially at these crucial times, who knows maybe they run with it ,but how would any one know if not given the chance !

[wallstreetamigo]

2 minutes ago, Baggins said:

 

When Henrik won the scoring title he was still over a point a game with Daniel out. One thing I noticed over the years is Daniel misses Henrik more than Henrik misses Daniel. In their prime both were still good when the other was injured but Henriks points per game was higher than Daniels when one was out. I agree with you that's it's flat out insulting to say they can't play without each other though.

 

They have certainly been better together over the years. With both coming down to earth a bit at 36 years old though that gap may actually be shrinking.

 

I remember at the time thinking how dangerous Henrik looked without Daniel and sort of being surprised by it (in a good way).

 

Daniel has not been quite as effective without Henrik. He definitely plays a bit differently though. With his familiarity with Burrows and his somewhat underrated playmaking ability (overshadowed no doubt by Henrik's) I think he could be very effective on Horvats line. 

[DIBdaQUIB]

1 hour ago, WhoseTruckWasIt said:

So playing against a second pairing instead of a first just doesn't matter?  Are you serious?  That's an excuse?  Jeebus.

The Sedins were at their best when AV was able to line-match them with other teams' weaker lines.  AV managed the Sedins ice time very carefully with preferred o -zone starts, Pp time and line matching against weaker opposition.  Kesler carried the weight of defending other teams' best players as Sutter and Bo are required to do now.   It was a great strategy and maximized the effectiveness of the twins skill set but it also illustrated how they were specialists and always needed strong support from others carrying the heavy lifting for them to succeed.

[Baggins]

2 minutes ago, wallstreetamigo said:

 

They have certainly been better together over the years. With both coming down to earth a bit at 36 years old though that gap may actually be shrinking.

 

I remember at the time thinking how dangerous Henrik looked without Daniel and sort of being surprised by it (in a good way).

 

Daniel has not been quite as effective without Henrik. He definitely plays a bit differently though. With his familiarity with Burrows and his somewhat underrated playmaking ability (overshadowed no doubt by Henrik's) I think he could be very effective on Horvats line. 

 

Henrik shot more with Daniel out. That was his career high for goals. His shot is underrated because of his great passing ability. Daniel can be rather effective with any passer or shooter but is more dependant on another quality player. Henrik can set up an average player for easy goals and shoot himself. He was less dependant on the the quality of his wingers.

[LaBamba]

2 hours ago, SaintPatrick33 said:

 

This is a stupid argument, did you not see Crosby win key draws, or play the PK or make some great plays on the PP???  Does not even matter if he even scores points, he was named Conn Smythe because of his great play even without the puck. 

 

How much of a homer are you to diss Crosby? WOW. Go back to being a homer and @LaBamba's wife, you know nothing about hockey to diss Sid like this. The greatest player of our generation and you assign him secondary status? Are you dull bro?

 

 

 

Hey man, I don't like your tone towards my woman. Only I'm aloud to emotionally abuse her. 

[DIBdaQUIB]

37 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

 

That's actually a great example and affirms my post. 

The same happened with SId in international hockey but what you leave out is all the other things Sid contributed that were raved about by his teammates and the pundits...leadership, tenacity etc.  The difference is that when the twins don't score, they contribute nothing else.

[Baggins]

2 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

The Sedins were at their best when AV was able to line-match them with other teams' weaker lines.  AV managed the Sedins ice time very carefully with preferred o -zone starts, Pp time and line matching against weaker opposition.  Kesler carried the weight of defending other teams' best players as Sutter and Bo are required to do now.   It was a great strategy and maximized the effectiveness of the twins skill set but it also illustrated how they were specialists and always needed strong support from others carrying the heavy lifting for them to succeed.

 

Every coach does that his his top line. Most opposing coaches simply put their top defenders out for D zone starts on the road. At home they get to line match. This is nothing new in the league as most every coach tries to take advantage of zone starts and line matching.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

 

Henrik shot more with Daniel out. That was his career high for goals. His shot is underrated because of his great passing ability. Daniel can be rather effective with any passer or shooter but is more dependant on another quality player. Henrik can set up an average player for easy goals and shoot himself. He was less dependant on the the quality of his wingers.

 

Thats my point. Horvat would still be that quality player that helps Daniel and Henrik can be more aggressive himself. Just the improved defensive awareness of each set of linemates would allow the Sedins to play more aggressively individually.

[aGENT]

2 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

That's actually a great example and affirms my post. 

The same happened with SId in international hockey but what you leave out is all the other things Sid contributed that were raved about by his teammates and the pundits...leadership, tenacity etc.  The difference is that when the twins don't score, they contribute nothing else.

 

*Not actually true.

[wallstreetamigo]

1 minute ago, Baggins said:

 

Every coach does that his his top line. Most opposing coaches simply put their top defenders out for D zone starts on the road. At home they get to line match. This is nothing new in the league as most every coach tries to take advantage of zone starts and line matching.

 

Line matching is not something I would suggest is Desjardins strong suit. He seems a lot more neutral to it than AV was at least.

[Baggins]

Just now, wallstreetamigo said:

 

Line matching is not something I would suggest is Desjardins strong suit. He seems a lot more neutral to it than AV was at least.

 

He tends to roll lines, but takes advantage of zone starts. He has started line matching a little more than he did his first season. I noticed that as last season wore on.

[SaintPatrick33]

4 minutes ago, LaBamba said:

 

Hey man, I don't like your tone towards my woman. Only I'm aloud to emotionally abuse her. 

 

My apologies bro, I would not want to have a wife who disrespects Sid Crosby anyways, 

[DIBdaQUIB]

2 minutes ago, Baggins said:

 

Every coach does that his his top line. Most opposing coaches simply put their top defenders out for D zone starts on the road. At home they get to line match. This is nothing new in the league as most every coach tries to take advantage of zone starts and line matching.

Absolutely true.  My point is that the many top liners are able to provide better results and other value when not put in this situation while the Sedins are not.  I am not dissing on their abilities as offensive players or character as those are above reproach.  I am simply saying that strong leadership is more than that.  The Crosbys, Toews lead by example in all areas of the game. It's the old adage...great leaders never ask their troops to do anything they would not do themselves.  The Sedins require others to carry much of their load in order to be effective. 

 

As for the present...I would love to see them deployed in a secondary role with weaker opposition though I will admit, I do not know how you do that as they require preferential deployment to be effective and cover for their deficiencies.  This is the conundrum WD faces and what is perhaps holding back our younger guys from taking on a more offensive role.

[DIBdaQUIB]

7 minutes ago, J.R. said:

 

*Not actually true. IMHO.

^^Fixed.

 

I respectfully disagree. 

[aGENT]

9 minutes ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

^^Fixed.

 

I respectfully disagree. 

Yes well, respectfully, I'd wager more NHL players, coaches and management would agree with my opinion. 

[Pete M]

It's like in business, some companies have no succession planning in place. Therefore, the differences in generations adversely affect the company, rather than help the company.

For example, the grey hairs are holding onto their top end jobs and are waiting for retirement and not really grooming/ training the next generation.

This leaves a gap in experience when the grey hairs retire.

Good succession planning allows for a symbiotic relationship between the grey hairs and the next generation.

If the grey hairs know their job is to train and groom and they have the support of the company, then they are more willing to do the training and allow the next generation to have a chance to lead. It has to be a top down approach and everyone in the hiarchy chain needs to know and understand their role; but the roles have to be clearly stated and the actions must be consistent with the role.

How well a company or a team can transition between generations plays an important role to their successful performance.

[DIBdaQUIB]

2 minutes ago, J.R. said:

Yes well, respectfully, I'd wager more NHL players, coaches and management would agree with my opinion. 

As players and high character guys, yes...for leadership qualities, you are just expressing your opinion. 

 

My idea of a good leader is someone who carries their own load and at times that of others.