Will a dearth of offence from bottom-six forwards doom Canadian teams?

[Monteeun]

I think this article can be in Canuck talk...i think

 

 

Montreal and Edmonton have had awful starts to the season. Calgary and Winnipeg had sleepy starts, but now see themselves in the middle of the pack in their respective divisions. Ottawa is off and running – their 12 points in nine games is seventh best in the NHL, and most of that was without superstar defenceman Karlsson .

 

Toronto and Vancouver have been fine on this front. The other five Canadian teams, not so much. Don’t strain your eyes looking for Edmonton and Winnipeg – their number is actually 0.0, so they don’t appear on the graph.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/will-a-dearth-of-offence-from-bottom-six-forwards-doom-canadian-teams-1.896818

 

 

I'm just glad there are some positives coming out of Vancouver...kind of nice to hear

[kloubek]

This is what happens when you have a GM that understands the benefit of depth.

 

Earlier on, a lot of people were upset with Benning because he didn't turn around the ship immediately.  But the fact is, our cupboards were bare.  Besides that, turning around a franchise is a lot of work and takes time.

 

He started trying to keep us competitive, as ownership wanted.  Then he started building a good *complimentary* team, picking up assets and drafting guys who may or may not have been able to move up the lineup but are at least likely to play in the NHL in some capacity.  And we now have a bunch of such players - so much so that we end up sitting guys or keeping them in Utica even though they are fully capable of playing in the NHL.

 

So now we are just beginning to reap the rewards of his vision, have scoring throughout the lineup, and can truly roll 4 lines and let the bottom six actually produce.  Having a suddenly hot Dorsett doesn't hurt. The only reason we are mid-pack is thanks to players who are underproducing for their skill level. Any team that has aspirations for the cup NEEDS to have a productive bottom six. Due to injury if nothing else, you just can't rely on just a couple of lines providing points.

I started praising Benning a couple of years back for doing what he was doing, though I was always (and still am to a small degree) concerned on how he intended to get the elite talent we need in the top six in order to be a cup-contending team. However, the REST of the team was never in question in my mind and I saw what he was trying to accomplish right away.  So now that part is complete and it shows.  We just need the stars - either from within or otherwise.  And if the latter, we now have trade bait to provide without decimating the team if that is the route he chooses to go.

[Blömqvist]

Interesting in the Canucks case how they determine bottom 6 forwards according to 5 vs 5 ice time. According to that, Vancouver's bottom 6F consists of Daniel and Henrik Sedin, Virtanen, Gagner, Vanek, and Burmistrov.

 

 

[ruilin96]

Let’s look at it from a team to team basis from West to East:

 

Vancouver: we definitely have one of the more balanced line ups and the differential in skill between our 1st to our 4th lines are not as wide as other teams. Problem is we don’t have a real elite number 1 line this season; it depends on which line plays better ona night to night basis to decide which is the first line. Good depth and balance scoring among bottom 6, but no elite offensive threat.

 

Calgary: as much as I hate them, I think their forward Group is pretty deep and the bottom 6 is definitely better on paper than their performance shown. Having a veteran wingers such as Brouwer and Versteeg on the bottom third line is nothing to snooze at (Brouwer doesn’t live up to his contract but as a 3rd line winger he does bring some grit and scoring depth).  They need to get “18-year-old” Sam Bennett going though; Since they do have a clear 1st line and a very good 2nd line, i think as the season progress, they will be fine and scoring shouldn’t be much of a problem for them especially with a lot of puck moving D in Giodano, Hamilton and Brodie. 

 

Edmonton: Outside of their top 6, I don’t see their bottom 6 has much scoring (and looking at their stats, it’s bacially outside of their first line there’s a huge drop in production). Kassian can get hot, but he is a streaky player. Letestu gets most of his goals on the power play. Caggiula (I remember CDC’s reaction when he chose the oilers ahead of us and said how we really lost out on him) has skill but his size suggests to me that he won’t last in a bottom 6 role at the NHL long term. This team definitely have scoring woes not only among their bottom 6 but from 2nd line onward they have not have established any offensive threat. Maybe they do miss Eberle more than they anticipated.

 

Winnipeg: Similar to Calgary, have a clear cut 1st line and a good 2nd line. Their bottom 6 should be able to score a bit more than they have already shown, but this team doesn’t built their bottom 6 for scoring depth, rather is to play a gritty checking role. As of this season, I think they won’t get a lot more scoring from their bottom 6 than they already shown, but they should still be able score a bit more than they have shown.

 

Toronto: They have 3 scoring lines and is a team that can score at will. I don’t know which is the 3rd line, would it be the Bozak line or the Kadri line. Even if their fourth line is made up of plugs like Marin, (I know Marner is on it now but don’t see him there long term), with the lines they already have in their top 9, scoring is least to worry about. They should be concern on how to keep the puck out of their net.

 

Ottawa: A very good 4 line team, and I love the way Boucher has bought a system for the team to work together. A bottom 6 made up of players like Alex Burrows and Nate Thompson is perfect. They are solid at their own end and can also scored an odd goal or two to tip the momentum. Their top 2 line mainly made up of snipers, and there are enough grit and scoring among the bottom 6, if it’s not for their brutal shootout record, they would of had a lot more points than now.

 

Montreal: This team has been criticized to earth for their lack of offence to start the year. They are underperforming and have a bit of tough luck with their terrible shooting percentage. Their top 6 should be able to snap out from their dry spells soon, but bottom 6, I don’t see a lot of offence from that group. With such terrible start, they are at risk of missing the playoffs.

[IBatch]

22 minutes ago, Blömqvist said:

Interesting in the Canucks case how they determine bottom 6 forwards according to 5 vs 5 ice time. According to that, Vancouver's bottom 6F consists of Daniel and Henrik Sedin, Virtanen, Gagner, Vanek, and Burmistrov.

 

 

And it holds to scrunity.  Our lineup confuses writers in trying to figure out which line is 1-4, Green said it best in he doesn't believe in labels.  It's appropriate for the way he's playing them, and part of the success is definitely on the coach.  Also it could be argued that aside from only a few players, the rest are bottom six guys on any team, most of them very good bottom six much like Vegas ( Neal is the only true top six guy).

 

Let's hope the winning continues, the more Canadian teams that make the playoffs the better.

[-AJ-]

It's somewhat difficult to classify this as it can be difficult to determine which players are in the bottom six. Still, even at the beginning of the season, I felt that our depth was surprisingly effective and might launch us surprisingly close to playoff contention. We'll see. It looks good so far.

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, ruilin96 said:

Let’s look at it from a team to team basis from West to East:

 

Vancouver: we definitely have one of the more balanced line ups and the differential in skill between our 1st to our 4th lines are not as wide as other teams. Problem is we don’t have a real elite number 1 line this season; it depends on which line plays better ona night to night basis to decide which is the first line. Good depth and balance scoring among bottom 6, but no elite offensive threat.

 

Calgary: as much as I hate them, I think their forward Group is pretty deep and the bottom 6 is definitely better on paper than their performance shown. Having a veteran wingers such as Brouwer and Versteeg on the bottom third line is nothing to snooze at (Brouwer doesn’t live up to his contract but as a 3rd line winger he does bring some grit and scoring depth).  They need to get “18-year-old” Sam Bennett going though; Since they do have a clear 1st line and a very good 2nd line, i think as the season progress, they will be fine and scoring shouldn’t be much of a problem for them especially with a lot of puck moving D in Giodano, Hamilton and Brodie. 

 

Edmonton: Outside of their top 6, I don’t see their bottom 6 has much scoring (and looking at their stats, it’s bacially outside of their first line there’s a huge drop in production). Kassian can get hot, but he is a streaky player. Letestu gets most of his goals on the power play. Caggiula (I remember CDC’s reaction when he chose the oilers ahead of us and said how we really lost out on him) has skill but his size suggests to me that he won’t last in a bottom 6 role at the NHL long term. This team definitely have scoring woes not only among their bottom 6 but from 2nd line onward they have not have established any offensive threat. Maybe they do miss Eberle more than they anticipated.

 

Winnipeg: Similar to Calgary, have a clear cut 1st line and a good 2nd line. Their bottom 6 should be able to score a bit more than they have already shown, but this team doesn’t built their bottom 6 for scoring depth, rather is to play a gritty checking role. As of this season, I think they won’t get a lot more scoring from their bottom 6 than they already shown, but they should still be able score a bit more than they have shown.

 

Toronto: They have 3 scoring lines and is a team that can score at will. I don’t know which is the 3rd line, would it be the Bozak line or the Kadri line. Even if their fourth line is made up of plugs like Marin, (I know Marner is on it now but don’t see him there long term), with the lines they already have in their top 9, scoring is least to worry about. They should be concern on how to keep the puck out of their net.

 

Ottawa: A very good 4 line team, and I love the way Boucher has bought a system for the team to work together. A bottom 6 made up of players like Alex Burrows and Nate Thompson is perfect. They are solid at their own end and can also scored an odd goal or two to tip the momentum. Their top 2 line mainly made up of snipers, and there are enough grit and scoring among the bottom 6, if it’s not for their brutal shootout record, they would of had a lot more points than now.

 

Montreal: This team has been criticized to earth for their lack of offence to start the year. They are underperforming and have a bit of tough luck with their terrible shooting percentage. Their top 6 should be able to snap out from their dry spells soon, but bottom 6, I don’t see a lot of offence from that group. With such terrible start, they are at risk of missing the playoffs.

Toronto would be a perfect trading partner if they want to tighten up defense with a guy like Tanev.  Affordable contract, and good return...with their embarrassment of riches upfront it would be awesome to pick off one of those guys, preferably Marner who is going through a tough patch, at least by Babcock's eyes.   We'd probably have to add a pick, and of course it's tough for us to lose a guy like that with no obvious guys in the system, but we survive without him and Edler for stretches anyways.  I can't help wondering how Kapanen will work out.  He's buried so deep in their prospect pool with youth throughout the lineup already that he won't get his chance for a while yet, but think when he does he might excel like Nylander and Marner.  

 

Ottawa is the real deal right now.  Guys like Stone and Hoffman don't get the league wide recognition like other guys with similar stats, but that will likely change this year.  Karlsson is God like in his abilities to both shut down and provide offense,  ( check out his blocked shots you might be surprised to see his name at the top) and just control the outcome of a game like nobody not named Crosby, better IMO because he doesn't have other superstars to rely on him day in day out.

 

I think Ottawa is the best bet right now for a Canadian team to win the cup, would be great to see them play TO this year or even MTL, hopefully in the 2 or 3 round.  Imagine if they won the Tavares game this summer...

[Vinny in Vancouver]

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

Excellent post Monteeun.....definite food for thought.   MTL is in the worst shape imho.   They are literally a chicken running around with its head loped off.  The rest of their division is not fairing much better except for OTT but it is little consolation that the team has been in its death throws for almost 3 seasons already. If there is ONE team in Canada that needs to start a full REBUILD it is MTL.

 

 

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

30 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Toronto would be a perfect trading partner if they want to tighten up defense with a guy like Tanev.  Affordable contract, and good return...with their embarrassment of riches upfront it would be awesome to pick off one of those guys, preferably Marner who is going through a tough patch, at least by Babcock's eyes.   We'd probably have to add a pick, and of course it's tough for us to lose a guy like that with no obvious guys in the system, but we survive without him and Edler for stretches anyways.  I can't help wondering how Kapanen will work out.  He's buried so deep in their prospect pool with youth throughout the lineup already that he won't get his chance for a while yet, but think when he does he might excel like Nylander and Marner.  

 

Ottawa is the real deal right now.  Guys like Stone and Hoffman don't get the league wide recognition like other guys with similar stats, but that will likely change this year.  Karlsson is God like in his abilities to both shut down and provide offense,  ( check out his blocked shots you might be surprised to see his name at the top) and just control the outcome of a game like nobody not named Crosby, better IMO because he doesn't have other superstars to rely on him day in day out.

 

I think Ottawa is the best bet right now for a Canadian team to win the cup, would be great to see them play TO this year or even MTL, hopefully in the 2 or 3 round.  Imagine if they won the Tavares game this summer...

Honestly this trade Tanev stuff is lunacy. The man is our best D man we  NEED HIM to anchor our D.   

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, Mr.DirtyDangles said:

Honestly this trade Tanev stuff is lunacy. The man is our best D man we  NEED HIM to anchor our D.   

It's not lunacy from a rebuild point of view if we get somebody 18-21 with skills.   From a win now viewpoint yes, it's going to hurt.   

[Rocksterh8]

Way too early for this kinda talk, give it 40 games and you'll see a much different standings.

[189lb enforcers?]

What goes up...

 

 

Lots of seasons start like this, where great teams seem in a mess and crap teams go on a tear. Nothing to see here, if you've been around a while, this is normal. Even DD type stories are normal. 

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

41 minutes ago, IBatch said:

It's not lunacy from a rebuild point of view if we get somebody 18-21 with skills.   From a win now viewpoint yes, it's going to hurt.   

That I understand but we are past major rebuild we are now in a forward transition into actually competing slightly again. We need a solid base and he is that ROCK SOLID BASE : D

[189lb enforcers?]

42 minutes ago, IBatch said:

It's not lunacy from a rebuild point of view if we get somebody 18-21 with skills.   From a win now viewpoint yes, it's going to hurt.   

"There will be pain"

[Kragar]

2 hours ago, vinny_in_vancouver said:

Don't care what the topic is, that pic is plus-worthy anytime.

[xereau]

A dearth of people knowing what dearth means will definitely lessen the interest in this post.  Definitely.

 

[kloubek]

3 hours ago, Mr.DirtyDangles said:

Honestly this trade Tanev stuff is lunacy. The man is our best D man we  NEED HIM to anchor our D.   

As mentioned by someone else, its all about what teams need right now.

 

Right now, Toronto looks poised for a playoff run.  Tanev would be a huge addition for them.  

 

I do love Tanev, and believe his defensive game is truly elite.  But he isnt getting any younger and has started to show some injury concerns.  Lets face it, even if we squeaked into the playoffs we ain't going far this year and next season will be much of the same.  If we managed to snag a guy like Marner in return, he will have a couple of more years under his belt and coming into his own around the same time the Canucks will be doing the same overall.  I believe he has elite potential and acquiring him eliminates the necessity for Pettersson to reach his potential.  (And if he does, then we trade him for another elite and younger defenseman).

 

Honestly, I think such a trade would benefit both clubs for what they need right now.  We don't need elite players now, and quite honestly Tanevs talents are being wasted here.

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

17 minutes ago, kloubek said:

As mentioned by someone else, its all about what teams need right now.

 

Right now, Toronto looks poised for a playoff run.  Tanev would be a huge addition for them.  

 

I do love Tanev, and believe his defensive game is truly elite.  But he isnt getting any younger and has started to show some injury concerns.  Lets face it, even if we squeaked into the playoffs we ain't going far this year and next season will be much of the same.  If we managed to snag a guy like Marner in return, he will have a couple of more years under his belt and coming into his own around the same time the Canucks will be doing the same overall.  I believe he has elite potential and acquiring him eliminates the necessity for Pettersson to reach his potential.  (And if he does, then we trade him for another elite and UNPROVEN younger defenseman).

 

Honestly, I think such a trade would benefit both clubs for what they need right now.  We don't need elite players now, and quite honestly Tanevs talents are being wasted here.

I am sorry but this is just ridiculous to me. HE is not worth more to another team, he  is worth the most to this team. WE need his skills to get better overall. The younger D will benefit from his amazing calm and composed zone play. Who will teach that to Stecther n Hutty and who ever else is willing to learn ?  This is like listening to fLAMES fans saying trade Iggy when he was a beast year in and year out.

 

Just stop

[Western Red]

5 minutes ago, Mr.DirtyDangles said:

I am sorry but this is just ridiculous to me. HE is not worth more to another team, he  is worth the most to this team. WE need his skills to get better overall. The younger D will benefit from his amazing calm and composed zone play. Who will teach that to Stecther n Hutty and who ever else is willing to learn ?  This is like listening to fLAMES fans saying trade Iggy when he was a beast year in and year out.

 

Just stop

I see good points in both arguments. It depends of course if we could get a 1st plus a top TML prospect. Deadline move depending on where we are. Its an idea that's definitely on the table.

 

But the depth for us just isn't there, we need to keep Tanev because we lost Tryamkin (for now). Both Stech and Hutton aren't anyhing close to defensive stalwarts. Thank sweet baby Jesus that Guddy is around.