CeeBee51 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, WTG said: Lol, seriously, stop trying you are going to lose. Statistics aren't on your side. This isn't a video game either though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, Wise Owl said: Do these facts take into account that your job is to make sure McDavid, Getzlaff and Kopitar don't score from a faceoff in your own end, and that other players get to defend against less dangerous players and perhaps score so your team wins the game? Yeah, if we analyze players in shutdonw roles without considering the context of their play but look at shot attempt differential alone, we won't understand a thing about the value of a player. Manny Malhotra's corsi was in excess of -20 at times. However his ozone starts were as low as 13.2% - over an entire season - while his ozone finishes would typically be 20-30% higher than his starts. Who feasted off that territory he generated? Well, of course that would be the Sedins. Their possession numbers looked otherworldly at times, but they simply can't be separated from the opportunities that their team-mates generated for them. Analytics tend to over-rate offensive players and under-rate defensive ones - because they dwell far too much on singular possession metrics and fail to comprehend the much larger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, WTG said: Sutter's QoC shows that he's not actually facing top players most of the time. Doesn't Sutter take the vast majority of d-zone, right side face offs? And Bo takes the left side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, WTG said: Lol, seriously, stop trying you are going to lose. Statistics aren't on your side. You're not posting any statistics - you're posting pretentious graphs that aren't even devolved 'analytics'. If you have anything to say yourself - or any actual analytics to provide let me know - otherwise those useless sources you're posting are just that - and moreover, there is literally no evidence that you understand what they represent, let alone their limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, J.R. said: Where did I use corsi? I used statistics from this year primarily, IIRC. I used on the fly shifts to show that the idea that zone starts don't hold much water. Which they really don't. sure they effect possession if it's extreme but really not that much. Also, because I've used statistics of this year primarily, that means that the data that Johnson uses and the data that I use aren't the same. I'm arguing that this year Sutter has been bad, not that over the past few seasons Sutter's been bad. In fact, if you look at Johnson he uses GA60 data, which I also used to make a case for why Sutter is bad. But if you look at my data that I've used I also use GA60 where he ranks at the bottom of all these lists. See when Johnson says this: "I don’t know about you but I have a really difficult time calling a player that is always, consistently every year, near the top of his team in lowest goals against average a below replacement level defensive player. " I can say well this year he ranks near the bottom of GA60, so the only string that holds him up from being a sub-replacement level player was his GA60 which has been hot garbage this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, oldnews said: You're not posting any statistics - you're posting pretentious graphs that aren't even devolved 'analytics'. If you have anything to say yourself - or any actual analytics to provide let me know - otherwise those useless sources you're posting are just that - and moreover, there is literally no evidence that you understand what they represent, let alone their limits. Are you unable to read graphs with statistics on them? I showed you statistical data, you shrug them off because they aren't in written form? Is this a joke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, WTG said: Sutter's QoC shows that he's not actually facing top players most of the time. Again - you've posted nothing but an unsubstantiated and uninformed opinion. Go ahead and post his actual qoc - broken down into the context of his various linemates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, Alflives said: Doesn't Sutter take the vast majority of d-zone, right side face offs? And Bo takes the left side. I can't prove this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, WTG said: Where did I use corsi? I used statistics from this year primarily, IIRC. I used on the fly shifts to show that the idea that zone starts don't hold much water. Which they really don't. sure they effect possession if it's extreme but really not that much. Also, because I've used statistics of this year primarily, that means that the data that Johnson uses and the data that I use aren't the same. I'm arguing that this year Sutter has been bad, not that over the past few seasons Sutter's been bad. In fact, if you look at Johnson he uses GA60 data, which I also used to make a case for why Sutter is bad. But if you look at my data that I've used I also use GA60 where he ranks at the bottom of all these lists. See when Johnson says this: "I don’t know about you but I have a really difficult time calling a player that is always, consistently every year, near the top of his team in lowest goals against average a below replacement level defensive player. " I can say well this year he ranks near the bottom of GA60, so the only string that holds him up from being a sub-replacement level player was his GA60 which has been hot garbage this year. Context. 7 hours ago, J.R. said: I'd wager a lot of that has to do with his somewhat erratic usage, injuries, line mates etc. He was used more in a scoring role when with the twins which would explain some of the 'career highs in scoring' and 'terrible on-ice goals metrics' in a more offensive role. With injuries to key 2-way players like Hansen and our top 2 D, and the all rookie D core... likely hasn't helped his defensive metrics either. Add in the revolving door of wingers while WD attempts to find someone to play with the twins with Hansen/Dorsett out and (appolgies to Megna but...) AHL level guys and you can understand why he's been an 'enigma'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, J.R. said: Context. You know what, that's absolutely a fine argument to take. And I respect that you've taken to add context to the situation that is relevant. But all these are just hypothetical situations that "could" have an effect on a player. But yeah, that is a argument you can make legitimately, you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, WTG said: I can't prove this Just watching, unless a centre gets trapped out on an icing that's Willies usual go to. Many times I see Sutter or Bo out without their usual linemates, just for the faceoff. Maybe there is a stat showing this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Googlie Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 6 hours ago, on the cycle said: Yeah because Willie was trying to give Bo less defensive responsibility. However Sutter has gotten more PP time than Bo. Sutter does struggle to keep possession. I don't hate Sutter but what people think he is, isn't what he is. Sutter is a defensive center that can play on the PP, and there is nothing wrong with that it's just not enough for how much money he makes. He is/was a damn fine winger with the twins, putting up good numbers until Coach realized his f/o prowess was being wasted taking just 1/2 the top lines' draws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, WTG said: Are you unable to read graphs with statistics on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, oldnews said: Again - you've posted nothing but an unsubstantiated and uninformed opinion. Go ahead and post his actual qoc - broken down into the context of his various linemates. Here is QoC data that shows that his QoC is being balanced out by his QoT You can look at them yourself if you are interested http://www.corsica.hockey/skaters/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, oldnews said: i have been involved in generating reports using pie charts and graphs it is a very interesting way to hide or neutralize less pleasant data just saying without the details they are just pretty to look at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeeBee51 Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 5 minutes ago, oldnews said: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm pie Apple or punkin? edit: of course... green apple, blueberry and cherry ...Sweeeeet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewbieCanuckFan Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, oldnews said: I'm partial to cherry pie myself....oops, wrong forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Just now, CeeBee51 said: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm pie Apple or punkin? I like strawberry rhubarb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 Just now, oldnews said: I like strawberry rhubarb. so if it is strawberry rhubarb does that mean bo is good ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 1 minute ago, coastal.view said: so if it is strawberry rhubarb does that mean bo is good ? real Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.